Another "what's wrong with him" thread!

[Brummyrat]

It would seem that every October my veteran Sec D comes up with a mystery illness. Last year's was eventually put down to a virus, he seemed to get over it eventually...or did he? Two vets found absolutely nothing, despite blood tests, so we put it down to a virus.

So to now. Over the last month he has got more lethargic, in the school and in the stable although still bouncy out hacking (adrenaline no doubt), he's always a happy boy but he stopped greeting people which is unheard of. He also started to drool like there was no tomorrow so I got an urgent call in to the dentist. She found nothing, as did her assistant, teeth were fine. The drooling got worse so I got my vet to do bloods and they came back showing anaemia, a viral infection and "bacterial follow-up". So he's on antibiotics and red cell and seems much brighter in himself one week on, back to normal personality wise but the drooling is no better. Sometimes he chews and chews so that its like foam, other times it just falls like ribbons from his mouth. Vet will have a good look in his mouth under sedation next week, giving the antibiotics another week to work but in the meantime I wondered if anybody else has any ideas? I can't believe the dentist found nothing but I bow to her superior knowledge and it hasn't affected his eating. Any suggestions most welcome, as always.

 

[flintfootfilly]

What were the symptoms last year?

What was tested bloodwise this year and last. What came back outside reference range?

Hopefully your vet will have already pointed out that Cushing's can present at lethargy. My mare would hang her head so low she looked like she'd been sedated. Pretty typical for a Cushing's horse. Could that be it, or have you already ruled that out?

Hopefully your vet will have also said that native types commonly have lower red blood cells than thoroughbreds, so the apparent "anaemia" may or may not be significant. In any case, iron is very unlikely to be deficient in a normal diet of mainly hay/grass so supplementation should not be necessary. It's one of the most oversupplemented minerals, and unfortunately excess iron cannot be excreted. It just accumulates in the liver, so personally I would stop the Red Cell.

Anaemia is more likely to be caused by copper deficiency than iron deficiency.

I'd be asking the vet what was high/low to make them say there was a viral infection and "bacterial followup", or probably more to the point I'd be asking for a copy of the complete blood results for your records and for future reference.

Has his diet changed - could this have coincided with the start of the drooling? eg new batch of hay - any plants in there which could cause the drooling?

Is he drooling with food in his mouth, or is he chewing when his mouth is empty?

Does he do any work - If so, how willingly does he move?

Sarah

 

[lizbet]

Please please have a chushings test just the simple blood one or starvation
One not the steriod one.You can get them free now just to rule it out.
So many people miss it and it csn be fatal if not treated or they get lammi
This and every sept oct it is so common. I dont mean to scare you but i have seen
So much of it and in my opion it just is not worth the risk good luck xx

 

[Micky]

And the EMS/IR one too

 

[Brummyrat]

Thanks guys im on my phone on way to work so will reply later but i did ask for cushings test as that was my initial thought, v interesting re the copper though as during a google frenzy last year when he was lethargic then started fainting when his heart rate increased, copper deficiency was mentioned then so im going to get my vet onto that also, thanks x

 

[applecart14]

What were the symptoms last year?

What was tested bloodwise this year and last. What came back outside reference range?

Hopefully your vet will have already pointed out that Cushing's can present at lethargy. My mare would hang her head so low she looked like she'd been sedated. Pretty typical for a Cushing's horse. Could that be it, or have you already ruled that out?

Hopefully your vet will have also said that native types commonly have lower red blood cells than thoroughbreds, so the apparent "anaemia" may or may not be significant. In any case, iron is very unlikely to be deficient in a normal diet of mainly hay/grass so supplementation should not be necessary. It's one of the most oversupplemented minerals, and unfortunately excess iron cannot be excreted. It just accumulates in the liver, so personally I would stop the Red Cell.

Anaemia is more likely to be caused by copper deficiency than iron deficiency.

I'd be asking the vet what was high/low to make them say there was a viral infection and "bacterial followup", or probably more to the point I'd be asking for a copy of the complete blood results for your records and for future reference.

Has his diet changed - could this have coincided with the start of the drooling? eg new batch of hay - any plants in there which could cause the drooling?

Is he drooling with food in his mouth, or is he chewing when his mouth is empty?

Does he do any work - If so, how willingly does he move?

Sarah

Has he moved paddocks lately? Is there an excess of clover in his paddock?

 

[Brummyrat]

Already lost one reply,stupid phone, so briefly..nothing whatsoever has changed, he was happy in full work and i did check for clover when it started, nothing, i wish i could reach that hallelujah moment

 

[applecart14]

and i did check for clover when it started, nothing, i wish i could reach that hallelujah moment

Okay then, how about excess clover in the hay that you feed - did you check for that? If the hay has come off a field with excess clover this could possibly cause clover slobbers.

Have a look at this link too http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/5281.html

 

[Brummyrat]

Thanks for the replies and thanks for that link applecart, very interesting reading. My boy seems much perkier in himself this week, more like his old self, but tied up tonight while I was mucking out he was constantly chewing. There was a pool of saliva on the floor in his stable where he stands and there is definitely something in it, not just spit but its kind of mucousy if you see what I mean. He doesn't cough and his nose is clean so Im not sure where its coming from. To be honest my vet isn't great but last year I had two draw a blank, one is well renowned in these parts and the other was recommended on here and came from an hour away and checked absolutely everything bar a full body scan and came up with nothing...horse eventually got better by himself but now Im wondering if it was a virus that is triggered by something at this time of year? Clutching at straws I know! Nothing has changed, he has big bale haylage I share with six others so we get through each bale very quickly and nobody else has problems. I haven't got the lab results to hand but Ive asked for them, the vet said he could only go on what was in front of him but I passed your suggestions on to him and he said he'd look into it (yeah, sure he will, not). He said again though that nothing showed cushings wise but I haven't ruled it out yet and he does plan to come next week and have a good look in his mouth. Thanks again and if anyone can think of anything then please keep them coming, I really do appreciate the help *hands round a box of chocolate eclairs x

 

[Silverfire]

It would seem that every October my veteran Sec D comes up with a mystery illness. Last year's was eventually put down to a virus, he seemed to get over it eventually...or did he? Two vets found absolutely nothing, despite blood tests, so we put it down to a virus.

So to now. Over the last month he has got more lethargic, in the school and in the stable although still bouncy out hacking (adrenaline no doubt), he's always a happy boy but he stopped greeting people which is unheard of. He also started to drool like there was no tomorrow so I got an urgent call in to the dentist. She found nothing, as did her assistant, teeth were fine. The drooling got worse so I got my vet to do bloods and they came back showing anaemia, a viral infection and "bacterial follow-up". So he's on antibiotics and red cell and seems much brighter in himself one week on, back to normal personality wise but the drooling is no better. Sometimes he chews and chews so that its like foam, other times it just falls like ribbons from his mouth. Vet will have a good look in his mouth under sedation next week, giving the antibiotics another week to work but in the meantime I wondered if anybody else has any ideas? I can't believe the dentist found nothi ng but I bow to her superior knowledge and it hasn't affected his eating. Any suggestions most welcome, as always.

Did he do the drooling last year? If not then maybe he has fractured part of a tooth in a difficult to see place. Fractured teeth will cause drooling although you would expect it to affect his eating but maybe its in a place that doesn't hurt to eat.

 

[Brummyrat]

Thanks silverfire, two dentists checked the whole of his mouth but im still not convinced, he's acting like there's something in there but eating ok, luckily the vet will look next week and no, the drooling is new this year x

 

[Silverfire]

Thanks silverfire, two dentists checked the whole of his mouth but im still not convinced, he's acting like there's something in there but eating ok, luckily the vet will look next week and no, the drooling is new this year x

Did the dentists use mirrors? If he was mine i would get his mouth checked again this week with him sedated. It could be a fractured tooth or something or maybe he has a small bit of twig or something stuck in somewhere, iritating him and causing him to drool because he can't move it. I would think its hard to thoroughly check a horses mouth if he moves his head about and without using mirrors. Worth doing to rule it out if nothing else.

 

[Brummyrat]

Silverfire that's exactly that Im going to do, Ive just had a message from the vet and he said he'd come and sedate him and have a good look. This was after me tonight telling him what greeted me this evening, a happy boy, but drooling as bad as ever and now he's got a runny nose as well, his stable floor was soaked but he was eating ok, maybe there is something and he's got used to eating with it. I do hope so and we can sort it out for him. Thanks x

 

[natmac84]

hey, my mare was exactly how you described with your sypmtoms last year except she was sweating a little to , i had the vet out approx 4 times cause i thought it might be colic and they ran bloods etc and kept saying couldnt see anything wrong did internals etc.... anyway to cut a long story short she perked up a bit but in Jan she went down hill again, didnt ant to eat (any my god she llloovvveesss food) wasnt interested in people or horses, head on the floor, doing a funnt chewing thing... the vet cam out and ran bloods and this time it came back she had a virus that had attacked her immune system basically leaving her with none...... my mare has ems so couldnt have redcell but i got her a herbal form called immuneplus and 2 weeks of anti biotica nad she was back to my loud food loving mare xx

 

[Brummyrat]

Oooh natmac that's so interesting to hear! Our results say virus, with an infection (low immune system?) and the drooling came after I noticed him lose his "spark". He's still doing it tonight but he's much happier in himself so maybe it is something like your mare had! We're on day 9 of antibiotics and my vet said he wanted to give three weeks worth before he did the next stage of tests so maybe I should sit it out, continue to wrap him up and keep him rested and hope for the best. Thanks, feel encouraged. Sorry your girl has EMS, just been reading up on that too, hope you're keeping her going ok xx

 

[lizbet]

Dear brummyrat this is why people are sugesting chushings Ems.
Dont want to keep banging on about it but infections anemia lathergy
drulling low immune system are all signs.He may have one or the other
be boarder line but i cant see a tooth making him ill on a seasoal yearly basis
as you said it is oct.Theses conditions i understand to be worse
then. I could be completey wrong.I would mean his teath would
have to react every oct.Have you considered a seasonal allergy.I have seen
horses struggle with boardline chushings Ems and seasonal alergys
aswell as tooth problems.But if he was mine and a veteran i would
be rapidly trying to get him comfortable by now and let my VET
decide what it is .Good luck xx

 

[Brummyrat]

Point taken lizbet, Im just frustrated with my vet but he's no better than the others around these parts, I have to keep giving him a shove. Im chasing and chasing for a definite no to cushings/ems and still waiting, he said no and I said "are you sure?". I will continue to push though because that was my first thought too. Thanks for your response x

 

[Emz99]

I would think EMS would be top of my for autumnal sessional illness like this as horses naturally become more insulin resistant at this time which might be pushing him over the threshold for appearance of clinical signs.

 

[lizbet]

There is no point to be taken my love offers of help are purely guienue i am
sure but time after time they can get virus and then bang lammi
i just dont want this to happen to you. I may be completly wrong
He may not have maybe boardline but for the sake of a free blood
test i would rule it out once and for all asap change your vet get
one from further a field and sure the call out with others.I really hope
I am wrong xx what area are u in good luck it would seem every
One is wanting him to be well.

 

[natmac84]

Oooh natmac that's so interesting to hear! Our results say virus, with an infection (low immune system?) and the drooling came after I noticed him lose his "spark". He's still doing it tonight but he's much happier in himself so maybe it is something like your mare had! We're on day 9 of antibiotics and my vet said he wanted to give three weeks worth before he did the next stage of tests so maybe I should sit it out, continue to wrap him up and keep him rested and hope for the best. Thanks, feel encouraged. Sorry your girl has EMS, just been reading up on that too, hope you're keeping her going ok xx

he does sound exactly how she was .... fingers crossed thats what it is.... she absolutly grand and doing really well, she has one lot of tabelts in the morning with her brekkie and thats all at them in xx

 

[Brummyrat]

Update..ive harrassed so much he's given in, im going to the clinic after work to pick up the tablets to do a month trial, everything points to cushings for me too so it wont hurt to try it out, watch this space!

 

[lizbet]

Update..ive harrassed so much he's given in, im going to the clinic after work to pick up the tablets to do a month trial, everything points to cushings for me too so it wont hurt to try it out, watch this space!

Loads of people have said that as we know.What is your
vets problem that he can not do a simple chushings test.
There is is a chance he may not have it all signs point to it
as so many have said.It could even be EMS.But what if
you give the tablets to a horse that does not indeed have it
and without the test how much do you actually know to give.
I may be going way over the top but i dont know the risks
of giving these tablets to a horse that has not yet been dignosed.
Vures the risks of a horse you cant get possisbly diagnosed
due to a bad vet.

 

[Brummyrat]

Well the situation has changed dramatically tonight, the boy was happy and perky but didn't eat his tea, even with no antibiotic, the mouth issue still seems to be there but the vet is due on Friday when Ive managed to get a day off. However...he was tied up while I was grooming him this evening and someone started their moped in the carpark behind him, it was only quiet but he doesn't really do traffic and as she pulled away he literally lost consciousness and collapsed. Exactly what he was doing this time last year. Im devastated, for the first time ever Im seeing the end of a beautiful 20 year relationship. If three vets have tried and failed to discover the cause then I also am at a loss.

 

[be positive]

I recently had an osteopath check my horse, vet and dentist had found nothing amiss but I was not happy with him he seemed extremely sensitive in his mouth, the osteo found a lot of tension in the jaw and has in one treatment made a difference, not sure why your horse would be affected at this time of year but the poll area and jaw tension could be worth looking into, your vet should be happy to refer if they can find nothing.

 

[natmac84]

However...he was tied up while I was grooming him this evening and someone started their moped in the carpark behind him, it was only quiet but he doesn't really do traffic and as she pulled away he literally lost consciousness and collapsed. Exactly what he was doing this time last year. Im devastated, for the first time ever Im seeing the end of a beautiful 20 year relationship. If three vets have tried and failed to discover the cause then I also am at a loss.[/QUOTE]

Lost consciousness and collapsed... OMG.... sounds a likkle more serious than what my mare had now..... almost like a form of epilepsy..... how is he today?? are you ok??

 

[dianchi]

Vet asap would be my call, if possible not Friday.

Must be very scary for you

 

[paddyrose]

My gelding was doing exactly this last year. Pools of drool and constantly chomping. Vet and dentist couldn't find anything. Then I was feeling round inside his cheeks and found a small splinter of wood stuck. Dentist came back with gag and got it out easily, problem solved!

 

[Brummyrat]

Paddyrose that's exactly what Im thinking. Ive spoken to the vet and he's coming Friday with sedation and gag, Id have him tomorrow but have a family funeral which I have to travel to during the day. Tonight he was fine, eating hay ok and ate his breakfast but not his tea. The passing out happened last October and carried on through the following two months and we put it down to a virus because it went. If it is that, and the vet finds something, then I will do as I did then. If its manageable and he's happy and safe (and so am I) I will give him more time. Im being a realist though, I wont put him through any more trauma because I love him so much.

 

[natmac84]

Paddyrose that's exactly what Im thinking. Ive spoken to the vet and he's coming Friday with sedation and gag, Id have him tomorrow but have a family funeral which I have to travel to during the day. Tonight he was fine, eating hay ok and ate his breakfast but not his tea. The passing out happened last October and carried on through the following two months and we put it down to a virus because it went. If it is that, and the vet finds something, then I will do as I did then. If its manageable and he's happy and safe (and so am I) I will give him more time. Im being a realist though, I wont put him through any more trauma because I love him so much.

oh sorry Brummyrat i thought you said he collapsed the other day due to the moped..... hope he perks up soon...cant they do an xray to see if theres any foreign bodies? xx

 

[Brummyrat]

Yes he did natmac, sorry its confusing isn't it! Last year he displayed very similar symptoms (syncope when something made him anxious), same time of year, two vets found nothing and it eventually subsided in the April and he's been fab all Summer. Now history seems to be repeating itself. Vet is sedating him to look in his jaw tomorrow and after a chat with other liveries who know him Ive decided to give him two months to see if the medication makes a difference. Ive got to give it a chance haven't I? He seemed fine tonight and dare I say it, the saliva was hardly evident. Thanks for your message xx