Any advice on a leaning, pokey-nose horse? Exercises? Bit? Help!

[PercyMum]

I have a 9 yo Highland x mare who was broken late but is generally progressing nicely. However, I'm now really struggling with her leaning and not sure how to overcome it. She has had back, teeth and saddle all checked so I know its none of those, and the vet has also been to check her over. This is what I have attempted so far:

1. She was quite lazy, so I concentrated on getting her forward; now she is nicely off the leg but has a tendency to go onto the forehand and try to drag herself along. She is really fussy in the mouth and seems happiest in a mullen mouth, with fixed rings so she stops waving her tongue about.

2. I then tried lots of transitions, which started to work but then she decided that she could evade that by poking her nose, and opening her mouth, so the transitions are not as snappy, more so in the downward transitions, which makes them less effective in trying to get her back end under her to lift the front end. I am trying to change speed within the pace instead but I get the same reaction.

3. I then popped a flash on to stop her opening her mouth and 'yawing' upwards. Now, she has gone dead in the mouth and just leans instead.

Any ideas peeps? She is a smashing mare and very quick to learn - and very quick to work out how to avoid something!! She is incredibly powerful and has great potential but until I can get the back end under her, and get that power a bit balanced, we are going nowhere. I've tried ignoring the front end and just repeatedly getting the transitions (I do something every 20 paces, as someone suggested on here a while back) and she will happily do that - with her nose firmly poking out and head yawed to one side, so I don't think she is actually working properly at all and its a bit pointless, although I have persevered on this track for the last 9-10 months.

She CAN work with in a more correct outline and I can feel that lovelyl feeling of her back coming up and her hind end stepping under. Its truly wonderful.... and then she works out another evasion. Its just now I have no idea how to counter it or what else to try. Sometimes she even just stops dead and refuses to budge and as awful as it sounds, a few sharp smacks (on the advice of an instructor) and as if by magic, she can SUDDENLY do exactly what I ask, but I do not want to go done the route of having to repeatedly smack her to get her to work properly. She is actually now quite sharp and she is sensitive. I have done a fair amount of shoulder fore and shoulder in, along with leg yield (mainly in walk, she can't control it in trot) which she is absolutely brilliant at. However, this doesn't seem to translate when I just want her to trot a circle!! My biggest problem is the canter - its huge and a struggle to get her to contain it on a 20m circle. I really need that butt under her!!

Any ideas? Exercises? Bit? Help!!!

 

[9tails]

Does she anything apart from schooling?

 

[PercyMum]

Does she anything apart from schooling?

Yes, she hacks out 2-3 times a week and lunges once a week. I was advised a while back not to lunge Highlands too often as apparently its bad for their joints. She does do a bit better on the lunge, I'm guessing because its not as hard work getting her bottom under her without a rider on. She is worked generally 5 days a week, 3 days work, a day off, then 2 days work. She is 15.3hh and chunky but a sporty chunky if that makes sense? She isn't particularly long coupled so getting her to work from behind shouldn't be this hard!!

Its so frustrating, I feel like she is so close to getting it. Its as if she is just stubbornly trying to avoid working properly, which is silly because she is a horse and doesn't think like that but that's how it feels at the moment!!

 

[JillA]

In hand teach her to relax her jaw, by pressure and release. Stand beside her, take a rein each hand and gently apply steady backward pressure to the bit. The instant she relaxes, remove the pressure.
Once you have done that work on her balance and engagement - transitions, half halts and bends/circles. Most you can do out hacking except perhaps the circles.

 

[PercyMum]

In hand teach her to relax her jaw, by pressure and release. Stand beside her, take a rein each hand and gently apply steady backward pressure to the bit. The instant she relaxes, remove the pressure.
Once you have done that work on her balance and engagement - transitions, half halts and bends/circles. Most you can do out hacking except perhaps the circles.

Thank you. I have not tried in hand work with her, which I could have a bash at.

I have been doing some rein back, which she does very well. She does bring her bum under her, then holds it for a few paces after, then slooooowly starts to return to the pokey-nose yawing nonsense. I did try doing lots of halt/rein back transitions, which she worked out pretty quickly and would halt, then rein back then march off again. When I tried to stop this, she just locks her jaw and leeeeans, which is where we are up to now. I've tried asking for the transition, then as soon as she starts to resist, lean and poke the nose, asking her to move forward again to almost unbalance her and force her to take the weight behind but she doesn't seem to fall for that and just merrily continues with her head up, and backside trailing along.

 

[FabioandFreddy]

Circles - spiralling in to a smaller circle then leg yielding back out. Found this to be the best exercise for when i school my husbands horse who can be strong and lean.

 

[PercyMum]

Circles - spiralling in to a smaller circle then leg yielding back out. Found this to be the best exercise for when i school my husbands horse who can be strong and lean.

Aah, ok. I have not tried that. Should I be trying to get her front end 'correct' or will the exercise get her butt working so she has to bring it down and in to balance herself naturally? I'm really trying to avoid the 'pulling her head' in thing but I have rather naughtily started doing it, almost out of frustration, and because I didn't know if 'guiding' her as to what I want will help?

 

[D66]

Have you had her checked over by a physio/mactiimoney person? if she is stiff around her jaw or poll she will find flexion difficult and painful.
Carrot stretches side-to side might help too.

 

[PercyMum]

Have you had her checked over by a physio/mactiimoney person? if she is stiff around her jaw or poll she will find flexion difficult and painful.
Carrot stretches side-to side might help too.

Yep, physio been in and could only find her a bit sore over her hamstrings - which she needs to use more to help loosen them. She did try manipulating them but the mare was really not happy about it but the physio said its wasn't a concern, and that they sometimes are a bit fussy there.

I did do carrot stretches and bought that Equine physio book that got rave reviews on her (I can't remember the name!!) and religiously stuck to doing it but it didn't make a significant difference. The exercise where she had to arch her hindquarters made her kick out and get really shirty. I got the vet out to have a look, along with the physio again, both who said that there was nothing wrong and she was being sensitive, but using herself more correctly would help alot. I did worry about it but she has since produced nice work but lacks the consistency she needs to build up her back end, which I guess is turning it in to a bit of a vicious circle!

 

[FabioandFreddy]

Ask for the flexion but release as soon as she gives! Really important to reward when she does what you ask. The exercise itself should get her working properly and from behind. Ask for exaggerated inside flexion and push with your inside leg into the outside contact (be sure to keep your outside contact!) Can be done in all 3 paces too. I use the exercise a lot, along with changing from inside to outside flexion on a circle. Really helps lighten him and stop him leaning on me (he's a 17.2 ISH so i know about it when he does! Umm, carry yourself thank you you big oaf!! )

 

[PercyMum]

Ask for the flexion but release as soon as she gives! Really important to reward when she does what you ask. The exercise itself should get her working properly and from behind. Ask for exaggerated inside flexion and push with your inside leg into the outside contact (be sure to keep your outside contact!) Can be done in all 3 paces too. I use the exercise a lot, along with changing from inside to outside flexion on a circle. Really helps lighten him and stop him leaning on me (he's a 17.2 ISH so i know about it when he does! Umm, carry yourself thank you you big oaf!! )

Aah, that's wonderful. Thank you for the clarification. I think I know what Madame and I will be doing later....!!

 

[Pinkvboots]

Yep, physio been in and could only find her a bit sore over her hamstrings - which she needs to use more to help loosen them. She did try manipulating them but the mare was really not happy about it but the physio said its wasn't a concern, and that they sometimes are a bit fussy there.

I did do carrot stretches and bought that Equine physio book that got rave reviews on her (I can't remember the name!!) and religiously stuck to doing it but it didn't make a significant difference. The exercise where she had to arch her hindquarters made her kick out and get really shirty. I got the vet out to have a look, along with the physio again, both who said that there was nothing wrong and she was being sensitive, but using herself more correctly would help alot. I did worry about it but she has since produced nice work but lacks the consistency she needs to build up her back end, which I guess is turning it in to a bit of a vicious circle!

if a horse is very upset by a physio doing any kind of work on them I personally would get a vet out its not normal for a horse to be that unhappy about being touched by a physio she could have an underlying problem, and because of all the troubles you are having with the riding it would make sense that something is not quite right.

Some years ago my first horse would not let the physio do any work on her back so she advised me to get the vet out and she was diagnosed with a very sore sacriliac area, after treatment she was much better and the physio was able to carry on treating.

 

[LeannePip]

Aah, ok. I have not tried that. Should I be trying to get her front end 'correct' or will the exercise get her butt working so she has to bring it down and in to balance herself naturally? I'm really trying to avoid the 'pulling her head' in thing but I have rather naughtily started doing it, almost out of frustration, and because I didn't know if 'guiding' her as to what I want will help?

In all honesty you do need to do a bit of both - you can do all the transitions and exercises you like but if you aren't containing the front end with a contact you will not get the desired end result as you'll be letting all the energy out the front door. In my mind, there is no use spending months working on getting the back end doing its thing, and then suddenly asking for roundness in front, this is where the horses usually end up with their head in the air and running through the bridle because they are avoiding this new contact - you need to introduce both together fairly and equally. Do try not to get frustrated as this helps no one - do you have an instructor who can help you?

Also just seen r.e Physio - i'd be worried if a horse reacted so badly to a physio and would want a work up from a vet to check for under lying issues

 

[Pearlsasinger]

if a horse is very upset by a physio doing any kind of work on them I personally would get a vet out its not normal for a horse to be that unhappy about being touched by a physio she could have an underlying problem, and because of all the troubles you are having with the riding it would make sense that something is not quite right.

This.

In addition, a horse can only lean on your hands if you let it do so. Do not in any circumstances try to hold the horse's head in the 'correct' position. It is only correct if the back end is also right. Hill work, both up and down is the best way I know for developing the muscles needed to get the horse off the fgoirehsnd and stop it leaning.

 

[bollybop]

Could be worth trying a different physio

 

[PercyMum]

In all honesty you do need to do a bit of both - you can do all the transitions and exercises you like but if you aren't containing the front end with a contact you will not get the desired end result as you'll be letting all the energy out the front door. In my mind, there is no use spending months working on getting the back end doing its thing, and then suddenly asking for roundness in front, this is where the horses usually end up with their head in the air and running through the bridle because they are avoiding this new contact - you need to introduce both together fairly and equally. Do try not to get frustrated as this helps no one - do you have an instructor who can help you?

Also just seen r.e Physio - i'd be worried if a horse reacted so badly to a physio and would want a work up from a vet to check for under lying issues

Thank you. I always maintain a contact, and it's a consistent contact - just with a nose straight out in front!!

Thank you all for your concerns about her health but she has been checked by Leanne George, who is the recommended Physio round here by the vets. The vet also checked her over and could find no issues at all - she just doesn't like a hoof-pick scraped over her bum!! I am generally neurotic about my horses health and I am happy that she doesn't have a problem, it's evasion and laziness.

I do have a instructor whose exercises I have been using but she's on maternity leave at the mo hence my canvassing for new ideas!!

 

[abbijay]

Your highland sounds just like my Clydesdale! He was ex-trekking centre and couldn't bend to save his life, he was like riding a motorbike with his nose fixed in front of him. It's taken quite a few years and I can only comment on what worked for us but lessons were the key. We have worked on suppling him up and that was the key thing. Once he could bend in both directions the nose started to come back and now he will work quite nicely. Lots of circles, spirals, leg yields and, my personal favourite, figure 8s. I once spent a whole schooling session never going more than 20 yards before I put the next circle or rein change in and it really paid dividends to us. Rein back is always a good way to get his hind end under him which in turn brings his front end lower and rounder and we have introduced some baby walk pirouettes too again to engage that inside hind. Direct transitions have helped us to push up into the contact and work from behind too. Have you tried walk to canters? My horse can still offer rubbish canters sometimes from trot but as he has to push up from walk, rather than running out of the trot it always sets us up better. Then I have to make sure I transition down before the canter starts to get strung out again.
I'm not saying any of these will work for you but they might give you some things to try.
As for bitting; have you had an expert bit fitter out? I'm just wondering if any of the evasion could come from being uncomfortable in the mouth? BP struggles into the contact when his tongue is under too much pressure (huge tongue, low palette) and sets against it. A recent revelation was a shaped and ported mouthpiece. Again, don't know if it's something to consider but it was revelatory for us.
Good luck!