Trace Any advice on how to claim back a pony?

[AliceO]

Hello, I'd like to ask for some advice please (I cannot give details of our pony as the situation is still happening).

Our family pony was placed on loan (with no written loan contract, it was a verbal agreement), and we requested her return a couple of weeks ago, due to this the people who loaned our pony passed the pony on to extended family and told us that we can sort it out with the extended family ourselves and they want nothing more to do with it- then blocked off all communication without giving us any details for contacting the extended family, or where they sent our pony too.

Fortunately we have managed to find the location of where the extended family live and which yard our pony is located even though it has taken us a couple of weeks, however we are unsure as to how we can claim her officially, she is micro-chipped in our name (and microchip is linked to passport), and we have the ponies society passport, receipt of sale off of the breeders themselves (we are still in contact with them), and before she went on loan the vet and microchip company was informed that our pony was to go out on loan, so the situation is in their records.

We have also come to the realisation that whilst our pony was on loan with them, they have created a false passport as we have photographic (and dated) evidence that our pony has been submitted into shows, and clearly been put on the yards (such as the one at present) even though we hold our ponies passport as they never asked for it and we didn't know at the time of the loan agreement to hand it over (extreme newbies in horse owning at the time).

With this information can anyone suggest how we can legally get our pony back under these circumstances? It would be greatly appreciated as we are extremely upset under the circumstances.

 

[AmyMay]

Have you contacted the ‘extended family’?

 

[AliceO]

Hello amymay, we have found the town/village they live in but not their exact household yet as it is quiet a large area and its over an hours drive away, we spent the whole of today just looking for the relevant area. We weren't given any contact details either before we got blocked, and cannot go to the property as you need permission to be allowed in (electric gates/high fencing)

 

[Equi]

I’d go to the yard with your trailer and make sure the pony is there. I would then not leave until the pony is on your box. Take all your paper work and whatnot with you and if needed ask a vet/someone with a chip reader to come and confirm the chip. They have no legal right to the pony and if you contact them they may move it on too.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I’d go to the yard with your trailer and make sure the pony is there. I would then not leave until the pony is on your box. Take all your paper work and whatnot with you and if needed ask a vet/someone with a chip reader to come and confirm the chip. They have no legal right to the pony and if you contact them they may move it on too.

Ask the police to accompany you, as you fear there may be a breach of the peace.

 

[AliceO]

Hi equi, we've thought of doing this but weren't entirely sure whether it was legal to do so as we don't want to get in trouble or have it come back on us in a negative way, we're worried that they'll move her again and we won't find be able to find her.

 

[AliceO]

Ask the police to accompany you, as you fear there may be a breach of the peace.

I have no problem asking the police but will the police do this as we have heard so many stories about the police not wanting to get involved? We haven't proceeded with this legally yet (although we're looking into the process), but we know that we've only got one shot at this, and so we have to do this correctly/legally.

 

[twiggy2]

Wow, I would speak to the extended family before turning up all guns firing, they may be perfectly reasonable people who no nothing about what has happened.
Lots of shows don't request passports same with some yards so the 'loaners' may not have acquired a new passport.
I would go round to yards in the area and see if I can find the mare then speak to people.

 

[teddypops]

I have never been asked for my passport at any yard or show, so it is possible that they just don’t have a passport, but it will probably mean the pony isn’t up to date with vaccinations.

 

[AliceO]

Wow, I would speak to the extended family before turning up all guns firing, they may be perfectly reasonable people who no nothing about what has happened.
Lots of shows don't request passports same with some yards so the 'loaners' may not have acquired a new passport.
I would go round to yards in the area and see if I can find the mare then speak to people.

When we were trying to politely request our pony back through negotiations before we got blocked, we were told by them (over text so we have documented evidence) that we had passed our pony's passport over to them when they gave us the extended family's contact details originally at the start of the loan agreement, to which we replied that we had no recollection of such an exchange and we are still in possession of our pony's passport, so can they kindly give us their extended families details to get this situation resolved- we then officially got blocked with no further information.

I completely understand that there is a possibility of the extended family not being aware of the circumstances which is why I really don't want to go all guns blazing hence why I'm asking for any advice that could help but that is still a correct procedure.

 

[AliceO]

I have never been asked for my passport at any yard or show, so it is possible that they just don’t have a passport, but it will probably mean the pony isn’t up to date with vaccinations.

I'm not entirely sure, but I was always under the assumption that yards and liveries were legally required to ask for a passport?

 

[teddypops]

I'm not entirely sure, but I was always under the assumption that yards and liveries were legally required to ask for a passport?

I’ve never heard that, so I don’t think that’s the case but I might be wrong!

 

[splashgirl45]

the passport is supposed to be with the horse so if on a livery yard the passport should be there. some yards keep all of the passports locked up in their office and if it is needed for vaccinations etc it is available immediately..i kept my horses passport where my feed was kept and the yo was happy that it was on her premises but she didnt want to keep it but knew where it was.....

 

[be positive]

There is no requirement for a livery yard to see a passport or to have it at the yard unless the owner is not taking care of the horse, it is on full comp livery rather than DIY, although most will want to see the vaccination records, most YO's will assume the person paying the bills owns the pony and have no reason to ask for proof of ownership, to check the passport is in the correct name or any other documents.
I cannot see that they will have gone to the expense of getting him microchipped, which they would have to do to get a new passport issued, or that if they had the vet will have missed the one already there and not questioned them at the time.
I would do as suggested already approach the people who currently have him and hope they are sensible about handing him over, take his proper passport with you and be very clear that it is his, that it proves he is yours, it doesn't but if you seem convincing they may not know any better, I would go ASAP with transport, some backup and start in a non confrontational way stating that they have been mislead about the situation, if you give them the full story and have the paperwork to prove it they have nothing to gain by being obstructive.

The other approach might be to go to the YO if they have a good reputation and see if they will help, I would probably let him leave with you if I could verify all the paperwork but may want a vet to check the microchip details before allowing it to leave.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Oh my goodness what an awful situation.

Just a thought, but are you a BHS Gold member?? If so, I'd give their legal helpline a ring.

If not, then it just might be worth having a chat with a legal person who has experience of equine matters; just to check-out that everything you're doing is legit; it might be of benefit to know where you stand and what you can do as far as legalities are concerned, especially bearing in mind the presence of another passport for the horse. Do you have any receipts/documents from when your purchased the horse originally? Any photos? Vet's reports? My feeling is the original passport should stand, but it might be good to be sure.

If you DO manage to locate the horse, then you will need to consider what course of action you will take. As someone else has said, a chat with the YO might be helpful, depending on what sort of set-up it is........ as a YO myself I certainly wouldn't want a horse on the yard where the ownership of it is in doubt and would be wanting to be rid. But IF the YO is in cohoots with the people who've got your horse, it just might mean he's moved, so I think you need to tread with care re. this one. Do you have any horsey contacts in the area where you think he is?? Anyone who you can trust to keep their mouth shut and do a bit of detective work?? Hunt? Pony Club contacts??

As your horse has effectively been "stolen", have you notified the police? If you know the general area where he is, and do manage to trace him, it would be much better if you could have a police presence there if you go to pick him up

Of course - and I'm merely discussing "options" here not saying whether this is what you should do or whether it is right or not! But if you do manage to trace him - one option would be to do a recce and suss out the security/fencing/gates etc., and then plan to do an early-morning (or dusk-time) pick-up; if you do go this route then plan it carefully and be careful! Then it would be a case of horse gone, job done! Then put the horse back onto another yard (not the one he was at before), and problem sorted. I remember a situation on this forum a few years ago now where there was a similar problem where the owner was having to take this route! Please note I'm not saying it is the way to go, and bearing in mind the second passport, don't even know whether it would be above-board, BUT like I say, it is an "option" and one which I know I would be tempted to consider if the logistics were right, and it was my much-loved horse. Heart might rule head I think!!

There IS a FB called "Trace My Horse UK" and they seem to have a lot of success with tracing people's horses; they might be able to help you? Someone in the area might know?

The other thing you might consider...... thinking outside the box here - is to employ a private investigator. Yes it will cost you, but it might be a way forward...... just an idea.

Hope you get your horse back, what an awful thing to happen, WHY oh why do people do this?

 

[Shay]

Horses are legally property and you are asserting that your horse was stolen. You need to notify the police, get a crime reference number and speak to them about the best way to seek to recover your property. But if the current owners dispute your claim you will end up having to ask a court to adjudicate. Tempting though it is if you go onto private property and remove the horse without permission you may find yourself (at least for a time) on the wrong side of the law. Even when your property is stolen you cannot necessarily go and steal it back.

BP's suggestion is probably easiest - find the current keepers and speak to them. Take the documents you have and try to reach a solution outside the courts. Remember a passport is not proof of ownership. You can prove you bought the pony from the breeder. But it doesn't take 5 minutes with a computer to create a receipt suggesting you then sold the pony on. Your vet records will show that it was loaned - but cannot prove what is in effect a negative - that you didn't sell later. The microchip might have been in your name at one time - but they are very easy to change the registered name. Even if it still is in your name it doesn't prove you still own the horse. You might need to offer to buy the pony back.

I'm really sorry - this is a terribly difficult situation and becuase you didn't have a contarct you are going to struggle with any direct proof. It would be worth calling the BHS helpline if you are a member or getting other legal advice. If the current keepers are not willing to hand her back, or dispute your claim as they may well have bought the pony from the loaners, then this risks being a long, expensive legal battle.

 

[Trouper]

Once you speak to the extended family your cover is blown, so to speak so I think it is important to have a Plan B in place. If the pony was handed on to others on a loan basis it may be difficult to prove theft ie "intention permanently to deprive" the owners of their property. So, yes, I would get some legal advice and I might start by talking to the police - without making it a reported crime- in order to get their opinion on whether a crime has been committed and their reaction to your visiting the yard with vet and passport evidence to hand. I think my Plan B from there would be to go through the yard owner but I might be doing my homework on that, too, to see just what sort of a set up it is ie does it have a good reputation in the area and a responsible owner. Good luck and please let us know how it works out.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I'm so sorry you are in such an awful situation. I would speak to the police first and see if you get any useful guidance but it seems to me that the police rarely intervene when someone steals a horse - leaving it to the courts - and yet the advice is always that you could find yourself in legal trouble if you go and get it back.

If it is a responsible (BHS approved/professional) yard then I'd go via the YO. But if it's private/semi private I think you'd risk the pony simply disappearing as soon as you make contact.

I have to admit if it were a much loved horse of mine I think I would take some big intimidating looking male friends with me in a trailer and just turn up and collect it. Politely initially and with documentary evidence that the pony is mine - but rather less politely and assertively if not. I would not trust the new 'keepers' given the blocking/duplicate passports etc. I'd get the pony back any which way and then deal with the legal side of things afterwards. I would imagine that once the pony is back in your possession that will be the end of the matter given that the other parties would not want to take you to court to get the pony back. But there is a risk at the time if they get very nasty about it. Hence taking back up with me. I'd wear a hat or body cam too and make sure they know it's recording any interactions.

But I appreciate that is a lot easier to say sat in the comfort of an armchair than actually doing it. But I can't imagine not doing it either if my pony had been stolen, the police did not want to know and I knew where he or she was.

 

[Orangehorse]

But the first loaners have stolen the pony as they moved it on to the extended family without permission. I would definitely report it as stolen to the Police as then you have something official to back you up. I think chat to the BHS first - I think you can do that without being a member.
I would also agree that you need to do something before the pony is moved to an unknown destination.

 

[The Trooper]

If I was in your position I would be taking the pony back (Peacefully of course ) and dealing with any consequences later.

Possession is 9/10ths of the law after all.

 

[AmyMay]

Any update OP??

 

[JanetGeorge]

I have no problem asking the police but will the police do this as we have heard so many stories about the police not wanting to get involved? We haven't proceeded with this legally yet (although we're looking into the process), but we know that we've only got one shot at this, and so we have to do this correctly/legally.

It is a civil matter and the police would ONLY get involved to prevent a breach of the peace. If you tried to take the pony, you would be escorted off the property (to prevent a breach of the peace) and be told to see a lawyer. I know because I was in a situation involving an unsound mare who was given to me as a brood mare - I had a lot of evidence that it WAS a gift for life - but the police weren't interested in 'the case' when they tried to steal the in-foal mare and her yearling filly (they were 'disturbed' in more ways than one, lol.) Ruddy idiots took me to court - and when the Judge saw the 'evidence' - and that the mare had been one of mine for nearly two years without them paying a penny towards her costs (they tried to claim she had been offered but I hadn't accepted s she was on livery free) they were laughed out of court. it was Small Claims and i didn't bother with a lawyer. Your position is a bit harder with it being on loan and no agreement - a passport isn't proof of ownership - so you would need to talk to a lawyer and - TBH - it will almost certainly cost far more than the pony is worth. Good luck.