any opinions on this?

J

Jericho

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 February 2008
Messages
2,568
Visit site
Not sure what title to give this post but was hoping someone could shed some light on this 'problem' for me, please... Its a long 'un but I want to give all the facts to give you the full picture.....

I have had my new loan mare for 4 months now and she is a cracking little mare, jumps, dressage, go anywhere, do anything with type. She has manners to die for and really is foot perfect on the ground - virtually with no restraint at all - can be clipped, shod, pulled mane and tail, hacks out alone, stands quitely at shows, loads, can be left on her own, I have yet to find something which has stressed her.

She is quite eager to ride, it seems like she will run on adrenalin for ever and is quite strong but nothing ever silly. She is fairly tense to ride but does do some nice work and the focus is to get her to work long and low. Interestingly if you ride with hard hands and agressive attitude and get after her with nagging leg she immediately accepts the contact and looks like she is 'on the bit' but the backend is all but disappeared. But this is improving with regular lessons. To all intents and purposes she is an extremely well balanced (mentally) horse.

She is 12 years old and her background is eventing but only to Novice level and I understand that a fairly well known event rider had her for the early part of her life and then she was used to train event riders for a while. She then has had a number of owners all who have evented her quite successfully. There is nothing on her record to suggest she had any issues and certainly she doesnt have many hang ups except this one.....she doesnt seem to like humans.

She tolerates us almost because she knows she doesnt have a choice. She either has a slightly wary look to her eye or a bored one. She politely moves her head away if you try to give her 'affection' and doesnt react if you give her scratches on her withers. And perhaps the most annoyingly 90% of the time she wont be caught and runs off even before I am 20m away from her (and bear in mind that I only ride once/twice a week so 5 or 6 times she is coming in to be fed and she LOVES her food - its the only time she appears animated or pleased to see me!) The only way I can catch her when she is like that is to catch my other horse and let her run into the small field and then she will be caught but then is very nervy like she is expecting a telling off. She wont even come near me if I have a bucket of food. If you raise your voice near her she isnt particularly worried just looks worried but I have noticed that she is scared of any quick movements with the rope and headcollar again like she has been whacked with it.

I am not an overly fluffy bunny so dont expect my horses to adore me (although my big lad is the most affectionate horse I have ever known and will follow me round like a big dog even though he is stress head geenerally) but I am increasingly finding it difficult when I feel that this horse would rather be anywhere else but near me, tolerates any interaction - ridden or lunge work or anything - only because she 'has' to. I know 4 months isnt a huge amount of time but I feel she has absoliutely no more bond with me than when she arrived.

Sometimes I just feel like why do I bother as I dont really get much back from her, if anything its negative vibes. If her owner offered to sell her to me, I should be snapping her arm off but at the moment I feel very dissillusioned by her aloofness and probably wouldnt.

Is this just over submission? Will she ever change? Would some ..pause.. speaks in hushed voice.... parelli work with her? What has happened to this mare in the past? its not that I think she has particularly been beaten by humans, or has major trust issues but something is just not right..

Thanks for reading all this. I am hoping someone with an interest in horse psychology can help me and my little mare.
 
When you mentioned that she's been with a few owners that generally hinted why she may be reserved with you. Have you tried grooming her with another horse close (possible security for her) as this may create more of a bond.

I would give the parelli a try - what have you got to lose?
 
I knew a mare exactly like the one you're describing. I honestly think she'd become "professional", she was used to being used for a "job" when around humans, not to being a pet.

She did change, but it took a lot of time and fuss. She was never as affectionate as the others, but was no longer disappearing into herself whenever people were around.

Don't give up on her, she's probably viewing you as her new "boss" at the moment, rather than her new "mummy", as it's what she's used to.
 
sounds like my old mare. she didnt want to know. she tollerated me, and every now and again, she would give in and enjoy a rub on her bum but she would rather be doing her own thing. so i let her. the best thing about her is that when we were out competing, i knew she would try her hardest for me. and 99.9% of the time, she did. so in the end, i stopped forcing myself on her. she tried her heart out when i needed her too so i felt id let her be independant in return. she always looked happy (unless i was crowding her space) but we had a connection under saddle and she turned out to be the best little JA pony we'd ever had.

some horses, especially mares, just like to do their own thing.
 
hmmm i worked in a big event yard as a groom for a while, all the horses where beautifully looked after, well fed, groomed, legs washed daily, massage machines, had best of evrything didnt want for anything.. but i didnt like it, it was as if they were machines and had no personality.. could it be from being on a yard such as this.. just a thought x
 
Sounds just like a horse who I brought back into work for a friend in the Summer. He is 18 and had evented for other owners before that. He was a bit distant and aloof like you describe. Wasnt particuarly affectionate and never heard him whinny. I spent quite a lot of time looking after him for one reason and another and we got quite a bond going in the end. I gave him lots of treats, (prob wrong in some peoples minds) and he went from ears back to forward. Got him going out on his own for hacks and managed to clip him without sedation. I do wonder if it was to do with his eventing background, lots of comps and stabling at different places, changing ownership and not really bonding with anyone, just doing his job. He turned out to be a smashing horse and his personality came out over time, I just think he needed to relate to one person. This may well happen with your and your mare, maybe shes similar in just been used to doing a "job" without the personal stuff going on.
Personally I would give it time, thats how it worked with me and the one I looked after. Unfortunately, his owner has moved him to a full livery yard now and I do miss him. Just worry that he will revert back but maybe not. He was lovely and it was so rewarding to see the little chinks of his personality shine through eventually. Dont give up on her and maybe give her a bit of breathing space between now and Spring when you will probably want to do more with her when the weather improves etc.

Good luck. (it would be so much easier if they could talk!!)
 
I think it is too much to expect her to trust you just yet after her previous life.
Since we've kept horses in a herd situation I've been humbled to see what they expect out of life and what appears to make them happy.
When the newly retired ones arrive here most look apprehensive in their eyes for some months, almost as if they can't quite believe all anyone wants from them is to exist with ample food and companions. At some point, usually anything from 3 months to 6 months you see them visibly relax and sort of accept this is their life now, and they only ever get worried if you attempt to remove them from the herd, in fact they get so stressed it's not nice to watch. The horses in work are never kept like this within the main herd as they need their bonds breaking by being put with just a few companions.
Your mare is I think keeping her distance deliberately to avoid any sort of commitment on her part, perhaps she feels it's just a matter of time before she will be moved on again. Plus she may need a long time to trust you as someone she actually likes, it's not just about who feeds them!
Going off topic a bit it's not easy knowing how attached the home breds are to their siblings and home when they have to leave. A horse who is ultra confident and high up in the herd hierarchy can revert to sort of silent behaviour in their new home, I think in many cases it's a massive trauma for them.
I always feel dreadful when I meet one of my home breds after a gap and they show their obvious pleasure to see me, it isn't me personally, I think perhaps they think they might be returning home to their mates and families when they smell and recognise the connection via me.
Once upon a time I would have scoffed at a post like mine, but trust me, when you have spent many many hours watching them interact you get taught such a lot.
How horses pick coloured groups to graze with. How family groups allow relatives to join with them despite the new horse being bred off the place and meeting it for the first time..
I think your mare might settle if she is given enough security by familiar surroundings and making friends with another horse, having seen my lot it's really sad seeing horses kept on their own, it appears an essential part of horse happiness is time with their friends away from humans, so try and make sure she gets the right combination of circumstances to make her settle, just because a horse eats up doesn't mean it's happy with life..
Sorry if I've banged on a bit but if you asked the average horse what would make their lives happy, I bet cuddles from their owner or even a relationship wouldn't enter into it..I'd enjoy your gelding who sounds human orientated and just let the mare take her time..
wink.gif
 
my mare is like this to an extent and again a "been there done it" type....
my instructor who has known fliss for ages says she been like it for a long time and is an "indepandant" type
i've had fliss 2.5 years now and she has affectionate moments very occasionally and its great but the rest of time she pulls faces and i swear at her and thats how it goes!
i think its a bit of mare thing to be honest....

having said that tho she may not seem to love me as much as the other horses i've had but she does try hard for me when i ask her to do something!!!

what i'm trying to say is give her more time to settle it took fliss ages

smile.gif
 
i have a gelkding i bought 3 years ago because i felt sorry for him, he hates humans being near him and does bite and kick , nut he is fabby to ride i used t try and get him to enjoy being touched groomed etc but now i just let him do his own thing and accept that he isnt a cuddly horse
 
I think some horses don't actually like us very much. Often with good reason. Plus they are different personalities. Not all people want to be affectionate to someone they just met either.

I would just offer a note of caution about parelli though. If your mare has been taught her job in a non parelli style then it may just confuse and threaten her. I know parelli say they speak"horse" and all horses speak horse too but sometimes horses who have only been spoken to in human find the change of language distressing and thretening. At the end of the day we are different species and if she has been taught - possibly quite firmly - that humans behave a certain way and expect a certain response from her then that is, for now at least, where she is comfortable and what she understands.
 
Henryhorn - thank you for taking the time to write that. What you say makes very good sense and seems to resonate with my mare.

She isnt a nasty mare at all, I havent ever seen her put her ears back or raise a leg in the 4 months I have had her so she doesnt actively hate humans, she is just very insular. I believe her lifestyle here is very different to the one she had before, here she is kept at home with just my boy, theres not much activity going on and I am very laid back with my horses i.e not much routine other than feeding at fairly consistent times. This is very much the kind of home her owner wanted for her.... although when I saw her she was kept out 24/7 in a fairly large herd but ridden (90% of the time schooled or lunged) and previous to that who knows but I think it was at eventing yards. So the change must be quite a shock for her and one I didnt really think about - I just thought ahh she will love it , no stress, no work, lots of attention! I dont think she is used to a one to one human contact and her old owner although very knoweledgeable didnt really strike me a someone who gave a lot of affection. And yes it is easy to talk about love and expecting horses to give affection but they dont necessarily need it to make them happy - its so easy to project human characteristics on to a horse

You have all made me just reasses this sensibly. I am now looking forward to the summer when I can spend some time just being with her, grooming etc and hopefully the bond will build. I certainly wont force it on her and will accept that some horses are just like that.
 
My mare is exactly the same. Aloof, independent and doesn't seek any sort of affection from myself or even other horses. However, if we go somewhere to compete, she'll be constantly looking out for me. If I disappear to collect number, she'll look out for me within a crowd and visibly relax when I'm back in view.
She's incredibly tense to ride and, silly as it sounds, I get the feeling it's because she feels she needs to look out for danger for both of us - which can be very frustrating as a rider.
She's a sucker for routine - and won't be caught if I've been away for a few days.
Recently, I've been having acupuncture and have benefitted mentally and physically so thought I should give it a go on her. As vets who do acupuncture are few and far between, I opted for shiatsu (which works on the same points, but without the needles). After two sessions, the results were staggering. She was so tense for the first sessions that the shiatsu lady found it difficult to feel her skeleton through her tight muscles, horsey wouldn't allow herself to relax into the treatment. Physically, she looked like a different horse after two sessions. Soft, loose and not wooden at all. Even touching her feels different. She's also finally got rid of a cough that she has whenever stabled through the winter (she has bad summer allergies aswell)
Yesterday was her third session and she finally let herself enjoy it which, as an owner, was a real pleasure to see. I know some people may think it's a load of bunkam but perhaps it's something you could look into for your horse to help her learn how to relax and see if she's a bit imbalanced in one of her 'elements'.
Honestly, having seen how it's helped my mare, after years of calmers, low energy feed, vets fees (for coughing and snot) I'm a convert. So much so that maybe, this year the spooky monkey may even win us a dressage rosette
wink.gif
 
It can take Aaaaaaaaaaaages to bond with a mare. Sounds like shes been moved from pillar to post, has been looked after well but by lots of different people and she hasnt had a one to one to bring out her character.
My mare was a little like yours when I got her but she could be more agressive. She had been in a big racing stud, treated as a number, handled by different people. She used to get that 'dead eyed' look and i really didnt like her much at first and she didnt like me.
It took a good 18 months to bond with my mare. Your mare will probably take a long time as well, especially as she has been moved around between different yards and people most of her life.
When you do bond though, it will be the tightest bond and her character will gradually show itself.
You can see the close bonds horses build with other horses and although they will never connect with us in the same way, she will come to recognise you and to trust you with being herself more.

I didnt do parelli with my horse but as my mare had some issues when I got her I did find some of the Monty Roberts methods worked really well. She enjoyed this form of interaction and it was very humbling to have such an independant horse like that follow me around and be so submissive, but in a gentle, happy way.

Perservere, you will get there and it will be very rewarding. I was so close with my mare that when she got very frightened, I only had to talk to her gently and she would instantly listen. Instead of panicking and rushing away she would put her head to me and let me cuddle and soothe her. Considering when I first got her she wouldnt even let me in the stable it was a big thing.

Her real character was actually one of great fun and kindness, I never would have thought that in the early days when all I got was a sulky, dead look or a wild eyed, ears back 'im gonna kill you' look!

Dont give up on your girl, maybe you are what she needs
smile.gif
 
Sounds like she is quite machine like in her attitude. She possiby hasn't been shown a lot of affection if she has been used as a 'professional'. it took my mare way longer than 4 months to bond with me and let down her guard. She always had a barrier up. It wasn't til she had an accident and was in horsepital for 10 days and box rest for 3 months that things changed. I would sit in with her to keep her company, would groom or even just sit and read a book. She has only ever lets her guard down with me and is a pleasure to ride now, no tension at all.
My thoughts would be to give it time, don't put pressure on it and let her come to you.
She's not chestnut by any chance lol
 
there is absolutely no reason why parelli would help you, other than the fact that you'd be spending mroe time wiht her on the ground - whihc you can dow ithout spendinhg a load of money on all the stuff!! Parelli is just a whole load of negative reinforcement (pressure-release) which will maek her look like she's obeying you very sweetly, but ther'es absolutely NO reason why it would improve your relationship with her.

I think the best thing to do really is just to spend time wiht her as yourself - all the time just thinking how can you make her want to be around you. Go adn give her just a pat and a scratc and a carrot sometimes in the field then leave; bring her in for some affection, just be really nice to her and put her out. Give it some time, but think about what you're doing. you ahve to give her reasons to like you and want to be with you.
 
[ QUOTE ]
there is absolutely no reason why parelli would help you, other than the fact that you'd be spending mroe time wiht her on the ground - whihc you can dow ithout spendinhg a load of money on all the stuff!! Parelli is just a whole load of negative reinforcement (pressure-release) which will maek her look like she's obeying you very sweetly, but ther'es absolutely NO reason why it would improve your relationship with her.


[/ QUOTE ]

Although I'm not a Parelli person, I am inclined to disagree somewhat with these comments. I have done some Monty Roberts / Kelly Marks type work on the ground with my horse (he used to be very bargy, rude and could be aggressive with no respect at all for personal space or anyone on the ground) and, using it to teach manners aside, it's actually quite a nice way to spend some time with your horse. I rarely use it for manners with my horse now (though last night I did 15 mins of it because he was v rude on the yard, as he does still try it on, so after mucking out I did a bit in the arena with him to reinforce things) but, done properly, it's worth doing. Mine enjoys it and although he's generally not a cuddly horse at all, it's the only time he really likes having a good scratch and stroke for doing something correctly. We do things like figures of 8s or serpentines in and out of lines of cones (done properly, it's actually v good for getting them stepping under and through with inside hind on the turns, so great for my arthiritic horse), work over poles, backing up through poles which he thinks is a great excuse for playing, turns on the forehand, Qs, side stepping, all sorts. As long as you recognise when they've made an effort, I don't find I now ever need the negative reinforcment. Just make sure you heap the praise on when they do something right.

My horse isn't particularly cuddly but he does seem to enjoy getting a good scratch and fuss when he's done groundwork well. Maybe he thinks he's earnt it then! He came from a huge yard (100+ horses I think... polo yard), had been there for 13 years and I had him from his breeder. He was only ever handled by the grooms so he isn't really used to much one to one attention, and they're v matter of fact about things. He doesn't seek out human company particularly, after 18 months he does now ask me for a scratch when I first arrive at the yard but that is it as far as he's concerned. The only time he ever wants more than that is if he's in 24/7 for any reason so doesn't have access to other horses for grooming. I think that some horses are just this way, as some people are.

For the OP, I actually think some MR type groundwork might be a nice way to do something with the mare that isn't ridden work, and maybe is different to anything else she has done. Also how about something like clicker training?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top