Another morbid post...

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MissCandy

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I was just wondering how much bute per day you would consider an acceptable amount to keep a horse with long term lameness issues comfortable before thinking that it is morally wrong and the horse would be better off pts?

I have a reason for asking obviously :(
 
Personally, for me, if I was having to bute a large amount every single day, then I would pick a day in a few weeks time to PTS. But thats because I would be worried about causing more pain by the amount causing liver damage.

But I would talk to the vet about that as I don't know how much/how long that would take. The rest would depend on the look in their eye. Hope you're ok. xxx
 
^^^^that - but I'd aim for more than a few weeks as one of the things about liver damage is that they don't notice it until the damage is bad - so I'd be expecting months pain-free. I'd rely heavily on the light in the eye though.
 
Very interested in this thread as I have a simillar problem. He's not really comfy on one, and fine on 2, but it all seems so futile.
 
Not sure if this will help and I really feel for you, very hard choice to make. My best freind went through a similar thing with her mare a couple of years ago and the choice she made was that if she could not live comfotabley in her field with out being on bute every day then there was only one option. I think the best thing would be to talk to your vet but don't forget you know your horse best and you will know when the time is right, my view is it all comes down to quality of life, I know i don't know you but feel I want to send you lots of hugs, not nice situation.
 
2/3 per day and only short term.

I watched a woman on our yard use 5 a day!! The pony itself looked like the walking dead and like it was willing to give up. It stopped eating in the end. IMO she kept that pony going for 6 months too long for her own benefit.

Sorry about your situation.
 
Am in same situation but my horse is on danilon which does the same kind of thng as bute but without the same high risk of liver damage with long term use.

My boy is on half a day at the moment. A couple of times I've given him a bit extra. I don't think I'd be happy if I had to give him two sachets a day.

I would talk to your vet about the long term effects of the specific drug you've been given and the maximum "recommended" dosages. If the maximum isn't enough then pts. But if the maximum is doing the trick, and the drug itself has low risk at that dosage then so long as the horse is healthy in other respects.

How old is the horse?
 
She is 14.

She has arthritis. The thing is she has detoriated rapidly over the last 6 months - this time last year she didn't need anything. She has been in a field with a few of her 'friends' over the last couple of months and is quite happy.

It became apparent how bad she is though when she got an abscess last week and couldn't stand to be on 3 legs while polticed. She is now on double the dose of bute (4 a day :() which was obviously only going to be VERY short term but its like she has a new lease of life galloping around like a 2 year old!

Next summer she will be with new horses and I am concerned she won't be able to get out of the way fast enough if one gets nasty or that she won't be able to keep up with the herd. I don't want to watch that.

She is already booked for the hunt next week but I am seriously starting to panic and I've started to think a few more months on bute won't hurt but then whats the point putting her through winter to only be in the same position?
 
^^ to me i always think you should let them go a day earlier than later.

sorry for your situation, if shes on 4 now... i would be letting her go sooner rather than later while shes happy.
 
I haven't been in this position so can only give my view on what I *think* I would do.
If my pony had to be on bute longterm to be comfortable, then I think at that point, that would be the end as without it, she would be suffering so although she may not be suffering with it, as you say it's so difficult to say when enough is enough.

If it was over summer, a few old ponies, the yards I've been on, have given them a summer of pampering and TLC and lots of grass and then had them pts before they've had to struggle through a winter. If it was this time of year, then I would be seriously thinking of PTS but that is just my humble opinion. :)
 
why make her suffer a cold, hard - grounded, miserable winter, only for her to really struggle and be pts at the end of it?

I think you would be very selfless and 100% right to have her pts now, while is still managing, is painfree due to the bute, and is still relativley happy.

Thoughts are with you, and i hope you get enough replies on this topic to make you feel like you are doing the right thing
 
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What an awful situation for you :(

4 a day is an awful lot IMO, and as the saying goes, and I stand by this...

Better a month too soon, than a day too late

Hugs to you x
 
I would never want to keep a horse on even 1 bute a day long term to be honest. We did it many years ago (before we knew better) for my pony who had bone spavin. However, he developed photosensitisation as a result of liver damage and reaction with the sun. We took him off the bute.

He was only really stiff, just one hind affected so was still ridden and competed. However at one point he was pretty crippled a few weeks following a crashing fall in the water at a xc (his brakes left a little to be desired!!!) and we really thought there was nothing we could do for him - assumed his arthritis had just got too much.

However, we called out a very could back person (Janet Ellis) just to see if she could relieve him a little. Se came out and basically said his muscles were so tight all over. to cut a long story short, although his fall had been a factor, alot of the issues were due to him compensating for his spavin and causing stiffness over the rest of his body. She treated him twice over a 2 week period and the difference was amazing, he was sounder than he'd been for years, even when on the bute.

It may be worthwhile just having someone (chiro) out to check over your mare - obviously the arthritis will not go away but she may be making herself worse by compensating for the arthritis which in turn can cause issues elsewhere. I am certainly not saying this is 100% going to work but it could help. If not though I would seriously consider the mare's quality of lifeand sadly you may have to make the ultimate decision but you will know what is the right thing to do. I don't think horses should be kept alive on drugs just for our benefit.
 
Thank you all.

I know you're right I'm just having a major wobble at the moment...its so hard.

I only started giving her 4 a day so I could treat the abscess but it is clear this is the amount she needs from the youngster she has become over the last few days. If it was the start of summer I'd dearly like to let her (or should that be me...) have a bit longer but I know she will only get worse in the winter :(
 
MissCandy said:
She is 14.

She has arthritis. The thing is she has detoriated rapidly over the last 6 months - this time last year she didn't need anything. She has been in a field with a few of her 'friends' over the last couple of months and is quite happy.

It became apparent how bad she is though when she got an abscess last week and couldn't stand to be on 3 legs while polticed. She is now on double the dose of bute (4 a day :() which was obviously only going to be VERY short term but its like she has a new lease of life galloping around like a 2 year old!

Next summer she will be with new horses and I am concerned she won't be able to get out of the way fast enough if one gets nasty or that she won't be able to keep up with the herd. I don't want to watch that.

She is already booked for the hunt next week but I am seriously starting to panic and I've started to think a few more months on bute won't hurt but then whats the point putting her through winter to only be in the same position?
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The 'new lease of life'...its because of the bute. If you were on that many painkillers you would be like that too. Its a 'false positive' as my old vet would say. Stop the bute and she will be worse than ever.
The fact you have her booked in to the hunt is the telltale sign that you feel she is ready to go. You are just being human, analysing everyting the 'what if's' as no one wants to put a horse down. I think you know the right thing.
 
I long time ago I worked in a yard where the owners horse had contracted navicular disease at the age of 4, she was well into her 20's and had been on 2 bute a day since she was 4.

She became ill and later died of liver failure at the age of 25, although the vet at the time did say it was nothing to do with the fact she had been on bute for 20 odd years.
 
Agree with all the above.

Give her her last week on loads of bute, galloping about like a 2 year old, enjoying her last few days and then say goodbye knowing that you have done exactly the right thing by her and that she went out on a high, albeit an artificial and unsustainable one!

Will be thinking of you xxx
 
Interesting question, and one I've asked recently (to my vet) too. My chap is on 2 per day (down from 4), and will be on 2 until he needs to up the dose, or a miracle happens. He's just 12, and the bute is down to onset of arthritis in his pastern joints. I also use magnetic boots on him. I asked my vet the same question, as I would prefer him to go a day early than a day later, and he said IHHO 2 was nothing. I thought it was alot. It does depend on the size of horse also, which I hadn't considered! I did try to lessen his dose to 1 (before the conversation), and after 5 days I could tell he wasn't as comfortable. Not much help I guess :-( but if anyone has any comments, welcomed!
 
I don't think this is a morbid thread, merely one that owners face every day, from the answers there are several people in the same boat debating options.

Sorry, I wouldn't give bute at all. If a horse needs drugs to get through the day, every day, forever, then I would pts.

In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, it is just delaying the inevitable and sooner is kinder than later. My Vet also happens to agree with this.
 
enfys said:
I don't think this is a morbid thread, merely one that owners face every day, from the answers there are several people in the same boat debating options.

Sorry, I wouldn't give bute at all. If a horse needs drugs to get through the day, every day, forever, then I would pts.

In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, it is just delaying the inevitable and sooner is kinder than later. My Vet also happens to agree with this.
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Actually... I agree with you. However, P would do what he does with or without the bute, even vet is of the opinion he is so stubborn and stoic (sp) about the fact he HAS a degree of pain, he hides it. With his size, the amount he is on is comparatively minimal, but if I/we feel he is getting worse, and it has to be consistently 'upped', then I WILL look at PTS, for his sake not mine. Not because its the easy option, or he's not useful,... he doesn't get ridden, he NEEDS to be ridden ideally... but because I agree, long term heavy drug use is no good for him. As long as he is happy and obviously content, then i'll continue. Hope that all makes sense!
 
s14tobin said:
As long as he is happy and obviously content, then i'll continue. Hope that all makes sense!
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This ^ is absolutely the thing, only an owner or long term handler can know an individual, and they alone know when a horse has had enough.

What gets me, and this is a general observation, not directed at anyone (why do I always feel obliged to write 'disclaimers'?) is those who cannot bring themselves to book the day, and put it off and off for their own selfish benefit, not the welfare of the animal in their care.
 
My retired girl who was recently PTS (following my decision) was on 1 bute a day for a few years with no problems from it. She lived a very happy retirement and I chose to have her PTS when she began to look miserable, I picked the right time.

I have to say that I am certainly glad I didn't put her to sleep a few years ago just because she needed bute, I knew the horse and I know she enjoyed life until the end. I gave her extra bute in her last week before the day came.

I do agree that 4 a day is certainly too much to keep a horse on for a long term basis, I worried about the 1 a day but it worked out OK.
 
enfys said:
This ^ is absolutely the thing, only an owner or long term handler can know an individual, and they alone know when a horse has had enough.

What gets me, and this is a general observation, not directed at anyone (why do I always feel obliged to write 'disclaimers'?) is those who cannot bring themselves to book the day, and put it off and off for their own selfish benefit, not the welfare of the animal in their care.
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Completely agree. When that day comes, i will arrage it without guilt... it will be me missing him.. but knowing I'm doing it FOR him. If that makes sense!

With him, he is a BIG lad, and to make him walk round in discomfort would be unforgiveable. But while he is as he is now, with him arthritis being caught SO early, purely because I know him So well... I'm completely happy to justify the fact he's on 2 a day... he's about 800kg in weight, 1 wouldn't touch the sides :-)
 
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