Another stallion son by Jumbo

[magic104]

Is it fair to say that Jumbo is one of the most succesful UK stallions. He seems to have more sons standing then any other UK bred horse I can remember. This stallion is ex of a mare of unknown breeding, but of TB type. I am wondering how this will affect how many mares he gets.
http://www.battletonphoenix.co.uk/Breeding.htm

 

[scotsmare]

i don't really think there's any excuse for standing a stallion where the parentage is 50% unknown - there are plenty of other proven stallions out there .

 

[Bossanova]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't really think there's any excuse for standing a stallion where the parentage is 50% unknown - there are plenty of other proven stallions out there .

[/ QUOTE ]

There are actually relatively few proven event stallions with a half descent record and this horse seems to be reasonably consistant in all 3 phases

 

[Gucci_b]

.

 

[scotsmare]

But are they unproven cos their owners considered them too precious to compete?

 

[henryhorn]

If both sire and dam have good competition records I see no reason not to use them.
I get very tired of people wittering on about only use approved stallions, sorry, if I am breeding a horse to compete, I want it to come from a bloodline of proven competition horses, at least then you have a chance of getting what you want!
What's better, a well bred horse who is approved by his conformation and expectations of success, or one who's gone out and done it?
I know which I'd choose

 

[magic104]

I have been a fan of Jumbo ever since I saw him at his grading. He does not have a full pedigree but he has proven himself, which takes time. He started off at only 250 but once his offspring started out under saddle that soon changed. I just think now with so many graded & pedigreed stallions it maybe a bit more difficult for stallions like this one. If he is like his sire though, it could be as well to take the gamble.

 

[Bossanova]

[ QUOTE ]
But are they unproven cos their owners considered them too precious to compete?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never use an 'event stallion' that was too precious to event- what rubbish!!

I find this horse far, far less offensive than the hundreds of coloured stallions with full pedigrees and no good points bar their striking colour.

 

[KenRehill]

[ QUOTE ]
Battleton Phoenix is out of Bala, a TB type mare of unknown breeding with a fantastic jump.

[/ QUOTE ]

.....................oh well that's alright then, if she's got a great jump you must use him.........................what utter gobs***e.

[ QUOTE ]
I get very tired of people wittering on about only use approved stallions, sorry, if I am breeding a horse to compete, I want it to come from a bloodline of proven competition horses, at least then you have a chance of getting what you want!


[/ QUOTE ]

Please read what you have written. How do you know that the line is proven, without the information which comes from a database, which in turn allows you to see what a stallion has or has not produced, rather than relying on the stallion owners BS (and there's piles of that out there)

British breeding will stay where it is, if breeders continue to use stallions who's pedigrees are unknown and are not approved (we also need to get rid of the word "grading", it's meaningless).

I'm not knocking this horse BTW, this stallion may well be good, but if he's that good, why hasn't he been sent to the approvals? He'd get some coverings then.

 

[firm]

"British breeding will stay where it is" and with regards to breeding eventers is Britain not doing well

especially considering the small numbers of sporthorses the UK breeds in comparison with Europe.
I think you said one of your young stallions covered 700 mares - the average in the UK must be 15 if even that?
What about all the wonderful ponies bred in the UK?

Sorry to go off topic but I do get hacked off with blanket criticism about British breeding.
You just have to look at foals on this forum to see there are a lot of people doing a very good job ( including Brits foal

). Room for improvement - yes. Proper statistics, marketing & cooperation between UK equine bodies badly needed - yes, some education needed - yes. That is hopefully what the UK will start to get now will the help of Ciss etc.

Back to the original topic

If this stallion continues to do well with his eventing then I would consider using him

 

[Maggie2]

Any stallion covering 700 mares must 'surely' throw some good ones. This distorts the figures as these will be heavily quoted and promoted as part of the stallion's marketing.

If 700 coverings throws up 5 top foals and a few above average, many many average ones, that still leaves unanswered questions about the actual talent for a lot of them.

That goes for any stallion, anywhere, needless to say, but the sheer difference in the number of foals on the ground between a stallion with mares in the multiple hundreds against one covering 20 or 30 makes the difference.

 

[no_no_nanette]

I think its an exciting time for both British and Irish breeding at the moment, as it really does seem as though the "powers that be" are beginning to get the message about better co-ordination, marketing, etc, even though I also expect that there will be those who have a vested interest in holding things back. But I'm really impressed by the what I've seen of the Futurity process so far, there are some brilliant and helpful fact sheets going up on the bef website, and with people like Jan and Ciss taking the lead I think there's lots of room for optimism! There's also lots of opportunity for taking an objective look at what continental breeders and studs do well, and what can be improved on .... The risk is that we'll get so intimidated in the UK about the inferiority of our approaches to breeding that it will cloud judgements about how continental systems might be bettered. No system is ever perfect. But its a long and continuing journey!

 

[henryhorn]

have pm'd you as long and involved reply!

 

[magic104]

If his dam is the same mare that competed eventing then she managed 3pts at N back in 95 & was placed 4th at Moreton Morell along with a 6th & 2nd at PN. I find it frustrating that a horses pedigree could be lost either because the breeder never reg or the pprs just went "missing". There are a lot of mares on the continent that have never been under saddle & only bred from because of their blood lines. Does that make that mare a better prospect then one that has proved herself temperment wise under saddle & in soundness? I am biased because I dont think a mare should be ruled out of being bred from just because we cant identify her blood lines. As I have said before I know of a reg TB mare, but I am not over impressed with either of her offspring though the last one seems ok. Having said that it will be how they perform under saddle that really matters. It is harder for a mare to prove herself as she is limited to 1 foal a yr & unlike a stallion who is unable to compete in the meantime. This stallion may not have been put forward for grading but his ability has put him on the pathway scheme. We will have to wait awhile yet to see how succesful Jumbo's sons are as stallions. I would say though that Jumbo has been more succesful then a number of stallions that graded that day, & they had full pedigrees.

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]


There are actually relatively few proven event stallions with a half descent record and this horse seems to be reasonably consistant in all 3 phases

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. He's by a proven sire with an illustrious pedigree AND he passed grading with IDHS(GB) which is no mean feat - only one or two stallions grade onto the Sport Horse Register every year. They have to be damn good!

I think the obsession with 'bloodlines' - particularly European ones - is a bit of a sham. Let's face it - half the European stud books accept stallions (and mares) of other breeding - I have an admittedly fabulous horse by a KWPN stallion (who was by a Selle Francais OUT of a Selle Francais mare!

So knowing who it is doesn't necessarily mean you know WHAT it is!

As good a sire as Beeston Jumbo Jet (to give him his FULL title) was, he couldn't turn out quality horses from total dross - so the mare must have been a very good type. The fact her breeding is 'unknown' is regrettable - it doesn't mean it wasn't good.

This horse is only 8 and already has a pretty decent competition record - in a couple of years he could easily be a serious contender at Badminton/Burghley. If he follows in the footsteps of Headley Britannica, people will be falling over themselves to use him - and his stud fee will be at LEAST double what it is now. If I had the right mare, I sure wouldn't let the lack of dam's pedigree stop me using him!

 

[Shark]

A stallion's competition record is not the be all of breeding a stallion has to prove himself through his offspring!! There are many out there that competed well themselves and produce rubbish time and time again even out of good mares you can only judge a Stallion on his offspring! With younger stallions you are taking an educated guess and I would prefer proven bloodlines with a good temperament!

 

[xspiralx]

I agree with this. He looks a lovely boy. Just because the mare's breeding is unknown, doesn't mean it was crap, or that she is worthless.

 

[KenRehill]

[ QUOTE ]
With younger stallions you are taking an educated guess

[/ QUOTE ]

And that is where the problem lies. Where does the education come from? If there is no system (therefore no information on the motherline other than "oh she has a super jump") how can you make an educated guess? If you only go on the fact that this particular stallion is by Jumbo, then you're NOT making an educated guess and should be using Jumbo himself, as regardless of Jumbo's motherline, he is without question proven.

 

[Bossanova]

[ QUOTE ]
A stallion's competition record is not the be all of breeding a stallion has to prove himself through his offspring!! There are many out there that competed well themselves and produce rubbish time and time again even out of good mares you can only judge a Stallion on his offspring! With younger stallions you are taking an educated guess and I would prefer proven bloodlines with a good temperament!

[/ QUOTE ]

As you say, stallions with generations of known pedigree can produce rubbish. There are some extremely well bred young event stallions who are shockingly bad at eventing yet are being advertised at more money than this chap.

Eventing isnt about how amazingly well bred your horse is, it's about courage, bravery and heart.
My mare is out of a dam with unkown breeding but by a very sucessful stallion and she is streets ahead of many beautifully bred horses of her age. My older horse was out of a dam with no breeding known, again he was by a very good stallion and competed to a decent level plus is faultless in his conformation.

 

[Bossanova]

[ QUOTE ]
If you only go on the fact that this particular stallion is by Jumbo, then you're NOT making an educated guess and should be using Jumbo himself, as regardless of Jumbo's motherline, he is without question proven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe we cant all afford Jumbo's stud fee

Also, he's a chunky boy, for a slightly heavier mare you're likely to get something more resembling a carthorse whereas this stallion son adds in more tb blood.

 

[magic104]

I was going to use Jumbo when he stood in Buckinghamshire & was priced at that 250, but I lost the mare in-foal after she broke a hind leg. She was suited to something like Jumbo as she was TB type & thrown a lovely foal by a full ID. As Bossanova stated his son has more lightness to him & is appealing to a different type of mare. I have no interest in this stallion, except that I am a fan of his sire. I do think though that his fee is very reasonable & has got to be worth a gamble. After all breeding is a lottery anyway, & if you are looking at breeding an eventer then he looks a good candidate. I dont know if he would suit my mare, but I wont be permitted to breed from her again for a couple of years at least.

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]
If you only go on the fact that this particular stallion is by Jumbo, then you're NOT making an educated guess and should be using Jumbo himself, as regardless of Jumbo's motherline, he is without question proven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing mare owners didn't work on that basis 20 years ago. As Jumbo has no motherline, mare owners made an 'educated guess' - based on sireline and Jumbo's own personal attributes. It paid off for a hell of a lot of them, didn't it? I could quote you any number of 'proven' TB mares with good race records who never produced anything of note at stud. Breeding IS a gamble - however much information you have. PROVEN horses with illustrious pedigrees can produce an expensive white elephant - so why ot have the odd flutter on a 100-1 outsider? Some of them win!

 

[S_N]

[ QUOTE ]
I could quote you any number of 'proven' TB mares with good race records who never produced anything of note at stud.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite!! And what about all the TB mares that never made it to the race track, or if the did never got their noses in front, who have gone on to produce nowt but winners of the highest calibre!

 

[KenRehill]

[ QUOTE ]
After all breeding is a lottery anyway

[/ QUOTE ] funny how the successful breeding nations (France, Germany, Holland) tend to win the sports they specifically breed in.

[ QUOTE ]
Breeding IS a gamble

[/ QUOTE ] yes, and you lengthen the odds when you breed to unproven stallions. Other than that I don't agree with the gamble statement.

[ QUOTE ]
PROVEN horses with illustrious pedigrees can produce an expensive white elephant

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, thyat is possible, but then the first word of your statement is "proven".

[ QUOTE ]
so why ot have the odd flutter on a 100-1 outsider? Some of them win!

[/ QUOTE ] With £5 each way certainly, but not when you're spending the amount British breeders do vets fees and covering fees and aftercare.

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]
funny how the successful breeding nations (France, Germany, Holland) tend to win the sports they specifically breed in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty pointless if they didn't!

If you breed horses that are carefully selected for certain traits, chances are you're going to get a decent percentage that can do the job you want. The more you breed, the more successful horses you get. I don't know how many 'competition' horses are bred in each respective country for each discipline - but I suspect that France and Germany - at least - have rather more large studs breeding - say - specifically for dressage - than we do in the UK.

[ QUOTE ]
yes, and you lengthen the odds when you breed to unproven stallions.

[/ QUOTE ] Of course you do - but NO stallion is 'proven' until he has produced performers - so for at least the first 4-5 years of his stud career he is 'unproven' - no matter how good his breeding and competition record. If no-one used unproven stallions, how the hell would we end up with PROVEN stallions??

Plenty of people use very expensive, proven stallions - on very good mares - and don't get a winner because there's so much more to it. No matter how good the horse's 'potential' is - he still has to be produced properly. The top studs stand far more chance of selling their horses to someone who CAN produce them properly than a 'backyard' breeder does. So a stallion's success can be influenced by factors other than the actual 'breeding' of the horse. The stallion has to get the opportunity to cover 'good' mares - and the progeny have to get the opportunity to be 'properly' produced.

And we still see very good performance horses appearing that are by an 'unfashionable' stallion out of a mare of no particular/or unknown breeding. Is this because there are some very good 'unproven' horses around - or have these horses just got a flash of talent from somewhere and been well produced?? Bit of both, probably.

I'm not advocating breeding willy-nilly to or from horses with no claim to fame. I AM saying that if no-one trusted their judgement/gut instinct/or whatever to take a chance with an unproven sire, or a sire with an incomplete pedigree, a lot of very good horses would never have been born - let alone have gone on to be very successful sires! Like Jumbo!



Of course if you breed 'the best' to 'the best' you have a far better chance of producing a good horse. But there are no guarantees - no matter how much you spend!

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you only go on the fact that this particular stallion is by Jumbo, then you're NOT making an educated guess and should be using Jumbo himself, as regardless of Jumbo's motherline, he is without question proven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing mare owners didn't work on that basis 20 years ago. As Jumbo has no motherline, mare owners made an 'educated guess' - based on sireline and Jumbo's own personal attributes. It paid off for a hell of a lot of them, didn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good point JG! And c'mon Ken - I do take your points as well, but you didn't address this one! Headley Britannia, the mare you are rightly so proud to have visiting one of the stallions you represent, would have been bred when Jumbo was in much the same position as this son of his with 'no motherline' we are discussing! I'm rather glad her owners took a chance on him, aren't you?

(And I say this even as a typical Arab breeder who is totally obsessed with pedigrees!)

 

[magic104]

Sorry Ken but I do believe breeding is a gamble. For one thing there is no guarantee that your foal will even make it to riding horse. But more importantly if you have a sire that covers 700 mares or even 200 his chances of breeding offspring of worth is higher then a stallion only covering 50/100 mares. Then there is the production, as already discussed in previous threads. If a horse is with a pro outfit then everybit of its ability is going to be utilised. They will also pick up a lot sooner if the horse has the ability to go to the top. Also this country does not back its breeders, so owners have to have the funds to promote their stallions. It is not cheap to put your stallion with a top rider as you well know. I have said before for most of us we need a ridable horse. Another thing the majority of horse owners are hobby riders & keep their horses in livery where you may not have individual turnout. I am not sure I would want a 10k+ horse running around at my yard, & I dont believe in keeping them in any longer then necessary, so mine are turned out 24/7 in the summer. I hate to think what the insurance would be on one of these horses! My farrier went off to Germany to look for a replacement horse, because he was fed up with driving up & down the country to see things nothing like advertised. He was able to veiw 10 very good horses at one place, a few miles down the road another 10. We cant do that in this country because we dont have the infrastructure in place. We dont farm our horses, (I dont mean that derogatory). If you look at the way race horses are bred you will see how far behind we are anyway. It has taken some time for us to feel comfortable with buying selling at auction, yet the racing establishment dont have that problem. Our country if full of hobby breeders 1 mare or 2 mare owners who hopefully are trying to breed something that will give someone years of pleasure. In the 80's when every other person was bringing in WB's, it was not unusual to see they had bought to throw aways! They had the lovely flashy movements, but the riders could not sit them! That is another area we fall short of, hobby riders dont always have regular lessons because they only want to do RC & hack out. Again the training costs so much, competiting costs are spiraling especially with diesel prices going through the roof. Therefore at the moment I am not sure this country has the market place for every stud to be breeding in the same way as the rest of Europe. To stand stallions with stud fees in excess of £800. We are all well aware there are horses our there that should never have been breed, but I have seen imported WB's that I would not give grass room to! Quidam de Revel SF great bet for breeding a SJ or eventing there is Staccato who's stud fee is only Stud fee: $1650. Yes if I had the rider, facilties & time I would buy a mare worthy of such stallions, but along with 1000's of other horse owners in this country I dont. I agree that we should all be breeding the very best we can, that a bad horse costs as much to keep a a good one. For anyone looking at eventing stallions here is the link
http://www.sandhills.com.au/Sandhills/Stallion.php

 

[magic104]

Forgot something very important. You can have the best bloodlines possible, but if the horse is not inclined there is nothing you can do about it. Sponeck was very well bred & certainly had the ability, but years ago he threw the towl in at shows. He just had enough & though he would work lovely at home he turned off once at a competition. So yes horses are a gamble, whatever their breeding.