Any shoeing experts? - 2 abcess's in last two shoeings, HELP!!

[Birker2020]

About six weeks ago my horse was shod by my usual farrier who I have used for the past 3.5 years. My vet highly rates him as his work is very good, and is one of the preferred farrier’s my vet recommends.

Two days after being shod Bailey became lame. Whilst ridden he was sound but between getting off and untacking him he showed lameness which gradually increased overnight. The next day I took him to my vets (he was due an assessment for his suspensory injury anyway). The vet said he thought he had an abcess and found a badly bruised sole where he thinks the farrier may have attempted to put a nail in and then realised for whatever reason it was placed wrongly and took it out again. Alternatively the vet said he may have stood on a stone (maybe following our ride) - I am guessing the vet didn’t want to implicate the farrier. Anyway a day of wet poultice followed by two days of dry and five days of iodine mixed with sugar on the foot and the horse was fine and had a shoe back on.

Roll on five weeks and my horse is shod again. Later that day I go up the yard after work to find my horse with a swollen warm leg and seeing his rug in his stable think he’s got tangled up in it.So I treated it with icing (ice cup and ice boots) and bandaging and bute. Vet due four days later for flu and tet and the horse getting slightly lamer every day. Asked the vet to just squeeze foot with pincers in case it was the shoeing again and low and behold the horse was very reactive. The vet took the shoe off and pared away – the horse was in a lot of pain and it was very difficult to see him in the state he was in, even though he was hurting he never made any attempt to bite the vet like most horses would have, he just kept turning his head to look at him to say “excuse me but you are rather hurting me”! Anyway out comes blood and here we are today, day two of poulticing and another seven days box rest.

Spoke to farrier who was very apologetic but feels he hasn’t done anything different either time and was convinced the first abcess wasn’t his fault. He did say he would reimburse me (presumably meant shoeing cost) but when I asked my vet if I should ditch him he said no he felt it wasn’t his fault and my horses walls of his feet are quite thin and he thinks he is finding it difficult to keep shoes on. All very well and good but its cost me about £220 quid so far in vets bills!

I really want to keep the farrier as I’ve had about 35 shoeings with him now, he is very good at his job and tries his hardest to balance Bails feet due to his various issues, and I have never had a problem before seven weeks ago with the first abcess.

What would you do, keep or ditch? And would you use Keratex hoof hardener or go with the long term biotin supplement – vet says this will take 12 months to take affect.

Double chocca mocha and slice of mud pie for getting this far!

 

[mightymammoth]

I would give a good hoof supplement, i use forage plus hoof health balancer after a run of 4 abscesses. Since starting the forage plus we've never had one.
http://forageplus.co.uk/abscesses-and-poor-hoof-quality/

 

[twiggy2]

an abcess is infection-I would expect to see puss NOT blood

has it been the same foot both times?

did you get any muck out when poulticing?

I would always suggest a good supplement such as pro-hoof

35 x shoeing is well over three years and you have had one problem that may or may not be down to the farrier and you are thinking of changing to a different one? I think that is a bit rash TBH

to me blood would indicate the vet has pared too deep or it was a bruise NOT an abcess, or there is something else going on

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Photos of your horse's hooves would be really helpful.

When my mare's hooves started to go long in the toe and under-run at the heels, she started to get abscesses for the first time due to the fact that her white line was also stretched. In hindsight I should have sacked the Farrier sooner than I did, but three Vets were happy with his work. It was only the fourth Vet that confirmed my opinion (sadly I had no confidence in myself V a professional who blamed the horse's breed - the 'TB's have crappy hooves' lie) that things were not right. I got a new Farrier and things improved from there.

Biotin alone isn't really enough IMO. You need a good supplement like the Pro-earth or Forage Plus ones. I wouldn't use Keratex HH as it contains formaldehyde/formalin which is a carcinogenic. The supplement only affects the new growth, so your Vet is right, it will take a few months to have a whole hoof capsule grow out.

 

[amandap]

Have at look at the photo on this blog showing the tiny margin for error when nailing. http://www.barefoothorseblog.blogspot.ie/2010/03/do-horseshoes-hurt-horses.html

If your horse has thin soles and obvious bruising of the sole this may be a big factor in abscessing and lameness. I would look closely at diet as a way of improving the heath of hooves especially growing thicker soles. If mineral supplementation and low sugar diet don't help then you may have to consider testing for metabolic conditions.
Here's a short article on thin soles. http://www.hoofrehab.com/WhyThinSoles.html


Also think about getting one of these for when shoe has to be removed. http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Boots/Hoof-Wraps-Hoof-Bandage

Sorry can't help about shoeing per se.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

If you've been happy with your farrier thus far, and as it sounds as is he's been apologetic and concerned, then think I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt. TBH it sounds to me as if the vet might have done more damage than the farrier. What is it with vets and paring knives? I had to wrestle the knife out of my vet's hands last time one of mine had a suspected abscess, she was happily digging a crater in my horse's sole!

You don't mention diet but maybe it needs a rethink? If your diet is balanced, then you shouldn't need a hoof supplement - supplementing biotin will only make a difference if the diet is deficient in biotin to start with.

And no to the Keratex - I did use it for a bit when I first took shoes off but not for long - as Faracat has pointed out, it contains formaldehyde and that just can't be good! There aren't any miracle hoof potions (although plenty claim to be!), healthy hooves come from a good diet and lots of work.

Do you need to keep shoeing him over winter, maybe take his shoes off and give his hooves a break for a few weeks?

 

[Brightbay]

After a whole series of abscesses despite feeding low sugar diet, restricted grazing and a good mineral supplement, last year I finally gave in and bought the Forageplus stuff. 10 months on and not only have we not had any more abscesses, horse is much happier over a variety of challenging surfaces, hoof quality is better, long standing thrush problem cleared up and physio says his topline has improved (we didn't change anything except the supplement...).

I know that's a barefoot horse, but problems with shoeing and nail bind often happen because of the same hoof issues - the farrier will be doing his best, but as walls get thinner and the hoof runs forward, his job will be more difficult with even less margin for error. So the same supplement will also benefit shod feet.

Here's a link to Foreageplus explaining why it seems to work so well...
https://forageplus.co.uk/abscesses-and-poor-hoof-quality/

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

an abcess is infection-I would expect to see puss NOT blood

has it been the same foot both times?

did you get any muck out when poulticing?

I would always suggest a good supplement such as pro-hoof

35 x shoeing is well over three years and you have had one problem that may or may not be down to the farrier and you are thinking of changing to a different one? I think that is a bit rash TBH

to me blood would indicate the vet has pared too deep or it was a bruise NOT an abscess, or there is something else going on

The thing that worries me it that the farrier has had had 35 shoe-ings, and assuming you have been having them done when needed, say every six weeks, he is struggling to balance the feet!. I have worked with hundreds or N.H. racehorses [all T.B.] and have yet to see "typical" TB feet as described so often on here. Most racing yards are very careful about the diet, and about the farrier.
Start on the barefoot diet, read up about the barefoot regime and think about it.............. you can start with the hinds and see how it goes.
If you are feeding a good hi fibre diet with balanced minerals, and 100-200gms micronised linseed, [cut out molasses/moglo, and probably alfa] you will see an event line in about 4-6 weeks and the sole should improve significantly over about two months. The hoof capsule will tighten up over a period of about three months, assuming no illness.
I would be straight on to Pro Hoof [introduce over seven days] from pro earth on ebay.

 

[Heelfirst]

With the right diet and conditions every horse should have perfect feet, irrespective of breed or type.
When I take on the management of my clients horses feet it is my responsibility along with the vet to either create good feet or keep them into good order.
My worry with your horse is that it seems you are having to act on a damage limitation rather than creating a good, sound balanced set of feet.
Get the team (farrier and vet) together in the stable and don’t let them out till they have fully discussed and diagnosed the problem, they then must presented you with a prognosis that involves everyone pulling in the same direction.

 

[Birker2020]

Start on the barefoot diet, read up about the barefoot regime and think about it.............. you can start with the hinds and see how it goes.

After reading about Rockey Farm and all the other blogs about barefoot, etc I did think this could be a solution but the vet didn't think that my horse would be suitable to go barefoot.

Unfortunately my friend and I have just paid out £100 to have a sub base put on our gateway to prevent poaching and the stones would be too much for his feet plus my vet thought he was too big and too flat footed (didn't think he was at all) for him to cope with going barefoot. I also do a considerable amount of hacking both summer and winter so I doubt his feet would stand up to it.

I will look into the forage plus supplement and the other suggestions.

Thank you all for your help. The vet wants me to give him an update tomorrow so I think I will have to ask him to speak to the farrier at the very least.

 

[Brightbay]

It's funny how we can have different perceptions of the same situation

Just arrived this morning to take my (barefoot 17hh) horse out for a hack (regular 4 mile circuit on tarmac). He was standing waiting for me on the hardcore at the field gate

Mind you, this time last year, he'd probably have been standing half way down the field on three legs looking miserable!

Try the supplement route, and you may well find the improvement in the feet, even with shoes, is such that you can consider periods without to give them a chance to change shape

 

[Clava]

Unfortunately my friend and I have just paid out £100 to have a sub base put on our gateway to prevent poaching and the stones would be too much for his feet plus my vet thought he was too big and too flat footed (didn't think he was at all) for him to cope with going barefoot. I also do a considerable amount of hacking both summer and winter so I doubt his feet would stand up to it.


.

Suggest a new vet if that is his / her belief and read more on the Rockley site about the terrain barefooted horses can cope with. It is very interesting and my TB manages well over our flinty paths. Hope you find an answer. Boots can help short term over the hardcore.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Ac14 - many Vets are overly cautious when it comes to taking horses BF. If you are willing to boot the horse when required, generally it's not as bad as they fear. Plus the horses that 'can't possibly go BF' are normally the ones who need a break from shoes the most.

Can you get some photos of your horse's hooves?

 

[Birker2020]

Can you get some photos of your horse's hooves?

Yes brilliant idea I will take some photos today and one of the other foot and show you all what his feet are like and then the people who rate barefoot can give me their opinion again if they wouldn't mind, as I thought after the first time when he got the bruised foot/abcess "why do we do this to our horses, knock nails into their feet in the way we do".

I would like to try the barefoot way but i guess I am too scared in a way in case it all goes horribly wrong, bits of his feet start breaking off and I can't revert back to shoes if I need to. Its a big big step to take.

I saw my previous horse - Billy, a 17hh WB on box rest for six weeks (with in hand walking twice a day) . Due to be shod and the farrier suggested taking his shoes off for six weeks to give him a break and I'd walked him up the drive on day one, hours later poked my head over his stable door and he was lying on the floor of his stable groaning as his feet hurt so much. The yard owner rang me the next day very concerned as she thought he had colic as he was doing the same again, totally prone in the stable lying there groaning, sweating, unwilling to put weight on his feet. I had to bute him until a farrier could come out and put his shoes on again, poor lad.

Its really scary.

 

[Brightbay]

I saw my previous horse - Billy, a 17hh WB on box rest for six weeks (with in hand walking twice a day) . Due to be shod and the farrier suggested taking his shoes off for six weeks to give him a break and I'd walked him up the drive on day one, hours later poked my head over his stable door and he was lying on the floor of his stable groaning as his feet hurt so much. The yard owner rang me the next day very concerned as she thought he had colic as he was doing the same again, totally prone in the stable lying there groaning, sweating, unwilling to put weight on his feet. I had to bute him until a farrier could come out and put his shoes on again, poor lad.

Its really scary.

Oh dear I'm not at all surprised you're worried about doing it - that must have been horribly stressful

Honestly, that's not at all the way it normally goes - what you describe sounds like laminitis, to be honest and quite extreme. Normally, even horses with less than perfect feet are fine without shoes in their stable and in their field, and the worst you see is that they want to walk slowly over hard surfaces to begin with. That's what boots and pads are for, and most people find horses who have had hoof issues often look very bright and bouncy when out with boots on - with nice thick pads, it's usually possible to ride as normal, and in fact, the pads gently stimulate the sole when doing a bit of gentle hacking and help to start the process of thickening them up.

I would probably go for the cautious approach though, and do the supplements for a few months, ask farrier if he or she can see any change for the better, and if so then think about a period without shoes but with boots for hacking to help get the feet as good as possible

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Re Billie, No way was that normal behaviour, when walking out it is perfectly clear if the feet are hurting, they are tender at the time, and horse will be reluctant to walk on a rough surface, I would have called a vet out to be honest.
Re doing a lot of work in summer and winter, that is ideal for barefoot , as long as you can build up the work and preferably do 15-20 mins on tarmac per day,, and feed the minerals etc, the horse will cope fine.
The problem is that you don't have a lot of control if horse is on grass, it is a lot easier when you are feeding hay.
Grass sugars are variable, during the day, and from day to day.

 

[Birker2020]

Re Billie, No way was that normal behaviour, when walking out it is perfectly clear if the feet are hurting, they are tender at the time, and horse will be reluctant to walk on a rough surface, I would have called a vet out to .

I rang the vet explained the symptoms and the fact he was shoeless and he said to give him bute until a farrier could come out. When I rang my farrier he said he couldn't come out for a week as he had a waiting list. I explained that the horse had to be buted as his feet hurt so much but he still said he couldn't fit me in. So I was really angry and changed to one that could come out. He put the shoes back on and the horse was fine when he was led out the next day, certainly not sound but not half as lame as he had been.

I''ve just rang my vet as he wanted me to call him today to give him an update and I have asked him again if Bails could possibly have lamnitis and he said deffo not given that there is no indication, no heat, no raised pulse, no laminitic stance. Just very thin walls on the outer of each front foot. He also agrees that I should keep my farrier as he knows the horse, his feet and balance, etc. It could just as easily happen to another farrier working with next to no hoof wall.

Start on the iodine and the sugar dressing tomorrow. yuk.

 

[dunthing]

My daughter had an 12 year old ex-racer who was shod when she had him. After a few months, she had his shoes taken off and he was barefoot ever after. He coped with walking over hardcore, on tarmac with pebbles included. Never sick or sorry. I don't believe in typical thoroughbred feet either. This gelding had horribly thin, flat feet at first but was put right by a good farrier and no shoes.