Any farriers out there/foot experts? Repeated bruised soles.

Birker2020

Birker2020

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Five shoeings ago my horse went lame. I assumed it was his suspensory which he'd injured and recovered from some time before. Turned out it was a bruised sole, O/F, the vet took the shoe off, pared away at the sole and blood came out, the hoof was dressed with a hot wet poultice, then two days of dry poultice, and four days of sugar and iodine poultice. Shoe back on on day 8 and horse out and ridden from then on. Vet thought possible misplaced nail by farrier as horse shod three days before.

Next shoeing exactly the same thing. N/F, same treatment. Same length of recovery time. Vet thought possible misplace nail by farrier. Horse shod same day.

Next shoeing fine. No problems.
Shoeing after that fine, no problems.

Very slight unlevelness in flat lesson saturday which rectified. Jumped grid work this morning horse sound. Horse chased by dog in paddock today, came in sound, no swelling. Went back to check on horse five hours later, leg swollen around suspensory again. Iced and immediately down. Put on walker ten mins, leg down. Foot hot. WAIT FOR IT!!... Horse shod last Thursday.

Vet said horse not got laminitis. When I questionned this he was adamant (and a little angry) and said in no uncertain terms horse does not have laminitis. When asked what the farrier could do for next time he suggested maybe not take off so much horn, from the outside of the foot.

Same farrier for three years. Never had ANY problems with this farrier previously, the horse never even lost a single shoe or been lame as a result of a shoeing problem in his life (nine years I've owned him - he is aged 16)

I am really getting worried now. Do I go down the xray route to deffo rule out laminitis or founder?
Do I change the farrier? If so could it happen to another one?

From 'The Horse' website:

"It can occur as the result of excessive hoof trimming, or be associated with laminitis. Sole bruising can be an uncomplicated condition that responds to simple treatments, or be part of an underlying disease process that requires careful veterinary management. Be especially concerned if sole bruising occurs on a chronic basis. "In my experience, many horses with recurrent sole bruising problems actually have underlying laminitis (or some other problem)" warns Johnson. "Bruising is a common recurrent cause of lameness in foundered horses." WHAT DOES (OR SOME OTHER PROBLEM) MEAN EXACTLY??? WHAT OTHER PROBLEM???

"Along those same lines, should sole bruising become chronic, it is more likely that a subsolar abscess can develop, indicates Burba. "The infection may progress to the coffin bone, resulting in osteomyelitis. Pedal osteitis is another problem that might develop. This is a chronic inflammatory condition of the coffin bone that results in bone resorption and weakening of the bone. A pathologic fracture of the coffin bone could result." [/I]
PLEASE ANYONE HELP?
 
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I'm not an expert by any means. But, my last horse suffered in a very similar way to yours. However in his case I employed a terrible farrier for 3 years that had been gradually making a worse and worse job of shoeing my horse. I just wasn't educated in poor farriery enough to recognise this and as many other like me, trusted that he was doing a good job.
In order to stop my horse from suffering from the repeated bruising to his sole caused by pressure of his shoe the farrier in question flattened the shoe over the sore area. I was told this would help and it did seem to. I also had him on a daily low level of bute as prescribed by the vet to tackle long term chronic bruising.
Eventually I woke up to the situation and employed a new farrier. He told me the only way to heal my horses hoof was to take his shoes off and allow him to heal himself. I used hoof boots for 8 months and he grew the best hooves he had ever had. I reshod him again after a yard move meant he was struggling over the new yards very stoney tracks. And he was absolutely fine with shoes back on.
Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me will come along and give you some advice but that is my experience for what it is worth.
I hope you do get to the route of your problem though.
 
Nickles1973 said:
I'm not an expert by any means. But, my last horse suffered in a very similar way to yours. However in his case I employed a terrible farrier for 3 years that had been gradually making a worse and worse job of shoeing my horse. I just wasn't educated in poor farriery enough to recognise this and as many other like me, trusted that he was doing a good job. .
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That's whats known as thinking outside the box and you may have just given me my answer. I never thought of it in that way before. THank you. That is something worth thinking about.

Trouble is the vet rates this farrier really highly. :(

With your hoof boots did you have to have them put on every day? I presume you can't leave them on overnight in the stable can you?
 
My vet highly recommended my farrier too :( In fact the farrier shod the vets own horses. However when I showed pictures that I took of my horses deformed (can't think of a better word) hooves before I took his shoes off everyone (including) vets are shocked....
In fact when my horse went foot sore just before I had him reshod the same vet told me I should consider de-nerving him or calling it a day. That was when I sacked the vet too.
He only needed the hoof boots for riding. I never turned out in them or stabled in them, although the equine fusion boots that I used would have been fine for both if needs be. I did fully embrace the whole barefoot diet though which I still do to this day as I am certain that it is essential to success. As I feel it's the correct way to feed all horses barefoot or shod.
In your case I would have a look around for a new farrier. Interview a few. They are usually quite happy to come along and give advise although they don't like to undermine other farriers work, they will usually say what they might do differently ;) Then maybe post on a few local facebook horsey pages for recommendations.
As I said my case might be totally different, but something isn't quite right for your pony and it can't hurt to get other opinions.
 
Nickles1973 said:
My vet highly recommended my farrier too :( In fact the farrier shod the vets own horses. However when I showed pictures that I took of my horses deformed (can't think of a better word) hooves before I took his shoes off everyone (including) vets are shocked....
In fact when my horse went foot sore just before I had him reshod the same vet told me I should consider de-nerving him or calling it a day. That was when I sacked the vet too.
He only needed the hoof boots for riding. I never turned out in them or stabled in them, although the equine fusion boots that I used would have been fine for both if needs be. I did fully embrace the whole barefoot diet though which I still do to this day as I am certain that it is essential to success. As I feel it's the correct way to feed all horses barefoot or shod.
In your case I would have a look around for a new farrier. Interview a few. They are usually quite happy to come along and give advise although they don't like to undermine other farriers work, they will usually say what they might do differently ;) Then maybe post on a few local facebook horsey pages for recommendations.
As I said my case might be totally different, but something isn't quite right for your pony and it can't hurt to get other opinions.
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Thank you for your help. I have also emailed the chap Philip J Johnson from the University of Missouri who did the article I quoted from to see if he can offer any further advice. He originates from the UK so might feel like being nice to me!
 
I am no expert, but to me, paring the soles is totally contra indicated.
I would take the shoes off, as soon as you think practical, feed as for barefoot horse, and see how it goes. You need to feed for hoof growth, I would have him on pro hoof [pro earth on ebay], and a no sugar/molasses/moglo/lickits diet.
You will need to help him recover, with gentle exercise on surfaces he can accept.

Is working a horse with a suspensory recommended the recommended treatment, I am not clear why a suspensory should go down after being on the walker for ten minutes. What about cold hosing and other treatments?

Before rushing in to things, I would stop working the horse, concentrate on getting him sound over the next two weeks.
Find out about possible scenarios and treatments.

How good is your vet practice, you need a good equine vet, not every vet can diagnose rotated pedal bone [this is true!]

There are barefoot forums, and on here there are plenty of posts.
I would forbid ANY further paring of sole, what is that about?
 
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Before I started changing farrier, diet or giving bute on a regular basis I'd want x-rays. They won't rule out laminitis since they'll only show if there's rotation or dropping & they won't show soft tissue damage, but they'll hopefully give you an idea of what you're dealing with.
 
MrsD123 said:
I
Is working a horse with a suspensory recommended the recommended treatment, I am not clear why a suspensory should go down after being on the walker for ten minutes. What about cold hosing and other treatments?

How good is your vet practice, you need a good equine vet, not every vet can diagnose rotated pedal bone [this is true!]


I would forbid ANY further paring of sole, what is that about?
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Hi. The horse has a recovered lateral branch suspensory injury which was treated with shock wave, PRP, LW ultrasound, cold therapy, etc at the time. Twelve months on fine, but was aggravated again last June due to getting his leg stuck in a wheelbarrow at the yard whilst I was at work! It has recovered well (although he has not gone back to the former level he was jumping at yet), and the horse is back out jumping and dressaging and no sign of a problem, but the vet said if there is suspected swelling and heat over the area which doesn't respond to ice or horse walker then box rest and start cold therapy again. This is why its useful to put on the walker or ice to check as obviously not all swelling is due to suspensory problems, it can be due to other factors also.

As the swelling went down I can only assume as the hoof is hot, the horse was shod on Thursday and we have been through this scenario twice already in the last five shoeing the horse has a bruised sole. The first two occassions he had the bruised sole I didn't realise it was his foot that had made his leg swell and spent hours with ice cups and much heartache before realising (thanks to the vet) that the problem was foot related and not a reoccurence of his suspensory.

The blood which builds up in the hoof (haematoma) needs to escape as its the pressure that makes the horse lame as the blood presses on the sensitive structures of the foot. Without escape the blood would track up the foot like an abcess that is not drained would. So the vet/farrier pars the sole to remove the blood and then it is treated as for an abscess with the animalintex, etc.

The veterinary practice I use is one of the biggest and best in the West Midlands, CHEC if anyone knows by this abbrreviation. My vet ES is wonderful and has treated my horse with his spavin and suspensory wonderfully and I would hesitate to change them. I can only say good about them.
 
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Nari said:
Before I started changing farrier, diet or giving bute on a regular basis I'd want x-rays. They won't rule out laminitis since they'll only show if there's rotation or dropping & they won't show soft tissue damage, but they'll hopefully give you an idea of what you're dealing with.
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I text the farrier last night and he will take the shoe off later today. I rang the vet and have provisionally arranged for him to come out tomorrow and take xrays of both front feet to see if we can rule out pedal ostosis or osteomyelitis. I say provisionally as I won't know if it is his feet until later today and I can get up there.
 
I think I'd want xrays of his feet to see what is going on if he is getting repeated bruising even if it isn't his feet this time. Check position of pedal bone/sole thickness etc before deciding how to proceed.
 
ester said:
I think I'd want xrays of his feet to see what is going on if he is getting repeated bruising even if it isn't his feet this time. Check position of pedal bone/sole thickness etc before deciding how to proceed.
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I am thinking pedalosteosis and mentioned it to the vet and he was thinking the same thing. I hope it isn't that. But at least I will have an answer.
 
Applecart, if it is pedal oestitis then don't panic. My horse was diagnosed with po and navicular in Sept 12, he went down to Rockley in Nov 12 and has been barefoot (and sound) ever since and is in full work preparing for our first event season.

I re xrayed in August 13 and the bone is re developing, particularly around the pedal damage so it is not all doom and gloom and it is definitely not a degenerative condition in my experience.
 
Leg_end said:
Applecart, if it is pedal oestitis then don't panic. My horse was diagnosed with po and navicular in Sept 12, he went down to Rockley in Nov 12 and has been barefoot (and sound) ever since and is in full work preparing for our first event season.

I re xrayed in August 13 and the bone is re developing, particularly around the pedal damage so it is not all doom and gloom and it is definitely not a degenerative condition in my experience.
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Thank you. I have been told my horse is not a suitable candidate for going barefoot. :( Apparently the vet says his soles are too flat, and he is too heavy set. He is 17.1hh, weighs around 700KG and has spavin (which has had fusion treatment) and moderate to severe arthritis in his coffin joint. Apparently. He still jumps 1m and does novice dressage without showing any signs of lameness. GRRr. If only there was a majic wand.
 
I would give Nic at Rockley Farm a call, re flat feet, there is a chicken and egg situation, also I recall one of her comments which suggested the feet may look "flat" in a bigger horse than in a pony, but that it is the depth of the collateral grooves which are relevant.

You may need to educate yourself so that you can take a balanced view. First Feet is a good book to start off with and Nic has a number of essentials on feet ......... OK they are all barefoot, but a lot of the information applies to all feet.

all the horse she takes in for re-habilitation meet certain criteria, so she knows a lot about feet!
 
Do you know why the soles are so flat? ie is the pedal bone not sitting correctly? I don't think flat soles are a prerequisite for not being able to go barefoot as it usually improves them significantly! (and is also deemed generally good for spavin afaik and def creates more supportive soft tissue for coffin joint arthritis. Can't comment on his size but have you ever spoken to Nic?
 
Applecart, I can't comment specifically as I am not aware of how barefoot could affect the fused spavin or coffin joint arthritis but, the horse I originally referred to was 16.3 and almost 600Kgs. He had thoroughbred hooves which were so flat and soles so soft they flexed under thumb pressure (at their worst) He used to tremble with pain when being shod if the farrier took more than one shoe off at a time :( I was told repeatedly he could not go barefoot. With a change of diet alone the sole sensitivity improved and he managed 8 months barefoot. Being ridden in hoof boots. I would not disregard out of hand on the say so of any vet. Also have you heard of the new Easy shoe range?? They are an alternative approach to going bare as maybe an interim measure?? Maybe worth discussing with a farrier??
 
Nickles1973 said:
AI would not disregard out of hand on the say so of any vet. Also have you heard of the new Easy shoe range?? They are an alternative approach to going bare as maybe an interim measure?? Maybe worth discussing with a farrier??
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Slight update. When I visited the horse yesterday lunch time (I had yesterday and today off work as A/L) his leg wasn't up and his hoof wasn't hot. I hand led him in small tight circles and never got the reaction that I had had previously when he had a bruised sole. I also hit the side of a heavy massage brush against his nail holes on the shoe and got no reaction. To see what his hoof/leg would do I went for an hours hack walk only and untacked. Ten mins later his leg was up and warm and his hoof warm to touch again. Again it went down with the application of ice. I am now contemplating suspensory branch has been tweaked again - this could have been due to being chased in his paddock by the dog on Sunday. The mud is so gloopy at the moment as its gradually starting to dry out. I didn't believe it was that originally as it was to much a coincidence with the shoeing only three days before.

I told the farrier to not come out and remove the shoes in case the vet thinks the same as me. He is due at 1pm today. If he doesn't think its his suspensory I will ask the vet to remove his shoes and xray and go from there. My vet is talking glue on shoes but how this would possibly work when his paddock is in eight to ten inches of mud in places is beyond me.

I got a reply from the chap whose article I quoted from. He was most helpful. He suggests it could be due to possible cushings/laminitis and also felt excessive hoof trimming could have a part to play in it. He recommended xrays. He didn't feel that it would be down to pedal osteotis as the horse wouldn't be okay in between shoeings and jumping/dressaging at the level he does if there was a problem.
 
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In 42 years as a farrier I have never came across a horse that was born with flat feet.
So it follows that ALL FLAT FEET ARE MANMADE. (that includes TB!)
It also follows that if man would only recognise the ability the horse has to self correct then giving a prognosis becomes more positive and effective.
I am sorry to say but reading your original message I get the feeling that your farrier and vet are not working as a team.
1) All professional contact should be done direct, this avoids any misunderstanding, therefore your vet should have spoken (and met with) your farrier at the stable BEFORE cutting any sole away.
2) If the vet feels the farrier could or should be doing something in the way of treatment then this (by law) must be in the form of a referral.
If the x-rays show ‘thin soles’ ( that’s where my money will be!) the vet will without doubt say the horse can not go without shoes, may need pads, ect ect. If the sole are indeed thin then please ask both professionals, how and why they are.
I am quite happy to answer this question as I get at least 3 referrals a week with thin soles, but I would be very interested to know their reply.
My final worry: why would you cut into a bruise? The only way a bruise will heal is by getting blood to the area, thus creating more tissue to protect it, and then absorbing or scuffing the extra tissue when the area is healed.
By cutting away sole tissue ( when you don’t believe you are looking for an abscess) seems a little odd to me.
Feel free to PM me if you would like any help.
 
Heelfirst said:
In 42 years as a farrier I have never came across a horse that was born with flat feet.
So it follows that ALL FLAT FEET ARE MANMADE. (that includes TB!)
It also follows that if man would only recognise the ability the horse has to self correct then giving a prognosis becomes more positive and effective.
I am sorry to say but reading your original message I get the feeling that your farrier and vet are not working as a team.
1) All professional contact should be done direct, this avoids any misunderstanding, therefore your vet should have spoken (and met with) your farrier at the stable BEFORE cutting any sole away.
2) If the vet feels the farrier could or should be doing something in the way of treatment then this (by law) must be in the form of a referral.
If the x-rays show ‘thin soles’ ( that’s where my money will be!) the vet will without doubt say the horse can not go without shoes, may need pads, ect ect. If the sole are indeed thin then please ask both professionals, how and why they are.
I am quite happy to answer this question as I get at least 3 referrals a week with thin soles, but I would be very interested to know their reply.
My final worry: why would you cut into a bruise? The only way a bruise will heal is by getting blood to the area, thus creating more tissue to protect it, and then absorbing or scuffing the extra tissue when the area is healed.
By cutting away sole tissue ( when you don’t believe you are looking for an abscess) seems a little odd to me.
Feel free to PM me if you would like any help.
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Very impressed
 
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