any Solicitors on here

Joined
7 October 2015
Messages
1,344
We have a situation here where a livery is leaving today and she signed the contract where it says a months notice on either party must be given. By law it would not hold up as it does not actually say a months livery rent must be paid (we will rectify this).

Never had an issue before as everyone has always paid a months notice or stayed for the period.

This person refuses to pay the months notice (already owes someone else and wont pay from the past) I cannot post reasons on here as walls have ears and can only do pm.
Suffice to say we held up our end of the bargain.

What we asking is for a good legal way of writing this.

My old one was just:


Notice of termination of livery is 1 month for either party where there is serious fall out between yard owner and client, the Yard owner reserves the right to terminate this agreement with immediate effect, and the livery owner must remove the horse from the yard.

This one will stay in but I want to add:

I thought along the lines of


Notice :


There is no restriction on when a livery owner leaves the yard after notice is given but if a livery leaves before their notice period is complete there is no refund on monies paid.
A full month’s livery rent must be paid to the yard (including any money already paid within their livery rent) if a livery gives no notice or just a few days’ notice of vacating the yard.

We all assume when this term is added in a contract that we say one months notice must be given, but by law to a non horsey judge that is only a verbal notice nothing about money.

This might help other y/o in their contract.

So lets have a better way of writing this.

Mince pies and mulled wine for the best one :)
 

popsdosh

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 November 2008
Messages
6,388
leaving the clause in about being able to ask a livery to leave immediately will leave you open to a judge deeming the contract unfair as the livery has no similar right. As they say you cannot have your cake and eat it!

Ultimately its impossible to enforce however you right the contract .
 

molly7886

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 June 2008
Messages
301
Location
surrey
Wouldn't it just be easier to have new liveries to pay a months rent as deposit in advance? Any livery yard I've been on I've had to pay 2 months up front then when you give notice you have a month paid in hand so if you choose to go early you just lose your deposit
 

be positive

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 July 2011
Messages
19,399
leaving the clause in about being able to ask a livery to leave immediately will leave you open to a judge deeming the contract unfair as the livery has no similar right. As they say you cannot have your cake and eat it!

Ultimately its impossible to enforce however you right the contract .
I agree it is extremely unfair that you retain the right to kick someone out with no notice but will expect a livery to pay a months livery or remain for a month if they have a serious issue with you, if there is a real breakdown between owner and YO then the sooner they leave the better for all involved even if it means you lose a few weeks income from the empty stable.

A month livery paid in advance is normal with a deposit to cover yourself, then there is no need to change the contract as you will already be holding the money so if they choose to leave early you can keep the deposit.
 

Ellietotz

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 June 2014
Messages
2,274
1. Terminations

1.1 Any notice made by the Yard User in connection to this agreement shall be made in writing either by letter or email by giving strictly One Month's paid notice. The said are not to be forced to stay for the period of this notice but are responsible for paying up to the day of termination.

1.2 If the relationship between the Yard Owner and Yard User is somewhat compromised beyond repair, the Yard Owner withholds the right to terminate the contract with immediate effect by giving notice in writing. The Yard User will not receive monies back if notice has been served under this clause. (I think this would be deemed unfair so could make it one weeks notice within reason depending on the circumstance.)

1.3 The Yard Owner may serve One Month's notice in writing to the Yard User no later than the livery rent due date for reasons being but not limited to regaining possession of their property. The Yard User must pay their portion of rent up until the day of termination regardless of which party issues the notice.

1.3.1 The Yard User is not obliged to stay for their notice period but the rent is still to be paid for said term.

1.4 Should the Yard User need to terminate their contract early due to urgent circumstances, they must request and get this agreed in writing with the Yard Owner. The Yard Owner withholds the right to either decline and request One Month's notice or negotiate the final payment and notice period within reason.


I think that covers everything? :)
 
Last edited:

LD&S

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 June 2012
Messages
992
Location
South East Kent
I rent a field so none of this applies to me but I was just pondering about YO asking livery to leave immediately.

Though there is employment protection for employees if there is gross misconduct you can be sacked and asked to go immediately, if the livery had done something really awful would the YO still be expected to give a months notice and still have the livery on the yard?
 

Rowreach

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 May 2007
Messages
14,766
Location
Northern Ireland
leaving the clause in about being able to ask a livery to leave immediately will leave you open to a judge deeming the contract unfair as the livery has no similar right. As they say you cannot have your cake and eat it!

Ultimately its impossible to enforce however you right the contract .
As a client i wouldn't agree to that anyway.
 

TheOldTrout

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 March 2015
Messages
3,963
Going back to your old contract, if you're keeping that first sentence it needs some more punctuation. I found it quite ambiguous, had to read it several times before understanding it.
Agree with what people would say about being able to ask a livery to leave immediately.
 

Wagtail

Horse servant
Joined
2 December 2010
Messages
14,816
Location
Lincs
I just say this:

A period of 4 weeks’ notice to terminate the livery should be given by either the livery yard or the client. However, should the client break yard rules then the yard manager reserves the right to ask for immediate termination of the contract.
 
Joined
7 October 2015
Messages
1,344
leaving the clause in about being able to ask a livery to leave immediately will leave you open to a judge deeming the contract unfair as the livery has no similar right. As they say you cannot have your cake and eat it!

Ultimately its impossible to enforce however you right the contract .
Sorry Popdosh it is serious problems - in our experience we only once had to ask a horse to leave immediately horse was here 4 days kicked me 4 times while rugging it, reared at me in stable, then when i led it out and about to unclip rope it reared up again came down on my shoulder then had and bolted off.

We all know there are many many livery owners and y/o that are shall we say unprofessional and upset the other liveries. I am not having another horse like that without a get out clause to have the option to remove a horse same if they turn round and either wont pay their bill after 2 months or shout at me -swear or worse. Its been in our contract since 1996 and only that one horse has ever been asked to move off the yard quickly
As it is if a livery wants to move out asap (never happened) as long as they pay a month notice period they can move out. This is my home too so I own this place My rules no one has ever queried that part ever.

As I said it says serious problem
ie:

not paying at all
hitting other horses
disrespecting the yard damaging property on purpose all that sort of thing you may feel unfair but since no one has ever had a problem with it as it is shown to people before they sign up. Liveries included today one has always left in a calm and friendly fashion

Anyway that part is not up for discussion I want other views of the payment in advance as our wording only says notice not payment and in court it would not stand up as legally enforceable without it written that payment of a months notice is included
 
Last edited:
Joined
7 October 2015
Messages
1,344
Wouldn't it just be easier to have new liveries to pay a months rent as deposit in advance? Any livery yard I've been on I've had to pay 2 months up front then when you give notice you have a month paid in hand so if you choose to go early you just lose your deposit
That might work never done that always been only one month
 
Joined
7 October 2015
Messages
1,344
I agree it is extremely unfair that you retain the right to kick someone out with no notice but will expect a livery to pay a months livery or remain for a month if they have a serious issue with you, if there is a real breakdown between owner and YO then the sooner they leave the better for all involved even if it means you lose a few weeks income from the empty stable.

A month livery paid in advance is normal with a deposit to cover yourself, then there is no need to change the contract as you will already be holding the money so if they choose to leave early you can keep the deposit.
That is all very well but if the notice comes at the end on their natural livery month then they have not paid in front have they?? Most liveries in the past always wait till the last month and give notice then see it out and leave so horse is here with the notice period others have gone two weeks into the notice within their month rent and thus only pay 2 weeks extra.
others have paid the month but left sooner which is fair enough. As for a livery clashing with me only one ever did and they still paid month notice but left earlier
 
Joined
7 October 2015
Messages
1,344
1. Terminations

1.1 Any notice made by the Yard User in connection to this agreement shall be made in writing either by letter or email by giving strictly One Month's paid notice. The said are not to be forced to stay for the period of this notice but are responsible for paying up to the day of termination.

1.2 If the relationship between the Yard Owner and Yard User is somewhat compromised beyond repair, the Yard Owner withholds the right to terminate the contract with immediate effect by giving notice in writing. The Yard User will not receive monies back if notice has been served under this clause. (I think this would be deemed unfair so could make it one weeks notice within reason depending on the circumstance.)

1.3 The Yard Owner may serve One Month's notice in writing to the Yard User no later than the livery rent due date for reasons being but not limited to regaining possession of their property. The Yard User must pay their portion of rent up until the day of termination regardless of which party issues the notice.

1.3.1 The Yard User is not obliged to stay for their notice period but the rent is still to be paid for said term.

1.4 Should the Yard User need to terminate their contract early due to urgent circumstances, they must request and get this agreed in writing with the Yard Owner. The Yard Owner withholds the right to either decline and request One Month's notice or negotiate the final payment and notice period within reason.


I think that covers everything? :)
Thank you :D just what we were after, will print this out and go through with hubby mince pies to you I think.
 

Rowreach

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 May 2007
Messages
14,766
Location
Northern Ireland
Sorry Popdosh it is serious problems - in our experience we only once had to ask a horse to leave immediately horse was here 4 days kicked me 4 times while rugging it, reared at me in stable, then when i led it out and about to unclip rope it reared up again came down on my shoulder then had and bolted off.

We all know there are many many livery owners and y/o that are shall we say unprofessional and upset the other liveries. I am not having another horse like that without a get out clause to have the option to remove a horse same if they turn round and either wont pay their bill after 2 months or shout at me -swear or worse. Its been in our contract since 1996 and only that one horse has ever been asked to move off the yard quickly
As it is if a livery wants to move out asap (never happened) as long as they pay a month notice period they can move out. This is my hose too so I own this place My rules no one has ever queried that part ever.
I was a YO for 25 years and I never had a clause like that in the contract. I have had the odd dispute with certain clients, but I would never kick a horse off the yard with no notice, with potentially no place for it to go. On the rare occasion I've actually asked someone to leave (with the required notice), they have gone fairly quickly anyway.
 
Joined
7 October 2015
Messages
1,344
I just say this:

A period of 4 weeks’ notice to terminate the livery should be given by either the livery yard or the client. However, should the client break yard rules then the yard manager reserves the right to ask for immediate termination of the contract.
Thank you Waggie you see where I am coming from.
 
Joined
7 October 2015
Messages
1,344
I was a YO for 25 years and I never had a clause like that in the contract. I have had the odd dispute with certain clients, but I would never kick a horse off the yard with no notice, with potentially no place for it to go. On the rare occasion I've actually asked someone to leave (with the required notice), they have gone fairly quickly anyway.
I am happy for you but that is not always the case is it, there are people out there who are from from ideal. Extreme circumstances rarely arise but if they do then we will deal with it.

As I said the first part is not the bit to change Thank you Ellie

food for thought thanx gals :)
 
Last edited:

Rowreach

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 May 2007
Messages
14,766
Location
Northern Ireland
I am happy for you but that is not always the case is it, there are people out there who are from from ideal. Extreme circumstances rarely arise but if they do then we will deal with it.

As I said the first part is not the bit to change Thank you Ellie

food for thought thanx gals :)
My point is that I wouldn't do it to a horse.
 
Joined
7 October 2015
Messages
1,344
My point is that I wouldn't do it to a horse.
As I said it is Extreme circumstances, it is VERY horsey round here with with a minimum of 12 livery yards within 15 minutes from here and that does not include field livery so there is no shortage of spaces.

Obviously if for some strange reason the owner does not find somewhere we will give them a little longer, but since our longest term livery owners are 12 years each and the next is 4 years then 2 years we do not have a big change over. This one went today only here 6 months was a short term due to her loosing her driving license and wanted part livery. (once we got it in lorry) went on long term loan which is why she left quickly as friend stepped in and wanted horses asap as she had no horse to ride since hers had retired and there was a space at the other yard.
 
Last edited:

pepsimaxrock

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 April 2006
Messages
395
Deposit is a great idea as it only gets people who can afford to pay (2 months prepayment effectively) and covers you for damages.
But are you seriously saying you want to kick someone off and also expect them to pay a months notice? Must be reading it wrong
 
Joined
7 October 2015
Messages
1,344
Deposit is a great idea as it only gets people who can afford to pay (2 months prepayment effectively) and covers you for damages.
But are you seriously saying you want to kick someone off and also expect them to pay a months notice? Must be reading it wrong
No if kicked off no paying months notice.
 

blitznbobs

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 June 2010
Messages
5,292
Location
Cheshire
1. Terminations

1.1 Any notice made by the Yard User in connection to this agreement shall be made in writing either by letter or email by giving strictly One Month's paid notice. The said are not to be forced to stay for the period of this notice but are responsible for paying up to the day of termination.

1.2 If the relationship between the Yard Owner and Yard User is somewhat compromised beyond repair, the Yard Owner withholds the right to terminate the contract with immediate effect by giving notice in writing. The Yard User will not receive monies back if notice has been served under this clause. (I think this would be deemed unfair so could make it one weeks notice within reason depending on the circumstance.)

1.3 The Yard Owner may serve One Month's notice in writing to the Yard User no later than the livery rent due date for reasons being but not limited to regaining possession of their property. The Yard User must pay their portion of rent up until the day of termination regardless of which party issues the notice.

1.3.1 The Yard User is not obliged to stay for their notice period but the rent is still to be paid for said term.

1.4 Should the Yard User need to terminate their contract early due to urgent circumstances, they must request and get this agreed in writing with the Yard Owner. The Yard Owner withholds the right to either decline and request One Month's notice or negotiate the final payment and notice period within reason.


I think that covers everything? :)
Don't use this using words such as 'somewhat ' and 'the term' are not clearly defined and as such are open to interpretation... The best legal contracts are not wordy they are clear English ... Equally contracts that are too one sided are difficult to uphold especially where the person they disadvantage is the customer.
 

Auslander

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 November 2010
Messages
11,845
Location
Berkshire
This is the clause in my contract related to your query. I think it's pretty clear.

2 The livery period will start on xxx and continue indefinitely. If the horse owner wishes to terminate the livery agreement, the horse owner will inform the proprietor in writing, giving no less than one full calendar month’s notice of their intention. The horse may be moved from the yard during this time but the horse owner must pay livery up to and including the date where the notice period ends, or agree that the proprietor retains the deposit.
 
Joined
7 October 2015
Messages
1,344
This is the clause in my contract related to your query. I think it's pretty clear.

2 The livery period will start on xxx and continue indefinitely. If the horse owner wishes to terminate the livery agreement, the horse owner will inform the proprietor in writing, giving no less than one full calendar month’s notice of their intention. The horse may be moved from the yard during this time but the horse owner must pay livery up to and including the date where the notice period ends, or agree that the proprietor retains the deposit.
Thank you Auslander I will show that to hubby :}
 

LadyGascoyne

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 May 2013
Messages
4,924
Location
Oxfordshire
I would read "one month's notice" to mean giving one month's notice of intention to end the agreement within the contract. If the contract covers providing a livery service for payment, I would not be happy with the interpretation of "notice" being separate to "payment".

I am not a solicitor, so cannot give legal advice.
 

Pinkvboots

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 August 2010
Messages
15,770
Location
Hertfordshire
I think getting a month up front is the way to cover yourself I have been to a few yards where they do this and have not minded doing it, I have always got it back at the end without any problem.
 

miss_c

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 October 2008
Messages
6,092
Location
Near Bristol
Our yard owner just gets everyone to pay a month's deposit before they move on, ie their final month is paid for should they leave or the money is returned. Not sure which way he works it as haven't left!
 

GirlFriday

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 November 2008
Messages
1,268
Immediate notice is clearly unreasonable and any half way sensible client wouldn't agree to it/lawyer would tear it to bits. Mentioning that it would be due to breaking the yard rules effectively makes the yard rules part of the contract so you need to makes sure those are written down and if they change all liveries would have to be notified in writing with reasonable notice AND you'd have to have a clause in the contract saying you had a right to vary rules with such notice.

If you try to protect yourself from every eventuality you quickly get tied in knots and there will always be *something* you can't stand on your yard but which you never thought anyone would do so didn't prohibit.

If horse is arguably dangerous you *might* get away with having immediate termination of livery services on H&S grounds with livery reverting to DIY rate immediately/if horse is dangerous with others it may have to have restricted turnout immediately or similar. Then you can give the normal months notice and, as long as you check it has four legs/feed & water daily etc you probably will be OK from the YO's responsibility for care of animal perspective - honestly though, you're running a business, getting an hour or so consultation with a lawyer is probably worth it.
 
Top