anyone else ever backed really nervous horse

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cellie

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I have rising 6 yr old that had trust issues but is lovely on ground now.He works from voice lunging and is now dream to handle(he does hate long reining, sensitive in mouth ).I have good instructor but even she has never met such reactive horse being backed.I can get on and off him no problems at all, today my instructor walked with me inhand but any pressure and he feels like he wants to bolt. We think he has had bad experience in past and he has also had operation for torn ligament so Ive done weeks of ground work.Ive had him year and he was sent away to be professionally backed last year.Pro found him problem too but we thought it was pain related.
Im probably going to have friend come to me as many times a week as she can ,she backs youngsters all the time and is very patient.
Im trying to cover all bases and wondering if there are any tips you can share.
Hes had dentist this week and tried him in different bit today and he was much less reactive.This horse will follow me round like puppy after little lunge work and is very affectionate.Im not sure if hes worried about handler but hes not ready to work alone far too nervous.
Sending him away is probably not good option ,I realise it will cost more for someone to travel but feel its better for him.
Hes been thoroughly investigated by vet and had xrays done on his back so don't feel its pain related problems.
If anyone can think of anything else id appreciate input.I know hes not going to be easy fix .:rolleyes:
I also have top trainer coming out wed who feels he can help .Just exploring all options :)
 
I broke one last year who was so scared you couldn't get near him. Bought him unhandled/unbroken. We built up the lunging.

When it came to getting on him - I used the mounting block in the yard and my mum fed him carrots or apples. We built this up to walking round the yard with the apples.

I then repeated this in the school. Again with apples.

This took me 6 months before I was confident to go round the school alone.

He is still a scaredy cat on the floor- but gradually improving. He is awesome to ride, though a bit funny about seeing people out hacking.
 
Ive been getting male friend to put him out in mornings as he was wary of men and hes really good with people now .Couldn't go past his head when I first had him he wouldn't let you touch his sides let alone pick up his tail. I just wonder if hes going to be same backing lots of repetition before he relaxes or if theres something we can add to programme to help him.
I f someone has crystal ball it would help ,hes lovely all round just last part in jigsaw .:D
 
If nervy don't progress until current stage is 100% some just take far longer than others... No hard or fast rules. If worried than consider someone like Jason Webb.. And spend 'nice' time with them more than normal i.e scratches / grooming / hand grazing nicer grass so not always putting pressure on :-)
 
There could be all sorts of explanations for his anxiety - including it being 'just him' - but I presume during his veterinary investigations he had a sustained bute test? It's not a definitive diagnostic by any stretch, but I think it's a useful tool, especially in an unbacked horse, where it's impossible to really feel what's going on.

There are horses that are just tricky, for reasons that are never clear/intrinsic to the horse. I will say a fair number of the horses I've met that ONLY have a problem with being mounted/ridden have later been found to have a medical issue.

In situations where this is not the case it is almost impossible to say 'do this and this and this' as, by definition, such horses require specialist attention and 'out of the box' thinking.

As to how the horse is long term. . .again, hard to predict. I know two very related horses who were both very difficult to start. One had had a few bad experiences, the other had not. The former, once backed, has proceeded in quite a straightforward way, although there are still a few issues with tack (almost certainly due to discomfort). The latter has remained very tricky, although it has been very successful competitively with a sympathetic and capable jockey.

On initial observation, you would have said the one with the 'bad' history was going to be a more difficult horse long term but that's not been borne out. Interestingly both are closely related to another talented but extremely anxious and tricky horse.
 
I did, it was a real struggle, never really got him backed and riding happily, until I discovered it was all down to magnesium deficiency. Duly corrected with MagOx and now if anything he is lazy :)
 
thanks for both replies
I have gone back step on several occasions to make sure hes 100%.Mounting is not a issue at all.Lunging was but after doing months of walking
hes much more relaxed.
His treatment was for ligament tear he passed vetting as far a vet concerned but part of process was nerve blocking and he also had xrays to make sure his spine was ok .Bute/danilon has only been used for pain relief purposes .Hes had rescan and Im backing him very slowly.
I think many of his problems relate to being worked /backed in pain and these are related to his reactions.
Slowly and many repetitions seem to be our only way .:rolleyes::D
 
JillA said:
I did, it was a real struggle, never really got him backed and riding happily, until I discovered it was all down to magnesium deficiency. Duly corrected with MagOx and now if anything he is lazy :)
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Not backed yet but mine was very nervous/spooky. I put her on magnesium and the edge has come off of her. She's still frisky, spooky, sharp but that tension has disappeared from her.
This is worth thinking about :D
 
fidley I started him on magnesium week ago just incase.Funny thing is hes not really spooky if Im handling or walking he will take confidence from me .The nerves are probably from asking for new things .
 
Not an answer as such but I'd recommend reading Mark Rashid's books if you haven't already. I dismissed him for years as I wasn't interested in this "natural horsemanship" marketing machine that's popular; I was gifted Buck's book and that led me to MR. A few of his case studies sound similar to your horse. I just found the books incredibly helpful to see things from the horse's point of view. It might just put a few more tools in your box ;)
 
TPO said:
Not an answer as such but I'd recommend reading Mark Rashid's books if you haven't already. I dismissed him for years as I wasn't interested in this "natural horsemanship" marketing machine that's popular; I was gifted Buck's book and that led me to MR. A few of his case studies sound similar to your horse. I just found the books incredibly helpful to see things from the horse's point of view. It might just put a few more tools in your box ;)
Click to expand...

Totally seconded - lots of very readable anecdotes which leave you with a lesson learned.
 
Ill take look thank you I read Kelly marks perfect partners (?) think its called and think natural horsemanship (not tricks) play big part in partnerships.There are ways of asking horses to bring out their best :D and Im very open minded.:)
 
My horse came in from the field as a 5 year old pretty much unhandled very strong worried young fella. Took 4 days to catch him, he wouldn't even come to a bucket of feed nothing! He had back teeth etc checked all perfectly fine, just as soon as u got above his back height (eg to mount) he panicked. I lunged from up hign, on a mounting block, groomed high up, before finally getting my frie d to leg me up and I laid very low to his neck...nothing! He was brill, had a look at my leg then back to my friend fortreats hhowever once the saddle went on he panicked, blindly took off chucking the lady coming to break him off him twice. Found two amazing ladies about 20 mins from me, they took him for as long as needed. I honestly thought I would get a call from them telling me to come back and collect him.

However they kept up working him, he got used to pigs dogs cows horse walker tarpaulins etc and hacked alone and in company. I went up every week and watched him being ridden. The first time I rodd him my friend videoed us, I watched it and my friend said 'thats amazing that is!' And I said 'it doesnt seem real' and I smiled the whole way round. Nearly cried too as he proved every single person wrong Including me!

Ive had him home a week and weve been hacking up the lanes, hes met sheep and lambs and he has been such a good boy.

Its worth so much to send them to be professionally brought on - I paid £300 for my horse and £ 900 ish for him to be broken, best money I ever spent!

Im in kent if you need a recommendation; the ladies I used also come out !

Good luck Nd dont give up!!
 
Lovely story:D ,the pro I sent him too told me he was too strong but I feel hes been overheld and Im working on light contact.Its heavy hand that's caused so many problems.Ill take things really slowly and like one of posters said don't move forward till 100%.
Ive done loads of mounting block work too just to get him used to someone up high.I had terrible bridle problems couldn't touch his ears but he drops his head now to have bridle off , still putting it on like headcollar but he accepted new bit well today after dentist had been.Noseband and reins etc are going over his head so improving all time.
Im not a quitter ;)
 
As yours doesn't have any physical issues and is good on the ground, maybe you need to think further outside the box? There was one in our yard who sounded similar. The yard ended up bringing in a man who specialised in backing racehorses. He seemed to use a lot of different methods and a softly softly approach and he did break through as nothing else could seem to work. They took their time and it was clear he has been very very badly started. Once they got over the initial hurdle he took to everything else really easily, was very chilled and is now out doing BE!
 
Luci07 Funny you should mention this I have trainer coming to me wed who has backed racers also worked for top sj (not going to name drop).I realise he cant come to me everyday so Ive friend who trains sympathetically booked to try and get some consistent work .Sending him away will upset him ,I hope similar trainer will help me too.:)
 
So the pro who you sent him to was riding him but it didn't go well? Sorry, I misunderstood - I thought the problem, such as it is, was getting on him in the first place.

It sounds like the fellow you've got coming out will be in the best position to advise you how to proceed, as he'll be able to sit on the horse and feel what is going on.

It's quite easy for a horse to get a real scare without it being all that obvious to the people involved. I sat on a horse recently who was genuinely terrified to trot, or even really let go in walk. Tbf, it had started related to a pain issue but seemed to have become what amounted to a phobia. In cases like that it is a case of taking small steps, making sure the horse is relaxed at each point, although you still have to bite the bullet eventually and do the thing that frightens the horse. Someone very experienced and confident to do that the first couple of times can get the horse over the hump, as it were.

I would say, don't do too much experimenting based on other people's experiences - as mentioned, quirky horses, almost be definition, will not all be alike. I've had horses that just could not 'do' one aspect of 'by the book' work and, so long as it wasn't essential, were best let off that one thing. Others just needed lots of time and repetition of every single, tiny step.

I would also recommend Mark Rashid's books, for interesting reading if nothing else. Ditto some of the 'bibles' that have given rise to the natural horsemanship industry, such as Tom Dorrance's 'True Unity' and the Australian Tom Roberts' 'Horse Control' books. Those fellows dealt with a lot of un/badly handled horses of a type many people never see now and had to take a very practical approach to getting the job done. Not all of their ideas and practices are transferable but their approach and 'fluid systems' are sometimes more helpful in dealing with unusual horses than the more codified systems of putting tab A into slot B.

There are also lots of good modern books on dealing with fearful/difficult horses - 'The Fearless Horse' by the Days is great, Richard Maxwell and Michael Peace also worth a look. None of these books will give you any magical solutions but they'll all provide tools for the box and reassurance that other people deal with very anxious horses and come out the other side.
 
Tarrsteps mounting no problem he absolutely trusts me 100% and relaxed too. I brought him home early from pro as he was lame when I went to watch him he said he needed shoes :(poor boy had coffin joint inflammation and also tore susp ligament at some stage. Hes had long time off plus all best treatment so few more weeks will make no difference if I have nice horse at end of it.
I agree with what you say with training long reining is real issue for him although he has had good moments its not worth set back. Pain and phobia are probably good description of his history and he sounds similar to problematic horse you had.
Nature wise I couldn't ask for better horse so hoping we can get through this sticky patch.My regular instructor normally rides horses she backs but she said our trust is so strong that getting him going in walk with me onboard is helping him.This new trainer is happy to ride problem horses don't know how he will react with male heavier rider but Ill take it slowly.
I read Maxwell books when I had my 4yr old ex racer it was very helpful then.Ill look out for the fearless horse. He ll follow me over tarpaulin and walks behind me with huge builders sacks and really curious with my dog its ridden that's issue. He must have had awful experience .:(
 
I don't like that the "pro" you sent him too said he was very strong. Is this a big moving horse? I do find that sometimes people can't really deal with big movers very well. I just find that description odd for a just going baby. But if this horse kept being brought back and shut down every time he was just moving forward that does create issues.

I'm not saying it isn't pain related but if we always think like that we may not get to the actual root of the problem. Is riding always taking place in an arena? Maybe see what he's like being led around outside of the arena, say barn area for instance. But at the same time you have someone coming that could be a big help. Horses need confidence in moving forward. If they don't have that it creates huge issues.

Terri
 
When backing my super her nervy boy I had to miss bits out of the accepted stages. Jumping up and down next to him put him into orbit. The more I did it the worse he got even with bribery so I stopped. As for long lining/reining, the minute the handler let him go he would reach warp speed and I just couldn't hold him. He would lunge happily but the second the additional rein was added he would go. This was after months of desensitising. In the end I stopped trying as he started to become distressed to have a roller on in anticipation. He is one of those horses whose reaction is panic and run so I've spent a huge amount of time teaching him how to react to new experiences (mainly stand still and gawp as I prefer that to whip round and run). Ive also taught him to whoa off the voice for which he gets a food treat. It so wasn't what I wanted to do but it worked in breaking the cycle where he would go, now he whoas and gets a polo, a few seconds of calm and then proceed. He doesn't seem to view it as a reward for hooking off because I make a huge FAFF of when he is stood taking ages to get it out of my pocket so its more a reward for standing. He was my first breaker, I've been led by what works for him and although he is still a tricky boy (slow maturing warmblood mixed with super sharp welsh, not a good idea) he had a fab jumping lesson yesterday and I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
Basically now I've rambled, sometimes its best to just go with your gut, if something really doesn't work then make a sensible decision of stop. Otherwise my horse would still be on long lines!
 
My son backed a very nervy horse last year. He would go into orbit if you patted him or touched him anywhere but his shoulder. TBH tho it was just inexperience and the horse is incredibly reactive and sensitive. My son took ages, patting him all over, doing lots of ground work and work in hand, we had no facilities for lunging or long reining, so we did lots of work & backed him leading from another horse which worked really well.
We had to take a deliberate policy to not be too quiet and softly softly with horse and so would march up to him and pat him robustly on the neck, and still do.
Horse is now saint tbh, loves his work, and very calm and placid, still wildly overreactive and sensitive when ridden, but that's just him.
 
Please read Rebels post. Sometimes desensitising can backfire. And it's so dependant on an individual situation. I really never spend any time on the desensitising to everything which seems to be in vogue. And yet I have very little issues with reactive and spooky horses.

I had a long drawn out post but I can't get my thoughts organised correctly. It's hard to describe something that is second nature but a Rebels has typed out a very good post so no need for me to chime in.

Terri
 
Rebel your horse is my boys clone.Like you Ive backed off long reining whats point stressing him when he responds to my voice on lunge and is nearly there when Im onboard.Hes not spooky in particular but wants to run away from things he doesn't understand everything is just taking longer in each stage. We have gallop track round yard that I walk in hand and once hes safe will be able to walk him around.Once trainers/handlers come out im happy to take him out of school for change,hes walked inhand round roads and is happy in traffic.
Terri yes hes big mover hes id x warmblood he was 15 2 when I bought him and is 16 1 plus now.Ive always felt he has been overheld its shame as he has natural outline and just drops into it.Ive changed bit to crescent shape loose ring from French link and that's helped too.
I can walk him anywhere, I have paddock I use that is away from others in summer and he will happily leave other horses and walk on verge of road to this paddock.The trainer who is coming out is happy to let him work through his issues if it means having confident rider onboard to work things out Im happy to work with this method. I realise we need to think outside of the box with him and all the input has helped.:)
 
Sorry, I'm still a bit confused. . .if he's not been ridden away, how has he been 'over held'? I'll agree that's a big problem for big moving, athletic, forward going horses and it can lead to all sorts of problems, some of which don't seem to big a deal initially but cause a lot of trouble later.

What happens if let him trot on a bit? (Or what happened when the aforementioned pro did?)

Horses like you describe can often get into trouble with long reining as their anxiety makes them rush, then they run into an unyielding hand and panic. It's not essential a horse learns to long rein. :)

Have you tried different saddles? If a horse is tight in the back it will make ANY saddle uncomfortable, but sometimes a change can give you enough of an advantage to make changes in the way of going.

Otherwise, as you say, he improves with quiet, thoughtful repetition. See how you get on with the fellow you've booked but it may be the slow and steady approach is just going to have to be the way forward. I've had some that were awful initially, and took enormous patience, just suddenly 'get it' one day and never look back.
 
tarr steps Over held with pro ,he told me he was strong (this was june last year),I managed to contact place he was bred and they said he ran, they backed him as 3 yr old.I originally felt that he ran as he had pain and its remembered way of going.If only they could talk:(
Time will tell ,see how it goes Wednesday, a different trainer and approach might be all he needs .
 
Ah, okay, that makes a bit more sense. So he's been ridden away at least twice and had it go wrong.

The problem is you never have a second chance to make a first impression. Whatever the reason he reacted the way he did initially, it's now been his formative experience. The unfortunate problem with pain responses, especially in very green horses, is they don't necessarily go away just because you remove the source of the discomfort. After all, we do a lot of training by making horses uncomfortable! And because it takes a great deal more time and care to re train (which I was trying to ascertain with my questions) you have to plan accordingly. It's quite possible he isn't intrinsically anxious, it's a learned response. This is quite different from a horse that's naturally fearful. In a good way, usually.
 
Interestingly, I have one right now that sounds very similar. I'll probably curse myself by saying this but the difference in just a couple of rides, with the horse starting to see he doesn't need to worry so much, has been phenomenal. I have no illusions that we won't have problems - there are many 'firsts' that need to be ticked off - and there are changes in tack and other management that I think will benefit him. But in these sorts of situations the most important bit is changing the horse's mind and showing him there's another way to be. This is something that happens in minutes, or at least it starts to. But it can take ages to set up the exact right situation where the switch can flip.
 
This is all really helpful thanks.
Ive had awkard horses before but because they were already backed I found that with patience and trust they came really good.Ive had a horse that didn't hack and was told not to take her on roads she ended up one of best horses ever in traffic.Im finding this bit trickier, one Im older and don't want to fall off and lets face it you don't bounce so well,two this is actually first horse Ive backed and it wasn't intentional purchase he was obviously cheap because of his problems.Its probably good job I am older Im more patient .I wouldn't have bought him knowing the problems but obviously now hes my responsibility and actually hes wonderful horse.I thought I was buying lightly backed horse and my trainer as happy to help me we didn't realise he had injury and sending him away made things worse.
My session with regular trainer this week actually went fairly well.It was first time I had proper contact and although he was panicky to point of him feeling like he wanted to go/run gentle coaxing and positive session left me feeling much happier. Previously just picking up reins left me feeling like we should back off. He worked through it and had some moments of complete relaxation .He was same with mounting I did two plus weeks of just getting on rewarding and getting off , now he has no reaction at all .It was same with leading him 2 weeks plus of just walking sometimes only one minute then building up until now when I had contact. He was very tense with all of above ,its going to be slow process. Hes always chewing listening and trying its the flight reflex that's so strong in him.
This part is crucial and my regular trainer cant work with me everyday hence bringing someone new to the equation.I don't feel Im right person to start doing faster work he needs pro. its essential there are no more mistakes .I feel I let him down sending him away last time:( so want some input into what happens this time round.:(
Where are you based ?
 
Would your trainer consider riding him? I went through a stage of being determined to ride mine every day. That's what all the books say, right? But for mine, 2 days work and 3 days off was required. That's how much time he needed to process the information. As for faster work, mine would trot happily and was also happy to trot on a hack with a sensible horse. Easy I thought, just tip him into canter on a grassy stretch, nice and stress free. Oh no, the second he hit a 3 beat it became flat out as he freaked at his own power (something that will occur regularly, good transition then panic). Canter was and still is his bug bear. He has good enough paces to come on as a junior dressage horse and enough jump to go intermediate eventing at least (he is 15.1) but can I get the *#* to keep a decent canter?!! The penny had just dropped last summer then he had 6 months off with a virus. We have just got back on track with it and I've established the bit between trot and gallop. Luckily after all that work its a very good natural canter but I have been very fast in a lot of circles! Don't rush yourself. Why does he have to move on yet? If he is bored then yes but mine learnt such a lot about acceptance of aids doing 20,000 turns on the forehand and a trillion trotting poles, like we don't have to freak if I move my leg, touching a pole is not a fatal mistake etc. Things a 'pro' would not have time to do with him. I bought him at 3 to sell at 4. He is 6 now, far more talented than I ever expected otherwise he probably would have been sent to Findus by now. I broke my second horse 10 times faster, he was hacking on day 3 in order to learn to move his legs with a human on board, cantered on day 4 and was nearish an outline day 6 with loose reins.
Who has made the most progress with knowing the horse? If its you then trust yourself. I now believe the right time to ask for the canter etc presents itself rather than deciding today we will canter/ jumps wtc
 
I backed a wild little welshie at the start of 2012, completely unhandleable and pretty much just ran wild on the land. After catching her it took forever to gain her trust, but once I clicked with her it was like she was always just looking for a friend. 3 months later she was doing walk, trot, canter and popping jumps under saddle.

Not advice as such, but just to say that it really can be done. First pony I'd backed on my own and I chose the one nobody could get within 20 feet of!
 
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