Another potential horse another disaster!

[I love my Spanish horse]

So those of you that have been following this must be horse number 16378 that has either been not as described, majorly blemished (looking for show m&m) nutty or the owner decided they wanted to keep it at the last minute.
Anyway finally thought I'd found the 'one'. He was a bit greener than I'd hoped and a stallion so I'd have had to change yards, but absolutely stunning, brilliant Inhand show record, blemish free and a really nice person.
Got as far as vetting and passed with only a couple of minor things like thrush, bit overweight and under muscled etc. One thing vet did note however is that yard was full of ragwort, we didn't see fields when we were down but he described it as being like a ragwort farm. On this info we decided to send the bloods he took off to be screened for liver disease, vet didn't sound overly worried said there was plenty of grass out there and pony was displaying no outward symptoms.
Anyway got results back today and he's literally just on the border of normal (10-15 is normal, he was 24 and above 25 is considered liver disease) vet said he'd clearly ingested some ragwort (no **** Sherlock!) but it necessarily wouldn't stop him buying him as long as management obviously changed and made aware of risk.
I've had a think, chat with trainer and OH and decided to leave it. Losing £500 of vetting and deposit is nothing compared to what it could cost and after the navicular horse I had last thing I need is another walking vets bill. Am now feeling really guilty though, he's not that expensive (£4.5k) might be ok as still young and not wanting to blow my trumpet will have a better chance with me than at that place.
The other thing that sprung to mind is should I report this yard to council, defra etc? Owner said he's only been on field an hour a day a couple of days a week for 6 months or so. Which may well not be true judging by there standards and morals but if it is can't imagine the damage being done to the other horses that have been out for longer and more often. It's a livery yard of sorts albeit with pretty poor facilities, obviously if I'd have seen state of fields when I viewed wouldn't have got this far but now I feel I have a duty of care to him and the other poor ponies there. Thoughts much appreciated. X

 

[shadowboy]

Wow there must have been either very little grass. Do you know where they sourced their hay as its more palatable in hay. Would the seller have take. A substantial cut off the price? I'm guessing he will be readvertised with no mention of his underlying issues.

 

[CMcC]

I think you did the right thing walking away, hard but saved yourself possible heartache and cost in the future.
Yes I thing you should report it because it is not only horses on their own land they are putting at risk but ragwort travels so neighbours who keep their fields clear will get seeds blown in and so the problem spreads.

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

Wow there must have been either very little grass. Do you know where they sourced their hay as its more palatable in hay. Would the seller have take. A substantial cut off the price? I'm guessing he will be readvertised with no mention of his underlying issues.

I don't know where they cut the hay tbh. Vet said there was grass but clearly he's been eating the ragwort for the tests to come back how they did. I haven't asked about the price but sent a long winded text about the results and pleading with her to take him off field until sorted which had no response to, she usually replies within minutes. Adverts still live and shes also got £200 deposit that I guess am not gonna see again.

 

[shadowboy]

I don't know where they cut the hay tbh. Vet said there was grass but clearly he's been eating the ragwort for the tests to come back how they did. I haven't asked about the price but sent a long winded text about the results and pleading with her to take him off field until sorted which had no response to, she usually replies within minutes. Adverts still live and shes also got £200 deposit that I guess am not gonna see again.

Oh no! She should give you the deposit back if it was subject to vetting! Well at least you knew and had the opportunity to get out of it - likelihood is because vet was aware it would be on vet certificate and therefore exempt from his insurance. Poor horse.

 

[the shadster]

Sorry not an answer to your question but well done the vet in this instance. Good call.

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

Sorry not an answer to your question but well done the vet in this instance. Good call.

The vet said he wouldn't necessarily sway me from buying the horse, that it was my call. To me I was almost sure there and then even though the results were borderline that it was just too big a risk, and talking to trainer and partner just further validated my thinking. Don't get me wrong am very grateful for the vet picking up the ragwort and allowing the blood sample to be used for a different purpose than it was intended, I just disagreed in that as hard as it is to walk away it's 100% the right thing, just maybe not for the poor horse

 

[chillipup]

Is this a young horse? Can liver problems be reversed with good care/proper forage, in horses? Just wondering as can't human livers improve if intake of any poisonous substances stopped?/reversed (ie alcohol?)

 

[Equi]

Considering the liver is the only organ to regenerate, thus has a higher ability to heal, you might have cut your nose off. Poor horse only getting extremely limited turnout though. Some stallions really have a tough life. Was he even stallion worthy or just kept entire to show better?

 

[CMcC]

Is this a young horse? Can liver problems be reversed with good care/proper forage, in horses? Just wondering as can't human livers improve if intake of any poisonous substances stopped?/reversed (ie alcohol?)

Damage to the liver from ragwort is not reversible and is cumulative, so if the horse ingests any more ragwort the damage will add to what is already there.

 

[Goldenstar]

You have done the right thing walking away .
The damage from ragwort never recovers and all it would take would be something like an accident needing lots of vet imput and medication and you might have a heartbreaking disaster .
On the deposit of course you must get it back if she won't return it take her to the small claims court and armed with the blood result and a report from your vet you'll win.
Yes this has cost money but that's why you do a vetting to save you from buying a horse like this .

 

[Goldenstar]

Damage to the liver from ragwort is not reversible and is cumulative, so if the horse ingests any more ragwort the damage will add to what is already there.

It's not just more ragwort its can be anything that stresses the liver even something as the horse reacting badly to starving for an ulcer scan could make the horse seriously unwell .
IF the horse is to be a keeper the use of medication long term in old age also stresses the liver .
OP has had a lucky escape IMO , good vet .

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Is this a young horse? Can liver problems be reversed with good care/proper forage, in horses? Just wondering as can't human livers improve if intake of any poisonous substances stopped?/reversed (ie alcohol?)

I've known horses that have had quite bad liver problems from ragwort that have been much improved by milk thistle in the short term but arguably didn't make a grand old age. Its not something I would take a risk on personally, its a risk that would need managing forever and has other complications-not on a £4.5k horse.

OP I would report them to BHS Welfare personally. DEFRA etc will not do anything.

 

[MrsNorris]

Wise decision OP and good work vet. Thing is with ragwort, if you have to buy in forage you cannot guarantee it will be totally ragwort free, and with a liver already so close to the limit re damage, it wouldn't take much to tip it over the edge. Just a few years of eating a tiny bit hidden in forage could be disastrous, never mind other causes as highlighted by Goldenstar. Good luck with your search, you'll find the perfect one eventually I'm sure.

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

Thanks for the replies, yes im also aware the liver doesn't regenerate following ragwort poisoning like other things and to me that was the biggest thing, tipping him over the edge with bad hay or something.
Seller being unbelievable, first she seemed concerned about his welfare and was going to talk to own vet. Now she's ranting saying checking for poisoning isn't part of 5 stage vetting and she never gave permission for the bloods to be used in that way, that it was for later doping etc. Is also saying that it's not an illegal or notifyable weed and that her vet said horses can live off ragwort land for years and be fine, or equally drop dead in 2 days. She's refusing to return my deposit as said that I could've seen fields myself when viewed him (obviously I didn't!) and that he passed vetting itself, albeit before test results came back.
Am going to speak to CAB shortly but can't actually believe this woman, surely she's glad this has been found out do his management can be changed rather than focusing on it not being an illegal plant and she didn't give her permission to do test! Unbelievable!

 

[Goldenstar]

On principle I would go after her for the return of the deposit .
You have had a lucky escape and your vet has done his job .
As for the owner ignore her she's an idiot as is any one who grazes their horse in an ragwort infested field .
I have just been to Scotland for a short break I was shocked by the number of horses I saw in totally infested fields including two poor looking youngsters in a bare except for ragwort paddock poor little things .

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

On principle I would go after her for the return of the deposit .
You have had a lucky escape and your vet has done his job .
As for the owner ignore her she's an idiot as is any one who grazes their horse in an ragwort infested field .
I have just been to Scotland for a short break I was shocked by the number of horses I saw in totally infested fields including two poor looking youngsters in a bare except for ragwort paddock poor little things .

Thanks GS, doesn't look promising speaking to cab, even with all the evidence on text that it was subject to satisfactory vetting, it's such a specific area they didnt really have a clue tbh. Also it will likely cost far more in solucitors/ court fees than I'm ever likely to get back anyway. On principle I really don't want to let her get away with it but my main concern is that poor pony and is she even gonna take heed of the results and advice I've given, I am planning on ringing bhs welfare line on Monday though, that's if vet hadn't already reported himself. I'm sure she'll just say it's not an illegal plant though so where's the problem?!? I mean regardless of the law how anyone can think borderline liver disease on a 6yo pony as anything other than horrendous is beyond me, she's clearly clueless and then got the hump that she lost sale, the ponies welfare is sadly prob the last thing on her mind.

 

[Apercrumbie]

I cannot believe that an owner would be so thick as to turn their horses out on ragwort infested land, particularly a native! Let's be honest, they are more likely to be greedy and eat anything You have definitely made the right decision OP, you wouldn't want that hanging over you. Poor horse

 

[rachk89]

On principle I would go after her for the return of the deposit .
You have had a lucky escape and your vet has done his job .
As for the owner ignore her she's an idiot as is any one who grazes their horse in an ragwort infested field .
I have just been to Scotland for a short break I was shocked by the number of horses I saw in totally infested fields including two poor looking youngsters in a bare except for ragwort paddock poor little things .

Yeah there are some bad places here for it. One place you drive past and it's just fields of yellow. No one does anything. I refused to put my horse there just because of that. My dad thought i was crazy because otherwise the place has good facilities but if they don't care about ragwort what else don't they care about?

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Thanks GS, doesn't look promising speaking to cab, even with all the evidence on text that it was subject to satisfactory vetting, it's such a specific area they didnt really have a clue tbh. Also it will likely cost far more in solucitors/ court fees than I'm ever likely to get back anyway. On principle I really don't want to let her get away with it but my main concern is that poor pony and is she even gonna take heed of the results and advice I've given, I am planning on ringing bhs welfare line on Monday though, that's if vet hadn't already reported himself. I'm sure she'll just say it's not an illegal plant though so where's the problem?!? I mean regardless of the law how anyone can think borderline liver disease on a 6yo pony as anything other than horrendous is beyond me, she's clearly clueless and then got the hump that she lost sale, the ponies welfare is sadly prob the last thing on her mind.

If you have the BHS gold membership you can get free legal advice from their helpline.

 

[bollybop]

Instead of the small claims court you could try the online thingy instead?

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

Instead of the small claims court you could try the online thingy instead?

Yes the lady at citizens advice did mention that. Sadly after speaking to a good friend who's my financial advisor but also has a degree in law I don't think it'll be worth pursuing, I hate letting her get away with it but it's a relatively small amount in the grand scheme of things, and would cost a lot more time, money and hassle trying to get it back.

 

[eggs]

Sorry for the pony and sorry for you. Think you have made the right decision. Even if you won a small claims case (and there is a reasonable chance you wouldn't) there is no guarantee that the woman would pay up (I speak from bitter experience having won a case).

 

[juevans]

I felt I had to reply to this post as I was the seller of this horse Llynhelyg Reflection back in August last year however not having been on this forum for quite a while I didnt realise that the buyer had even wrote this but then why would I as surprisingly she still bought him . In fact after giving me a ridiculous amount of abuse and leading me to believe that my horse was on deaths door she begged me to sell him to her, that she would give him a good home, funny that ,coz she is now selling him again less than 6 months later, well actually she cant even be bothered to do that bit and as got the producer where he as been since last August to do the selling part. Her above post is nothing but lies she did see the field that he was turned out in as it was on one side of the driveway into the farmyard as for the £200 deposit that was a deposit that I agreed to return if he didnt pass the vetting which he DID the blood test for liver function was done seperatley and is not in any way part of a 5 stage vetting the bloods that are taken are to be stored by the vet in case they are needed for future tests for DOPING not liver tests. Buyer is correct in saying that I kicked off about the blood being tested of course I did I signed for them to be used for storage nothing else, however had I been asked if I would give my permission then of course I would have as despite what this thread leads ppl to believe I did look after my horse.The buyer hadnt even spoken to the vet when she posted this thread she had just heard his voicemail and decide to make up a load of rubbish. Has for the person who said I would probably just still advertise him and not mention it well you couldnt be more wrong I had my own test done but even after all the abuse I got I let op buy him and now she is the one doing exactly that at least I had no idea at all !!! She also posted pics of him on another thread (easy to find) where someone asked her if he was from the ragwort place and she blatentely lied again and said no. My point is there is always two sides to every story dont always assume the poster is telling the truth as she certainly isnt in this case no bloody wonder she as horse disasters

 

[FfionWinnie]

Frankly juevans, you're making a right fool of yourself. No one would have known this was anything to do with that horse or yourself had you not posted. Had you considered the op may have said no he wasn't that horse, to prevent any association with that situation being linked with the horse you sold and therefore you?

There is no law against buying a horse and selling it 6 minutes later never mind 6 months.

What do you hope to achieve by posting on these threads?

 

[honetpot]

Another, be careful what you post on the internet.

 

[juevans]

Who asked you ?

 

[juevans]

And no she didn't say it wasn't same horse to save it being associated with me at all what's wrong do you know her ? How the hell do you think I found the thread exactly o yes I Google his name bingo it's not rocket science I get lies about me so of course I am going to say something why shouldn't I and I never said she couldn't sell him again after 6 months did I ?

 

[FfionWinnie]

I don't know her and I don't really care about this nonsense just letting you know you now look more of a vindictive idiotic bully than your first post made you look.

 

[Barlow]

And no she didn't say it wasn't same horse to save it being associated with me at all what's wrong do you know her ? How the hell do you think I found the thread exactly o yes I Google his name bingo it's not rocket science I get lies about me so of course I am going to say something why shouldn't I and I never said she couldn't sell him again after 6 months did I ?

But the only person to mention the pony's name is you?