Anyone else getting foals soon

Joined
19 July 2010
Messages
22,612
I'm really enjoying this. :D I am now dying to see a photo of this horse. ;)

In a way, this is a case of phenotype verses genotype. The way the horse 'looks' v the genes that it has.

I would argue that although he is 'roaned', he doesn't count as a Roan (capital R) because he doesn't have the Roan gene. If it was up to me, sabinos of any degree of expression would be allowed, because although a maximum or medium sabino looks different to a minimal sabino, there isn't a different gene involved. :)

If you decide that only minimal sabinos are allowed, you have to have a cut off point. So when does a minimal sabino become a medium sabino? You can't test for a difference, you'd have to do it by surface area affected by the sabino gene, or something similarly subjective.

You would then have some very good specimens of the breed chucked out of the gene pool/breeding programme, even though their genes are 'allowed'.

I do get a bit narked when passports have the wrong colour down, mainly because it makes the passport not match the horse that it's for. So the breed society registering him as grey makes me quite cross.
Grey Shires are numerically few and far between. Allowing this stallion to serve mares with the thought of producing greys is a complete waste of time, money, and expectations.
I agree with you totally.
 
Joined
19 July 2010
Messages
22,612
Yip after a tough few months of nearly loosing my mare after a c section then making biggest decision to put my foal to sleep I've went and bought a wee filly
E - that must have been really tough for you. I'm very sorry for your loss.

Is your mare OK now?

I hope that you have many, many wonderful years with your filly. :)
 

RutlandH2O

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 January 2009
Messages
1,213
The thing about phenotype vs genotype is that this horse appears to have the phenotype of a roan, AND the genotype of a roan. Without grey forebears, he isn't grey. How do we know he doesn't have the roan gene? Since mares can be roan, and many are, that could be the answer to his colour.

When you mention minimum vs maximum sabino, that is the amount of white, i.e., 4 white legs up to mid-cannon, as opposed to 4 whites up to and including gaskins, stifles, forearms and body splashes (not over the back). The standard for the breed discourages the latter, but the number of champions with extensive white would contradict that directive. Yes, the decision to accept or reject minimum/maximum sabino is so subjective.
 

elumpshie

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 September 2011
Messages
52
Location
glasgow
Its been a tough 2 years last year she was maiden mare put her in foal and had a lovley colt but sadly he was born asleep and had a contracted tendon :( after long talk with vet he said just been bad luck so I tried again and now feel so guilty after wat my mate went threw after c section had another lovley colt but sadly with2 contacted tendons which he had op on straight away but after 5 days I had to make hardest decision and do wat was best for him :( now 6 weeks down line my mare still recovering but gettin back to her self every day :) but I'll never forgive myself for what I put her through x
 

RutlandH2O

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 January 2009
Messages
1,213
Its been a tough 2 years last year she was maiden mare put her in foal and had a lovley colt but sadly he was born asleep and had a contracted tendon :( after long talk with vet he said just been bad luck so I tried again and now feel so guilty after wat my mate went threw after c section had another lovley colt but sadly with2 contacted tendons which he had op on straight away but after 5 days I had to make hardest decision and do wat was best for him :( now 6 weeks down line my mare still recovering but gettin back to her self every day :) but I'll never forgive myself for what I put her through x
You are being too hard on yourself. Your vet is right when he said it has just been bad luck. I've been there and I know what you are going through. Rejoice in your mare's recovery. Slowly, but surely, you are getting your friend back. Every day you see improvement in your mare's health is reason to smile. Now, with your new youngster you've got double the pleasure.
 
Joined
19 July 2010
Messages
22,612
E - it wasn't your fault that the foal had tendon trouble. It sounds like you did everything possible to save the foal. I hope that your mare is fully recovered soon. :)


RH20 -
AND the genotype of a roan. Without grey forebears, he isn't grey. How do we know he doesn't have the roan gene? Since mares can be roan
Firstly - how odd that mares have different rules to stallions. :confused:

Shires (as far as I'm aware) don't have the true Roan gene. Also neither of his parents were Roans, which one (or both) would have been if he was a true Roan.

It is possible to have 'roaning' of the coat but to not be genetically roan. rabicano is another gene that causes roaning.

The breed society needs to decide how 'roan' is defined because having base coloured hairs mixed with white hairs doesn't make a horse genetically roan. Grey can also cause roaning (until the horse greys out further).

So there are four genes that cause roaning, two of which are in the breed.

Does this horse have a website? Could you PM me his name so I can look him up? I wont link to him or reveal who he is.
 

RutlandH2O

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 January 2009
Messages
1,213
It has always irked me that the rules for stallions are not the same for mares. I know, stallions can have a greater influence on numbers in a breed, but if a fault is allowed in mares, it can still be passed to future generations, especially if said mare produces a son who ultimately becomes a prolific sire.

You have to remember that there is a considerable amount of roan in the Shire due to its crosses to Clydesdales in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. Before the Shire became numerically compromised, Clyde was infused into the breed to improve front action in the Shire and to
confer a silkier, whiter feather. With that came wall eyes and roaning. When the grading up registry was instituted to increase Shire numbers (during its decline due to mechanisation on farms) that, too, introduced roaning to a great degree. There are breeders of both breeds on the same farms and sometimes it's difficult to know which one of their animals is a Shire and which is a Clyde. I believe the prohibition of roan in Shire stallions is a direct result of the roan that comes with crosses to Clydes (soooo many are roan).

I agree, this is fun. I'm really enjoying it!
 
Joined
19 July 2010
Messages
22,612
You have to ask - when is a roan, not a Roan? ;)

I would say that all sabinos, rabicanos and greys are not roans even when they 'look' it.

This Clydesdale (nearest one) is not a roan - it's a sabino.



If you decided to eradicate sabino from the Shire population, then you would end up with a breed that has hardly any/no white like Cleveland bays as sabino is one of the main causes of white markings.

The thing is (the bit that I'm stuck on) is that there isn't Roan in the Shire population. sabino - yes.

I can see why they want to differentiate between Shires and Clydesdales. You could decide to never breed from animals with medium or maximum sabino, but you will still get foals from minimal sabino parents that are med/max. It's just the way it goes - like it sounds is the case with this horse.
 

RutlandH2O

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 January 2009
Messages
1,213
I'm starting to fade. To be continued. Maybe I can get a photo of this stallion to you by taking a picture of the photo in the magazine and sending it to you.
 

Venevidivici

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 January 2011
Messages
2,081
The Poitou is cute:) I must confess though *whispers* I did a double take,as initially thought it was 2people in a pantomime costume...sorry! Beautifully unusual though.:)
 

RutlandH2O

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 January 2009
Messages
1,213
You have to ask - when is a roan, not a Roan? ;)

I would say that all sabinos, rabicanos and greys are not roans even when they 'look' it.

This Clydesdale (nearest one) is not a roan - it's a sabino.



If you decided to eradicate sabino from the Shire population, then you would end up with a breed that has hardly any/no white like Cleveland bays as sabino is one of the main causes of white markings.

The thing is (the bit that I'm stuck on) is that there isn't Roan in the Shire population. sabino - yes.

I can see why they want to differentiate between Shires and Clydesdales. You could decide to never breed from animals with medium or maximum sabino, but you will still get foals from minimal sabino parents that are med/max. It's just the way it goes - like it sounds is the case with this horse.
I think you've hit the nail on the head: the word "roan" is being used phenotypically, while the word "grey" is being used genetically.

I have never seen the word "sabino" in any colour description of Shires in the UK. I first came across the word while looking at a list of registered Shires, and their colours, in Australia. I mentioned the word sabino to a few well-known Shire breeders in this country and the response was "pardon?"

When I started breeding Shires, I endeavoured to arm myself with as much information on colour genetics as was possible. I did photographic pedigree searches as far back, where possible, as eight/nine generations, sometimes more, sometimes less. When I mentioned this to a few very influential Shire breeders, they just laughed. They said "you get what you get, you can't breed for colour or make predictions based on a future foal's forebears."

There are a few stallions who are splashed with more white than desirable within the standard. Likewise, there are many mares with only three whites, sometimes two. While the standard does not require four whites, they are very highly prized (despite the fact that there are plenty of quality Shires missing a white, while there are those with four whites and that's all that can be said for their quality). Many Shire folk keep mares with three whites (because they are less expensive to acquire), breed from them, produce foals with four whites, and extol the praises of the mare in producing a full set of whites. It's in the next generation that the "missing" whites appear. Having said all that, it is a genetic crap shoot, except where grey is concerned.
 

RutlandH2O

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 January 2009
Messages
1,213
I love the Clyde in your previous post. I had one like that for 12 years and lost him to severe colic in 2010. He was a bit paler than the aforementioned Clyde, but we always referred to him as roan.

Okay, what is the correct term for a roan? Is it a phenotypical colouring or a genetic expression of colour? How?
 

RutlandH2O

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 January 2009
Messages
1,213

RutlandH2O

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 January 2009
Messages
1,213
Thank you, ester, for those photos. I know Faracat will be most interested in seeing them.

The photo I have is taken at the same event. However, the reproduction in the magazine in which is appears, is substantially darker.
 
Top