any worming experts out there - i have a strange pony !!

[whiteflower]

so the story goes :

brought pony 6 months ago. he is grazed with my 2 other boys. field poo picked daily.

he is turning 6 this month (becomes important in a bit !)

when i got him he was worm counted - medium strongyles count, wormed equitape to cover tapeworm too (this was beginning oct )

christmas wormed with equest for encycted red

march worm count - no eggs seen

so.............

you can imagine my horror to be mucking out this morning to find the most minging 6 inch long round worm in his poo - i nearly vomited !!!

how the hell has he got them !!!, nothing showed on last worm count and equest should have delt with round worms and lasts 13 weeks ?????????? also roundworms are mainly found in youngsters (yearlings etc) as horses build resistance to them as they age.

ive spoken to my worm count company who are also confused and have suggested i worm with eqvalan (sp) as different chemical but states there is no known resistance to the chemical in equest to treat roundworm in horses.

any pearls of wisdom ? any ideas on where i am going wrong or how i can improve things.

he was given the correct amount of wormer (weight tape plus 50kg to allow for inaccuracies !!)

 

[SVMel]

Are you positive that it's a roundworm? I only ask because we had this sort of senario once, turned out to be something that came out from under the stable mats and into the poo, not something that came from within!!!!!!

Was rather confusing at the time as it looked very similar!

 

[MissTyc]

Sounds suspiciously like pinworm to me!
V. common at this time of year and can be verrry hard to get rid of!

 

[ester]

the 12 weeks working period is only a period in which worm numbers will not reach a problematic number. It doesn't provide complete protection.

Worm counts have a number of inherent problems which can result in a false negative result so just because you got a <50epg count in march doesn't mean he didn't have any.

 

[charmeroo]

Sounds suspiciously like pinworm to me!
V. common at this time of year and can be verrry hard to get rid of!

I agree with this!! Pinworm and roundworm can be easily confused. Also - pinworm does not show in a wormcount, and yes - can be a nightmare to get rid of (as I'm finding at the moment!). Another problem is that pinworm is resistant to most wormers - vets etc are tearing their hair out apparently. Liphook Equine Hospital are recommending that you worm with Exodus (which is quite cheap and easily bought from Wormers Direct, amongst others). You need to disinfect areas in the stable where your horse might be rubbing his bum (is yours doing this??) and also was his bum with hibiscrub etc.

Good luck with whatever your pony has!

 

[whiteflower]

thanks for the ideas, im pretty certain its not pin worm as pin worm is 1 to 5 cm long on average, this was more like 6 inches ! :-o

im sure it came from the poo as it was entangled in it.

what i am concerned about if after horses are 18 months old they should become immune to roundworm, so the worming company states (and ive read!!) so why the hell has a 6 year old got it ??

he came from a stud and was in ok condition (not amazing but not by any means poor)

has anyone else had cases of roundworm in a older horse ?

 

[whiteflower]

Worm counts have a number of inherent problems which can result in a false negative result so just because you got a <50epg count in march doesn't mean he didn't have any.

ester, this interests me - can you tell me any more about why you might get a false negative ??

 

[galaxy]

you can get a false negative as you only test one small section of poo. Worms do not naturally spread themselves evenly throughout a poo so unless you take an entire one, and put it through a blender or something to truely mix it up, you could easily have a piece of poo tested that didn't have any worms or eggs in whereas other parts of the same poo could have had a lot in.

Bit rambling... does that make sense?

 

[AndiK]

thanks for the ideas, im pretty certain its not pin worm as pin worm is 1 to 5 cm long on average, this was more like 6 inches ! :-o

im sure it came from the poo as it was entangled in it.

what i am concerned about if after horses are 18 months old they should become immune to roundworm, so the worming company states (and ive read!!) so why the hell has a 6 year old got it ??

he came from a stud and was in ok condition (not amazing but not by any means poor)

has anyone else had cases of roundworm in a older horse ?

6 inches - could it be a tape worm? They are flat and white and have many segments in the body.... My dog passed one the other day actually.... and I have found them in my horse's poo once, like you I nearly vomited ( Like you I have not heard of round worm in an older horse but there are always exceptions to the rule..... This is going to sound strange but did you keep it? If you are really worried get in touch with your vet and if you did keep it they could have ID'd it....

The only advice I have really is to not use the same brand of wormers all of the time. It stops them getting resistant to the active ingredients used.

 

[galaxy]

oh and I know a horse that had roundworms come out 4 weeks after being wormed with Equest Pramox..... so it isn't 100% effective. We Panacur Guarded to get rid of them and haven't had a problem since.

 

[whiteflower]

definately not tapes as are rounded not flat and not segmented. they are identical to the pic on this web page :

http://www.safehorses.org/?p=4148

this website again says very rare in horses over 2 years of age

 

[ester]

mostly due to aggregation,

you take a very small sample of dropping for testing, unless you put a whole dropping in a blender which would be a really good idea! eggs are not evenly spread in droppings. you will also not have had a 0 count it will be <25 eggs per gramme, or <50epg depending on the method used in the lab. This is because although they thoroughly mix the sample in the lab they will then only take a sample of this and therefore the test has a limit of detection which means you cannot tell that there are no eggs there.

Also worms in the horses gut are not likely to shed eggs at random, it is likely that at certain times they shed more than others. an epg really does only provide a snapshot in time and they are most useful when used long term than relying on each individual result

Some individuals will always be more susceptible to acquiring burdens, they will be much reduced after 18 months of age, with age individuals will acquire both resistance and resiliance (they are more able to tolerate a worm burden without clinical signs).

I can only say what I would likely do if mine, I would worm count now, treat with ivermectin and worm count a month after to check it is <50 epg, assuming that it then is I would worm count this animal more frequently over the summer grazing period to assess the fluctuations in his burden.

I would also make sure that my worm count poo was as fresh as possible and mixed

I am in favour of worm counting but I don't think that the number of samples taken in a year suggested by some of the companies is sufficient, particularly when there is the possibility of 'false negatives' and when an animal is new to your herd.

This is an old post I did which you might find helpful to pick bits out of.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=245943&highlight=worm

 

[whiteflower]

thanks ester thats a great help. ive just read that other post and :-o is all ill say !!

im now panicing that he has resistant worms and is going to pass them onto my other 2 !!!

what i dont understand is why he hasnt developed his own resistance like all other horses over 2 do to round worm. its not like hes been malnutritioned or had a bad past ???

 

[galaxy]

thanks ester thats a great help. ive just read that other post and :-o is all ill say !!

im now panicing that he has resistant worms and is going to pass them onto my other 2 !!!

what i dont understand is why he hasnt developed his own resistance like all other horses over 2 do to round worm. its not like hes been malnutritioned or had a bad past ???

horse on our yard with roundworm was 16! I have never heard of horses over the age of 2 growing resistance to them....

Our vet told us to all Panacur Gaurd and then WC 4 weeks later to check all gone. WC came back clear and none have been detected since

 

[Tnavas]

Pin worms are tiny - round worms are not!

Interesting that people in UK say that pin worms are hard to get rid off. My Equine vet here in NZ told they rarely ever see pin worm nowadays as the mectin based wormers do such a good job on them.

My Clydie had them when I got her at 6months - she had been born and run on the hills in the bush until she was weaned. When I wormed her I was amazed at the worms that came out, everything but red worms. She was bomb drenched - weekly for three weeks with a wormer that covered everything (Parade - contains Ivomec & Praziquontal) since then nothing to find and she is now only wormed three times a year. Always with a wormer that will get all the worms in one hit.

Are all the ponies in the paddock wormed on the same day with the same product? Once worked for a top harness trainer who wormed his horses at the prescribed intervals but not all the horses on the same day - yearlings came in with the most horrendous worm burden.

 

[whiteflower]

Are all the ponies in the paddock wormed on the same day with the same product? Once worked for a top harness trainer who wormed his horses at the prescribed intervals but not all the horses on the same day - yearlings came in with the most horrendous worm burden.

yes all 3 in the paddock are mine and are wormed and worm counted at the same time with the same product.

 

[ester]

I really wouldn't worry too much yet! the possibility of him having brought in resistant worms I would say is slim!

There is a genetic element to a horses' resistance/resiliance to worms not just upbringing/nutrition etc and it is v normal in a horse population (herd) to have one or 2 animals with a higher burden than the others, they are often the youngest but not always, they are just more susceptible.

keep up the poo picking very diligent

I'd be interested to hear what your results are as you go along with him. I should point out I have a prior interest in parasitology, not done any for ages as went a different way with my research studies (smaller bugs!). Still like worms though

 

[whiteflower]

thanks ester, starting to get my knickers in a knot - im very ocd about my poo picking, im out there everyday come rain or shine so was a little disappointed to find the 'intruder' in his stable this morning.

will re test in 4 weeks after the eqvalan (sp) wormer and will drop you a pm with the result - its nice that someone else is also intersted in our wormy issue !!!

 

[Cuffey]

Whiteflower
Any chance you could ask the stud what wormers they were using?

Far too many people have been changing wormer name but not been changing chemical groups
Ivermectin and moxidectin are classed as the same chemical group.
Resistance has been building on a number of studs.

Instead of using an ivermectin based wormer I would go for Strongid P, Pyrantel Embonate

It may be you did not manage a representative sample for your March egg count--worrying though if we are to rely on these results.

 

[whiteflower]

i use the phrase 'stud' in very broad terms. he is well bred but by someone who was starting out for themselves with a handful of broodmares. when i asked about worming history on purchase they were very cagy and said they bought wormers in bulk periodically with a yard down the road and he was last wormed with something beginning with 'e' !!!!!!

great hey !!! i basically took that as horse hasnt been wormed and approached things accordingly when i brought him !!! it just doesnt seem to have worked.

are equest and eqvalan the same chemical group then as that is what worming company have told me to use ??

 

[ester]

same chemical group 'avermectins', afaik there is reported resistance to ivermectin, havent heard of any to moxidectin yet.

 

[whiteflower]

same chemical group 'avermectins', afaik there is reported resistance to ivermectin, havent heard of any to moxidectin yet.

oh im so confused !!!!!!! so if the equest has the moxidectin in it that should have worked right - as no known resistance ???

dont understand why they have told me to use equvalan then as company know i used equest at christmas - is strongid p a different chemical group that also does roundworms then ???

worming is a mine field - i try to learn all i can and do things right, ask the professionals etc but its just one big can of worms - in both senses !!!!

 

[Cuffey]

Strongid P is completely different chemical group which is why I suggested it

This link should help explain it
http://www.wormers-direct.co.uk/chemicalgroups.html

You will see ivermectin and moxidectin are in the same chemical group

 

[Ella19]

my pony had roundworm 6 months ago, she was 6yr at the time. wormed with equest did the job for her so not sure what to suggest to you.

 

[FairyLights]

Just a thought,did you use enough wormer for the horses weight. if you underworm ie not use enough wormer then it wont work properly.