anyone been watching chris cox horsemanship on H&C?

china

china

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hmmm. Im not really sure what to make of it yet. the second episode is starting to make abit more sense but in the first episode all i could see was a scared, confused and very sweaty horse...

He is working on a dressage horse that rears when ridden into a dressage test. i can understand his thinking about him wanting him to keep his back legs moving as then he would find it more difficult to rear but not sure i agree with the methods......
 
I must admit I don't like it. It may get results but the horses seem stressed and confused which isn't an approach I would appreciate being used with my girls. Not for me.
 
I've never seen him, but it may be interesting to keep watching..I know it can be hard but sometimes to get to the otherside of negative behaviour you have to go through a difficult period.

When I think about problems I like to liken it with super nanny....all of those kids that have behavioural problems go through a period where they struggle to understand and really kick up a fuss...but with consistancy and firm but fair treatment they do always get it in the end.

OMHO of course :-)
 
personaly I think he is fantastic one of the best well worth watching I would love to go on one of his clinics .....more of him and less of parelli please .....
 
Well im going chuck a spanner in the works because i quite like monty roberts techniques!!!! Not everyones cup of tea but alot of his methods worked for me.......
 
Watched in horror with mouth open. Awful man, awful old school domination / submission techniques. Yeah let's all frighten the life out if our horses until they tremble with fear and adrenaline and do as they are told. And next time you are at a dressage test employ all these techniques just before you go in the ring. Guaranteed top marks.

Looking forward to episode 3 !
 
i also dont like him,hes the kind of bloke that likes the sound of his own voice!!!i also think his training is through fear,i wouldnt let him within 100metres of my horses!!!
 
Ahhhhh... thanks At-The-Ponies and Rosie-Ellie ... and we like you too! :)

I'd say the thing is to get value out of watching anyone is to try and get past the things you don't like (because you're not going to be doing those anyway) and just try to work out if there is anything in there that could be useful and you might use.

For example, with Supernanny and The Dog Whisperer, there are things that are not going to be appropriate for people - but they are doing a good service if they get people to look at themselves first before they put all the blame on the child/dog.
 
well that's the consensus then .. we prefer spoilt bargy unresponsive confused and spooky horses that we pull into an outline kick and kick and then have to work hard with our legs
then pull and pull to slow down or maybe stop if your're lucky, wont load and dont see us as leader and giving direction and needing riding all of the time you are on them instead of being confident and happy and responsive ... well done you kids!!!! , its the english way badly behaved, confused horses, dogs, kids and adults drunk and fighting and thats not just
the men!!!!!
 
perfect11s - I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't train your horse or allow it to get away with bad manners, only that they don't like this particular person's techniques. That's a bizarre logical leap that you've made.

I don't like his methods either, they seem to be entirely based on punishment with no reward for positive behaviour. When the horse responds correctly, he briefly releases the pressure (usually as he talks to the crowd) then asks for more..and more. It may produce short-term results but I can't see it as a basis for a long-term trusting relationship and it's not a "fair" way for the horse.
 
j1ffy said:
perfect11s - I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't train your horse or allow it to get away with bad manners, only that they don't like this particular person's techniques. That's a bizarre logical leap that you've made.

I don't like his methods either, they seem to be entirely based on punishment with no reward for positive behaviour. When the horse responds correctly, he briefly releases the pressure (usually as he talks to the crowd) then asks for more..and more. It may produce short-term results but I can't see it as a basis for a long-term trusting relationship and it's not a "fair" way for the horse.
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Ive seen quite alot of his work and followed what he has been doing for quite a few years I would watch more of his other work both with the owners and their horses rather than judge him on just the spoilt and confused dressage horse ......
 
perfect11s said:
well that's the consensus then .. we prefer spoilt bargy unresponsive confused and spooky horses that we pull into an outline kick and kick and then have to work hard with our legs
then pull and pull to slow down or maybe stop if your're lucky, wont load and dont see us as leader and giving direction and needing riding all of the time you are on them instead of being confident and happy and responsive ... well done you kids!!!! , its the english way badly behaved, confused horses, dogs, kids and adults drunk and fighting and thats not just
the men!!!!!
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Most certainly not!

I insist on good manners with ours, they are responsive to soft aids and a pleasure to be around. We have trust with each other and as such when in new or potentially scary situations they take confidence when I ask something of them. None of this has been achieved through them being scared, stressed or confused. Simply consistent handling while rewarding the good behaviour offered or the effort made. It has taken time, sometimes a smack or a shout to halt bad behaviour instantly, then a pat and kind voice when better behaviour is offered.

They both compete regularly (BD and BS) are like lambs to handle and are a joy to ride. This is not because they have been brow beaten to my prefered way of acting. They act in this way because they have been taught what is right and wrong and being that horses are such honest, kind creatures at heart they are happy to offer correct behaviour and recive the praise for this.

I don't subscribe to a particular school of thought, and I don't like what I have seen from the programe mentioned by the op at the start of this thread. I found it hard to continue to watch the programme. I appreciate that we are best able to train our horses in a way that suits both of us by being open to learnings from areas new to us, but if I find it hard to watch something then it is very hard for me to remain open minded enough to learn from that approach.
 
i watch both this and Clinton Anderson and I cringe. The horses are simply shut down and too scared not to do as they are told. IMO, its showing off at the expense of the horse. Every time I watch it the horse is dripping in sweat and blowing like a train. Not what I would call horsemanship, just dominating.
 
Totally get Chris Cox - very accomplished horseman IMO. This 'Western' way of thinking is based on the practicality of getting a job done with a reliable, responsive horse. The horse he is working with has behavioural issues - if this horse went to someone who wasn't prepared to take firm leadership, he would be unruly and dangerous. I wouldn't advocate someone who gets 'nasty' with him either - that horse has a 'make me' attitude, and if the trainer started to lose his or her temper, I'm sure there would be a wreck!

Trainers as good as Chris Cox don't lose it, they don't shout and scream etc, and they back off as soon as the horse gives. It doesn't take long either, for them to figure it out. Just watch how quickly a hell raiser in the field backs down when confronted by a more dominant horse.

The other thing to remember is that if someone like Chris was given a well behaved horse to handle, or a youngster that was respectful, he wouldn't need to be so tough on them.

A previous poster likened unruly horses to badly behaved children, and I agree with this. They need consistent discipline, and to know exactly where the boundaries are.

I see people all the time with badly behaved kids, dogs and horses - they have no control at all; they love them to bits, but that isn't enough. I'm sorry if I sound a right old you know what, but it really makes me cross!
 
fluffalina said:
Trainers as good as Chris Cox don't lose it, they don't shout and scream etc, and they back off as soon as the horse gives. It doesn't take long either, for them to figure it out. Just watch how quickly a hell raiser in the field backs down when confronted by a more dominant horse.
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Would you say out-dominating a "dominant" horse is always justified or effective? I think it is a very risky approach and, in my experience, unnecessary. Sure, it will "work" with a lot of horses, but what happens when the trainer has to deal with a horse that decides to fight back? (I'm thinking primarily of aggressive stallions here.) Does the trainer let the horse "win" or does he/she escalate further? The alternative is to avoid conflict and its escalation whenever possible. One can (and should) still set and enforce boundaries, but that can (and should, imo) be done unaggressively and in ways that don't involve dominant body language. Both approaches are capable of producing compliant horses, but I prefer the quieter one and think the end result is better in terms of the quality of trust and willingness.
 
fburton said:
Would you say out-dominating a "dominant" horse is always justified or effective? I think it is a very risky approach and, in my experience, unnecessary. Sure, it will "work" with a lot of horses, but what happens when the trainer has to deal with a horse that decides to fight back? (I'm thinking primarily of aggressive stallions here.) Does the trainer let the horse "win" or does he/she escalate further? The alternative is to avoid conflict and its escalation whenever possible. One can (and should) still set and enforce boundaries, but that can (and should, imo) be done unaggressively and in ways that don't involve dominant body language. Both approaches are capable of producing compliant horses, but I prefer the quieter one and think the end result is better in terms of the quality of trust and willingness.
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I actually agree - we don't want to get aggressive. We do need to be assertive though, and whilst trainers like CC may look aggresive from a human perspective, from the horse's perspective I firmly believe that they accept the leadership pretty quickly, and soon relax as they know the boundaries.

Our own horses are well behaved, and we've never had to get tough with them as we've had them from weanlings. However, handling other people's ill disciplined and bargey horses is another story.....we employ the methods we're talking about, and very quickly change the behaviour - often we will see a complete change of demeanour, as the horse relaxes to our guidance, content to be with a handler they have confidence in.
 
A common misconception with a lot of training programs you see on TV is that the horses used are quite problematic in a lot of instances. If it was an easy one then the trainer like Chris Cox would never have been involved.

Fortunately, most horses are easily trained and bidable. Most trainers can train most horses fairly easily.If you think about it in most herds the majority of the horses are not in the top of the pecking order, they are the also rans. Not the lead mares or the more dominant horses. Care must be taken here not to confuse leadership with dominance, remember dominance is one tool lead horses use amongst many others.

Then because we are people and horses are horses, confusion arises when we anthropomorphise the horses reaction to the request and instruction from an insistant trainer. I have attended a recent clinic where a horse, which would be described as 'dominant or difficult' was being asked a fairly simple task involving placing its feet over a pole on the ground.

The horse became quite agitated, put in a few bucks and rears, and fairly quickly broke out into a sweat. It could be clearly seen that the horse was trying to work out what the trainer wanted, and was getting totally frustrated and the sweating was a result of this mental exertion rather than anything physical. As soon as the horse worked out what was being asked, after a few minutes, sweetness and light. Most NH trainers work on the ground, but this one did it from the saddle and just sat to all the initial jumping about and bucking.

The point is that everyone asks a lot from their horses in the modern environment, and horses are perfectly capable of working all this out, given the opportunity and a decent line in communication. Some may have more issues to deal with, but they are all individuals so that should be expected. When these horses have a big reaction, or blow up or sweat it is part of their reaction to learning. We should not get anthropomophic about it and think that these horses are dominated or brow beaten over it, they just don't think that way. Clear requests and the instant release of pressure, remember it's the release that teaches, builds the horses confidence and a horse that has confidence in itself and its handler is a horse that is content in its environment.
 
perfect11s said:
Ive seen quite alot of his work and followed what he has been doing for quite a few years I would watch more of his other work both with the owners and their horses rather than judge him on just the spoilt and confused dressage horse ......
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I haven't seen the episode with the dressage horses, I was commenting on his approach in general. There are much fairer ways of developing a "leadership" role with a horse that is based on mutual respect and trust. I don't see this in Chris' work.
 
j1ffy said:
I haven't seen the episode with the dressage horses, I was commenting on his approach in general. There are much fairer ways of developing a "leadership" role with a horse that is based on mutual respect and trust. I don't see this in Chris' work.
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Perhaps you need to look harder. What I mean is people like Chris can and do alter their approach to each and every horse on a second by second basis. You have at appreciate that a horse receives and processes information several thousand times faster than we can, and because they are more subtle than us in expressing themselves, someone at the top of their game like Chris Cox cannot have a formulaic approach when dealing with an individual horse, what we are seeing through the TV is not really a comprehensive way of judging someone like him. All NH training is in the moment and really skilled trainers have a different approach to every horse, though the sublty may elude the onlooker.
 
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