anyone else ever had problems with colic after worming ? (equest pramox)

[barnaby bear]

hi....new to the forums and to be honest i just wanted to see if anyone else has ever had any problems with colic after worming their horse?

had to have my beloved arab oliver put to sleep yesterday - after owning him for over 20 years. i am beyond devastated as you can imagine .

terrible colic and wasnt responding to hours of treatment from a vet.

the thing that is grating on my heart is that i wormed him exactly 48 hrs before the onset of colic with equest pramox wormer.

i dont do him vey often (maybe once a year) as he has a field on his own with horses next door and i daily collect the droppings. so he's not a horse that is at massive risk from worms - or worm burden



he's never had colic in his life and i worm him and suddenly within 48 hrs he dies from it .



anyone else ever had any problems with colic after worming ?

thanks guys

 

[maggiesmum]

((((hugs)))) for you..
You have my deepest sympathy as I cam very close to losing my gelding a few weeks ago from impactive colic 12 hours after being wormed with Noromectin, worming usually brings on a few days of footyness so I always worm count first to be sure I really need to do it but I never expected this!

He was wormed in the evening and presented with colic symptoms the following morning, we were pretty sure it was all over but he improved slightly after 24 hours at which point they wanted to give him a chance, he was pumped with water 2 or 3 times a day for 6 days. He pulled through but by the skin of his teeth.

He's never shown any signs of colic in the 6 years i've owned him till now either.

A few more ((((Hugs)))).. because I think you need them. x

 

[canteron]

I too just wanted to say I am really sorry and how completely devastating. My heart really goes out to you.

I used this wormer for the first time a couple of weeks ago and everything was OK, but I too am quite wary of wormers, worm counting and using them only if necessary. I am interested in other replies as my oldie has just been diagnosed with Cushings and I have been told he will be more susceptible to worms. I have never quite understood how any drug can kill the worms but be harmless to the horse?

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I am so sorry, you must be devastated.

Only time i've ever had a problem with a wormer was after giving an 18month filly Equest Paramox. She had colic and awful diarrhoea for several days after. She has always had low worm counts and grazing was poo picked daily.

I've had her from weaning and she's now 5yrs and never had a days illness before or since, except for the one time she had Equest Paramox.

 

[brightmount]

My horse has had gas colic after Equimax and Equest (green), but so far has been OK with Pramox, which suggests its more to do with her worm burden or the state of her gut at the time of worming than the product itself.

My vet came up with the idea of giving bute from the day before worming to a few days afterwards to prevent discomfort, which seems to work. Obviously if she had a high worm burden and was at risk of impaction, that would be a different matter, but I worm count her regularly to keep an eye on that.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

Pramox is quite a powerful product - sort of all singing all dancing. Which is OK for most horses, but personally I think it is lower risk to use wormers that target the specific worms that are present, not everything, which means you can use a product which is specific to that and not everything all at once.

So I use worm counts and then worm once a year for encysted redworms which dont show on the worm counts, and also blood test for tapeworm (if positive, worm for tapeworm and test again next year, if negative my vet says they are low risk and can probably only test every other year if you want).

Also make sure you dont flu/tet vac and worm close together, I nearly lost my chap to a recurring virus he came down with shortly after this combo and now he cant have the flu vacc at all, just has tet. It took him 4 years to get over it.

Im so so sorry for your loss, it wasnt anything you did wrong :-(((

 

[contestdancer]

I'm so sorry for your sad loss.

Yes we have had two horse colic using Pramox. One colicked virtually immediately and the other overnight. We no longer use this wormer.

 

[barnaby bear]

thank you very much everyone for your replies, kind words and hugs .

i am utterly beside myself , and it is really hard to not blame myself ....but if it is the wormer that caused it then i wonder whether it should carry a clearer warning on it that these things can occur in older or maybe younger horses?

i am trying to find out the contact details of the manufacturers of the wormer but i've thrown the box and leaflet away, so if anyone does have the contact details of the manufacturer that would be greatly appreciated, so i can at least contact them with the details of what has happened
i know it wont bring my oliver back but i would hate for others to go through what i have.

the real irony is i consulted my vet before worming my horse with it and asked if my horse would be safe taking it and it was the wormer she recommended for him .

of course there is always possibility that the loss of my horse and the wormer causing colic were unrelated but it makes you think doesnt it ....in a horse that has never presented with colic in the 20-21 years that i have owned him

thank you once again folks for your kind and helpful posts xxx

p.s - actually i have just found out it is manufactured by Pfizer Animal Health....so i will contact them - dont suppose they will reply - but at least i have let them know my situation .

thanks

 

[Dancing Queen]

I am so sorry to hear of your sad loss.

I personally worm count to ensure that i do have to worm them, then i dont give them the full recommended dose - I tend to give them less than it says.

I would certainly complain to Pfizer, It does seem a huge coincidence.

Once again I am so sorry to hear about Oliver.

Run free Big man xxx

 

[dizzydoo]

sorry for your loss how sad I lost my mare in may still trying to get over it bug hugs ... my little loan pony I have just taken on for the kids has never been wormer regular I was wondering what wormer to give her I'm scared coz she has suffered with colic and is old the last thing I want to do is give her colic if any one has some advice of what I should do please tell me I was going to buy equest pramox don't think I will
now after the sad loss of op horse thanks

 

[dizzydoo]

sorry was meant to say big hugs and the other word wormer these iPhones lol

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Incidentally, I remember this issue being raised on another forum about 3 or so years ago with accounts of horses experiencing colic after having this wormer. Its difficult to know whether the colic is coincidence or a direct result of the product, but certainly worth bearing in mind with vunerable horses.

 

[katherine1975]

I had a horse that had a reaction to equest pramox, it was almost instant she started sweating and her respiratory rate went really high, this resolved after about two hours. I called the company and spoke to someone in Ireland and they said they had never had any problems before. I tried her once more on it a year later and the same thing happened as the company said it may have been a coincidence, but the same thing happened. I never used that product on her again and didn't have any further problems.

I am so sorry to hear about your horse - hugs xx

 

[barnaby bear]

sorry for your loss how sad I lost my mare in may still trying to get over it bug hugs ... my little loan pony I have just taken on for the kids has never been wormer regular I was wondering what wormer to give her I'm scared coz she has suffered with colic and is old the last thing I want to do is give her colic if any one has some advice of what I should do please tell me I was going to buy equest pramox don't think I will
now after the sad loss of op horse thanks

to be honest i would have a worm count done on her before i gave her anything ....

and take it from there....maybe asking a vets advice too .

 

[barnaby bear]

a copy of the email i recieved from the wormer manufacturers below :-


Thank you for your email regarding the Suspected Adverse Reaction (SAR) to Equest Pramox ™. Firstly may I offer you my condolences on the loss of your horse. Pfizer take all cases of SARs very seriously and as part of our phamacovigilance responsibilities I will report the case to the Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD). I would be most grateful it you would forward the details of your vet so that I may contact them in order to make a full and accurate report.

I have looked back on the Periodic Safety Update Report (PSUR) for Equest Pramox, there have been cases where horses have developed colic post treatment due to burden of worm, which I appreciate is something you are aware can occur. There have been no deaths in the UK that have been attributed to the use of the product.

Again my I offer you my sincere condolences.

Kind regards



i know my horse didnt have a big worm burden though ....thats the thing.an forgive me for being scepticle but one cant help but wonder if they wriggle out of things so you dont make a claim against them for the loss of your horse ? are they really telling the truth ?
who knows?


thanks you once again for all your replies and experiences shared. it is so nice that complete strangers are sending me hugs and thoughts and stuff. bless you guys xx

 

[Dancing Queen]

Did you have a PM done on Oliver - is there time to have a PM? I wonder if the vet could see anything? I would contact a solicitor - see where you stand.

Big hugs for you loss.

 

[hairycob]

Worm counts won't detect tapeworm or encysted redworm burdens so it could be that they were the problem as Pramox should kill both of those.

 

[Salcey]

Our mare coliced 48hours after worming with pramox and endnd up at Oakham. Thankfully ok now, was wormed and counted up to date previously.

Sorry for your loss x

 

[barnaby bear]

Did you have a PM done on Oliver - is there time to have a PM? I wonder if the vet could see anything? I would contact a solicitor - see where you stand.

Big hugs for you loss.

i didnt actually ....i couldnt stand anymore mauling of him....you know what i mean. he's been buried now ..... so i will just let him rest bless him.

i guess when i posted this topic i was praying that i would get no responses so i couldnt blame myself for killing him with the wormer.

i'm shocked really that there have been quite a few cases of colic with this wormer.really makes you wonder doesnt it....maybe wormers do more harm than good ???

i will have another chat with the vet over the next couple of days....though at the time when i asked she said it could have been any number of different things that caused the colic

i guess in a way its futile following lines of enquiry cause it wont bring him back ....but on the other hand if this product is more dangerous than good its important to let the manufacturers know whats happened.

 

[idx]

i guess when i posted this topic i was praying that i would get no responses so i couldnt blame myself for killing him with the wormer.

Please, please, please dont blame yourself. I lost a horse to colic and I know that its hard not to feel responsible. But you are not responsible.

Colic can be very random, every horse on a yard could have been wormed with that wormer with none of them colicking. You just cannot legislate for colic. All we can ever do is try to do our best - give them loving homes, ensure they are fed and watered and have appropriate medical care. You did all this and your horse was very luck to have you as mum.

You have done the right thing in informing the wormer company so that if there is a pattern/issue with the wormer it is highlighted.

Worming is not without risk however not worming also brings potential for colic.

Give yourself time to grieve but take heart from all the love you gave your horse.

Been where you are now and it is terrible so big hugs to you.

 

[Black_Horse_White]

So sorry for your loss. My horse came down with colic within an hour of being wormed with Equest, vet said it was not the cause but I'm not so sure.

 

[Dancing Queen]

i didnt actually ....i couldnt stand anymore mauling of him....you know what i mean. he's been buried now ..... so i will just let him rest bless him.


i guess in a way its futile following lines of enquiry cause it wont bring him back ....but on the other hand if this product is more dangerous than good its important to let the manufacturers know whats happened.

I understand how you feel.
It wont bring him back, but if it could save another life, then perhaps Olivers passing wasnt so much in vain.

I planted a rose tree (standard rose) when i sadly lost my babies - It helped me and helps me to this day xx

 

[alsiola]

OP: Condolences for your loss. I think it is unlikely that worming was the cause of your horse's colic. There are reports of impactions occuring after worming, but these are extremely unlikely to be fatal. Colitis can also occur, but usually presents with diarrhoea as the primary sign, not colic.

...i dont give them the full recommended dose - I tend to give them less than it says.

Please please please give the recommended dose - underdosing will not only be ineffective for your horse, but also contributes to resistance problems for every other horse.

 

[canteron]

It might be worth talking to the big worm count companies like Westgate Labs. They have always been very friendly and given me good advice where needed, but more that that they are in a position to see the bigger picture and may be able to learn from your horses death to refine their advice and help other horses in future?

If you go to their Facebook page it gives an idea of how they are genuinely interested in worming and it consequences.

 

[smiffyimp]

So sorry for your loss. Big hugs. When pramox first came out our yard used it, 3 went down with colic, one of them my old Arab. Thankfully all was well, but one pony struggled for 24hours. Ive never used the stuff since. I dont use Equest either. I egg count year round, equitape spring and autumn and 5 day course too. Touch wood, no probs. I think (and this is MY opinion) that the drugs are getting too strong for horses to deal with. Wormers these days last 10-12 weeks and although this will involve a release mechanism of the drug, I think the strength is over powering the horses system. I never remember colic with good old strongrid all those years ago.

 

[soulfull]

a good few years ago when equest was introduced first in the US there were lots of problems colic, and even nervous system problems. A friend of mine worked at a vets over there and warned me about it

However after it being over here a few years without too many problems I have used normal equest a few times without problems. I have just bought a pramox and was about to buy 3 more for other horses but I am not sure with those how well they have been wormed in the past so am reluctant to buy it now

I notice their reply to you say 'no reported deaths in the UK' hmm what about the US ??

 

[barnaby bear]

a good few years ago when equest was introduced first in the US there were lots of problems colic, and even nervous system problems. A friend of mine worked at a vets over there and warned me about it

However after it being over here a few years without too many problems I have used normal equest a few times without problems. I have just bought a pramox and was about to buy 3 more for other horses but I am not sure with those how well they have been wormed in the past so am reluctant to buy it now

I notice their reply to you say 'no reported deaths in the UK' hmm what about the US ??

good point !
course they will say ''no reports of death as a result of using their wormers'' because the cause of death will always be written down as colic wont it.

and then they will get out of that by saying there could be 101 reasons for colic in horses....so they will wriggle out of any blame that way

ever likely they say no horse ever died as a result of using their wormer.

they quite possibly did....but they're just getting out of it.

i have a feeling that i will carry this with me for the rest of my life .....

ironically i managed to kill the thing i love more than anything else in the whole world ...i feel like taking the wormer myself and seeing what it can do for me ....but i know i cant do that to my family.

thanks again for your replies and experiences shared folks .....i will re read over everything and take your advise on some things .

if i find out anything else of any use to anyone i will let you know

thanks again folks

 

[pines of rome]

I feel so terribly sorry for you what an awful thing to happen, we are told to use these wormers but they often make our horses ill, elderly horses seem the most prone.
I spoke to my homeopathic vet about this and he says chemical wormers are not good for horses systems, so i am currently using herbal ones with worm counts and daily poo picking.
Try not to blame yourself, you were only trying to do the right thing, having lost two horses myself i know how you are feeling. Hugs xx

 

[Mitchyden]

Sorry for your loss but don't blame yourself you were only doing what you had to do.

Years ago, I had a horse that got colic if given a double dose of Strongid-P. He was fine with one syringe but two gave him colic. There was no choice at the time if you wanted to worm for tapeworm so I was prepared for it and had the vet on standby! I always wondered if I should take the risk and not worm him but the vet said worming was a necessary evil!

I always do worm counts on my current horses and they always come back with "no eggs present" except for one horse. She is kept in the same field which is poo picked daily and is fed the same feed but she always comes back with a medium worm count. Obviously I have to then worm her which in turn makes her go footy (she's barefoot). Again, I have to worm her I have no other option. (I would add that I worm all my horses for tapeworm and encysted worms every year I just worm count for the other times).

The problem is with Equest is that it is a very powerful wormer and I've known many horses that have issues with it.

 

[Dancing Queen]

OP: Condolences for your loss. I think it is unlikely that worming was the cause of your horse's colic. There are reports of impactions occuring after worming, but these are extremely unlikely to be fatal. Colitis can also occur, but usually presents with diarrhoea as the primary sign, not colic.



Please please please give the recommended dose - underdosing will not only be ineffective for your horse, but also contributes to resistance problems for every other horse.

Well seeing as my horses are own their own and i dont share with anyone and im not on a livery yard and i have been doing it for DONKEYs years I will stick to what I know works for me and my horses. Continual use of wormers as prescribed by the manufacturers leads to resistance problems my.


OP - I hope you are feeling stronger.