Anyone Have Experience Of This?

[Tia]

A horse on my yard arrived a month or so ago and looked to be in decent condition. Legs appeared clean. The horse, at this time, was highly aggressive to all other horses and therefore lived in a 3 acre field alone.

Owner left horse in field for 2 weeks and then took horse out to "start getting him fit". This consisted of him taking said horse to our 65ft round pen, owner standing in the middle of round pen pointing schooling whip at horse as he goes around. Horse does not walk, then trot as per normal - he gallops full speed round and round and round for about 20 mins each way. Owner looks like he is happy with this. Owner then uses whip to ask horse to change direction and once again horse tonks around pen. This happened twice within 2 days, as far as I am aware.

When I suggested to owner that galloping the horse in the round pen is not good at all for him, owner said he couldn't stop him from galloping; not true from what I saw, however that is really by the by - what is relevant is that the horse DID gallop around a small enclosed area for almost 40 minutes two days in a row.

A day after the second "fittening session" the farrier came so all horses were done and then I went to get this horse. Off-fore leg now looks totally deformed. The cannon bone actually looks bowed outwards - not small and round like a splint though, more the size that if I cup my hand around it, it fits inside perfectly. So a large area is sticking out - not hard but not soft swelling either. No heat on actual bump but heat coming from behind lump. Lump doesn't really move although it sort of does (I know this sounds really silly - I am having trouble explaining it) as I can place my fingers a little bit into the cleft where the tendons run.

The run-down is -
slight heat radiating from underneath the lump
horse not generally lame although took a couple of strides unsound
lump is on the outer side of the cannon bone just below knee
nothing irregular at back of leg or inside of leg
leg looks twisted although this could just be because of the lump

Tail-end of this story is that this all happened about 10 days ago - I informed the owners, they turned up just as farrier was leaving. They said not to worry as horse came from dealer and he would have to take it back if it wasn't suitable; I suggested that there is no way the dealer will take it back in this condition. They said that was okay that they would sell it if it didn't come right; I suggested that they would be lucky to get $800 for it as it stands (they paid $4,500 for it). They didn't seem to like being informed of this LOL! and they haven't been here since.

Any thoughts? I have an idea what I believe it may be but I don't want lead a trail.

 

[Peanot]

Poor horse. IMO he is better off somewhere else as the new owners seriously don`t know how to fitten. This is either a bad splint split or something else that is obviously due to the terrible time in the pen. I think that vet must be called and horse x-rayed. That definately isn`t normal.

 

[ihatework]

My initial reaction was check ligament, but to be honest without seeing and feeling it I really wouldn't want to hazard a guess.
Can you not get a vet out if it hasn't come right after a few days?

 

[Tia]

If it was my horse, it would have been seen by the vet by now.

 

[Tia]

The leg has been like this for 10 days now. Does not appear to be getting any better or any worse.

I can't call vet out without owner's permission, so am just sitting here twiddling my thumbs.

 

[eohippus]

sounds like a check ligament to me also. Poor horse. What set up is it that the owner does not need to come up for so long, not sure how it works over there. Is there is a person who is responsible in the absence of the owner, if so it is this person who could probably make the decision to get the horse help if it is in obvious pain and suffering. If the owner will not call the vet will he allow it to be movement restricted and bandaged for support?
You cannot beleive the stupidity of some people really.
best regards
Dawn

 

[Tia]

It's the ostrich in the sand scenario..... they haven't been I'll wager, because they hope that if they leave it long enough the horse will be back to normal the next time they come.

Over here most people do not come and see their horses every day - generally once or twice a week. Horses are all on grass livery. I have a clause in my T&C's which state that I have the authority to call the vet if I cannot contact the owner OR in the case of suffering......however neither of these apply. The horse isn't suffering, he appears absolutely fine in himself and isn't lame.

That's interesting that you have come up with the same thoughts as me regarding the injury; I just wanted to throw the symptoms to you all to see whether the general opinion was ligament damage or whether anyone else had seen damage like this originating from another source.

 

[siennamum]

I'm trying to visualise where the swelling is, but thought I would suggest sore shins as an alternative explanation if it's in the cannon bone area..

 

[emma69]

Agree with ligament from where it is - had a horse do something similar (tho not because the owner wanted him to - he was coming back into work, and rather than walk on the lunge he galloped, non-stop) He did something to the tendon sheath that sounds similar (swelling / bruising of the sheath) but not sure that could be it from where you describe, so I imagine something similar could occur with the ligament

 

[Tia]

Sienna, that was my immediate thought on seeing the lump - I assumed horse had bashed himself on the round pen railings or something, however I wouldn't have expected it to remain unchanged over this time-frame.

The lump (sorry for dreadful explanation) - if you are looking at the horse from the front, then the lump comes out in the general area that a splint might occur; maybe a bit higher up though, but on the outside of the leg but it is not shaped like a splint. If you move to the side of the horse, then you can see the lump appears immediately in front of the depression where the ligaments/tendons run. It looks like it is growing out of the cannon bone.....but it isn't. If you can imagine taking a piece of putty, about the size of an orange and then putting it in the palm of your hand and pressing it onto the outside of cannon bone just below the knee and runs to just over half way down the cannon bone, then you would reproduce a similar lump. It isn't poppy-outy and round like a splint though.

If it wasn't piddling it down today then I would go out and take a photo of it. You can't miss it as it is very big!

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
He did something to the tendon sheath that sounds similar (swelling / bruising of the sheath) but not sure that could be it from where you describe

[/ QUOTE ] Yes I have seen this injury a number of times but generally with that type the swelling is further back. Most interesting and I wish I had a scanner!

 

[eohippus]

That does make it harder to intervene then. eh.
However, even though the horse is not showing signs of discomfort, it could still be suffering and is obviously injured. as such it is best that the owners are staying away, worrying thing is though, he has an obvious injury but he is not showing up lame, so the owners may turn up and hammer him again.
On the symptom front, A friends mare did her check ligament and only showed limited signs of lameness on a trot up, but there was obvious weakness there. She went through the whole vet package to get her sound, and it did work, I worked on rehabilitating her to be ridden again and she is back to normal. However, I would not like to say whether this would be the same if it was just left to 'heal' by itself. By the sound of the amount bowing you are seeing it sounds like the damage is worse than our experience, but this is just speculation.
Like you said they can never sell it in this condition to anyone with knowledge, so it does not bare thinking about what will eventually happen to this poor horse. Some owners need shooting.
Fully sympathise with your situation.
If you cannot intervene with the vet then maybe you could at least poultice and bandage ect the horse to help it.
best of luck
Dawn

 

[Tia]

These people are idiots I'm afraid. To be perfectly frank I am only waiting to see them in person to give them notice. The horse is an 8 year old, 15hh Arab/Appaloosa with a very aggressive nature, infact I would hazard a guess that he has some sort of neurological issue; on arriving here I put him in a paddock of his own for a few days - he seemed fine talking to the other horses over the fences but when he first went in with some of my horses, he literally ripped the flesh off 5 of them (and I really mean ripped the flesh off!!) within an hour - I promptly removed him to his very own field.

The owner is 65 years old, hasn't ridden for 15 years, weighs about 350lbs, is probably never likely to ride and is a complete and utter tosspot! He tells me he has a problem with authority! Doesn't like being told what to do......therefore I haven't told him what to do and whatwith the sueing culture appearing over here I am also very reluctant to do much with this horse. I have been doing the usual; cold hosing and applying liniment but I won't bandage incase of being implicated in damaging the horse further.

It is a really weird situation. All my other boarders are terrific people but they all cannot stand this dumb guy and his dopey wife. Oh the stories I could tell that would make you all laugh, cringe and curl up inside ..... but it would be unprofessional of me to do so.... would it be unprofessional to tell you that he and his wife turned up at 7.30am on a Bank Holiday Sunday and parked their car right outside our house and facing our bedroom window - they sat in their car for 40 mins. Now bearing in mind we have tonnes and tonnes of parking here at our farm and no-one ever parks where we park our vehicles.

For anyone interested, this is the guy who wanted to buy my huge Spotty Horse and he offered me 8 grand for him........I refused to sell Spots to him; and every day I feel totally satisfied that I have good intuition.

 

[eohippus]

Wow, I bet you are pleased, just to think of what could have happened to spots, argghhhhh. On the plus side if he has not ridden for so long, is fat and stupid the horse may end up turned away or with someone more knowledgable and not riden by this tw*t anyway.
There does not sound like there is much more you can do for this horse than you are already doing, and I bet you will be glad to see the back of the owners. Frustrating not to be able to do more, but other than saying the horse got stolen or jumped the fence and ran off into the distance, all you can do is keep it comfortable. I will probably be shot for this, but hopefully the injury is bad enough that the horse can never be ridden again and PTS, as it sounds like this would be the best thing for him.
Best regards
Dawn

 

[Tia]

I actually agree with you. The equine community over here is just as close-knit as it is in the UK and when another of my boarders turned up a few weeks ago and saw the horse she informed me that her daughter (in her 30's and a very good rider) owned this horse for 7 years. She had bought him as a yearling - he was a lovely horse right up till about 5 years ago and then apparently he just flipped. No reason known. The horse had always lived at home with her daughter but caused so much damage to her horses that the mother took the horse to her farm for a year. Mother has 2 bruisers of horses ..... and blow me down, she said that this Appy beat the living daylights out of both her horses! Her daughter finally gave up and sold the horse to the dealer for 700 and the guy bought him a week later for 4,500.

The guy took me to the dealers to evaluate the horse prior to him buying it -

I told him no way was this the horse for him!
The dealer told him it was not the horse for him!
The groom who was trying to stay in the saddle whilst the horse bucked and reared and galloped round the arena told him the horse was not for him!

I wasted 4 hours of my time going to see this horse in exchange for the guy giving my husband a bottle of red wine......we never did see the red wine.....but we were unlucky enough to get the horse!!

I saw the dealer at a show the other week and he asked if the guy was still alive!!

 

[emma69]

good on you for not selling them the spotty one

 

[TrecPeter]

That's a terrible story - poor you.
Haven't we humans got a lot to learn yet (from horses & other species)

Good luck,

 

[beh]

my horse had a leg like that they looked like they had bowed outwards, but i was not roaring it round a sand pen (promise!). vet said she had tendonitus, but i was not entirely happy with that diagnosis sp

 

[PapaFrita]

What a w@nker!! The owner of the horse I mean. I would hazard a guess at ligament damage too. Also seems consistent with the sort of 'punishment' neddie has been receiving. He and his wife sound a bit creepy too!

 

[Tia]

That's the perfect word PF!!

 

[Tia]

Thank you. Yes I think the general concensus is that it is this - nice to hear directly from someone who has seen this.

 

[Caritas]

Horses are rarely lame with check ligament problems. I had a mare that did hers, same lump as the horse you are describing. It was sound trotting up on hard ground and on flexion, it only showed slight lamness every few strides on a soft cerface after being worked for 10 mins or so. You must also let the horse have its head as if you keep them in an outline the lamness was quite easily disguised, good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[Sooty]

Do you think the horse's aggression is caused by the treatment he has received at the hands of these owners, or a separate issue? It sounds like a vicious circle, they way the man 'schools' him is probably due to the fact that he daren't get too close to him. If he makes the horse gallop, in a circle, form cold, then he is lucky the horse isn't in an even worse shape than he is. It must be very frustrating not being able to either help the horse or advise the owner, the sooner both are gone the better. Can't help but feel sorry for the horse though.

 

[Tia]

No I genuinely think the horse has something not quite right going on in its head. He is actually a really nice horse to handle on the ground and yesterday I put him back in with my guys......he immediately went up to them and tried to start his bullying again.....however Spotty Horse is in the field now!! There were no fights, no bites, no kicks, just ears back and "hey this is MY field and you are the newcomer so lay off my herd!!" Red, Oscar, Jet, Sureshot and Cody all suffered at the hands of this horse previously, but since Spots is now in the field all is calm. I have noticed that even Jet and Sureshot who are the quietest and most non-aggressive horses have even started not taking any nonsense. Old Red (who had huge areas ripped from him) has been seeing him off!!

VERY unlike Red.

The owner can't be blamed as he only bought him a month ago and hasn't done anything with him apart from the 2 round pen "outings". He isn't a cruel man, he's very kind to the horse actually; his problem is that he is just incredibly ignorant.

Having watched the horse yesterday and this morning I have to say that he probably has potential. He has calmed down immensely and I think if he was mine he would turn out fine. It does frustrate me that there are so many dufus people who just go out and buy horses willy-nilly.

I actually quite like the horse, even seeing his bad points; he is very very tactile with humans and has perfect ground manners. He's never been a trouble leading or dealing with him. If I liked the owner (and the horse wasn't injured) then I would probably take the horse down to the round pen and show him that there are other things we can do in there that are far more fun than banging oneself up.

I don't feel sorry for the horse for as long as he is here, but I will feel sorry for him once he leaves. Still haven't seen any sign of the owner......

 

[SirenaXVI]

Lord! First things first - run the owner flat out in the round pen, do this for at least 40 mins two days running ....................................................................................................................... then shoot him

 

[Alex_kate]

i would give him a massive print out of how to properly fitten a horse. what a Nob

 

[Tia]

Owners of horse have just been on the phone. The waffled on about how sorry they were that they haven't been down....something about him having a sore neck.....how bloody ironic!!

Anyway I had a lengthy discussion with them and they are calling the vet out.....yaaaay! success! Hopefully he will be here tomorrow.

 

[Fairynuff]

Tia, if its lig probs and left untreated etc by "MR PLONKER" the horse may end up like this mare called Zippo. Will tell her tale later as I rely on oh to do the photy thing for me. M.

 

[Tia]

Oh dear, poor horse!! Is she one at your farm? Or is she in the capable hands of my Mr Plonker's relatives?

 

[Fairynuff]

Its a long story but Ill keep it as short as poss. Oh was called out to move a mare to a QH breeder. The owners had decided to give up on her-so far so good. Oh phoned me about an hour later telling me about this poor mare who was so honest that in her state she tried her best to help everyone load her up. When she got to breeders the first thing breeder did was ask for her docs and when she was due in season. He intended to have her covered asap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had oh call the owner and offer a small price for her which he agreed to( he was giving her free to breeder). Zippo came to me in a worse condition than you see her in the photos.She was covered in bed sores, thin as a rake and with the longest feet Ive ever seen. I got my blacksmith out the same day and he took a huge knife and lit chopped off the front of her feet, he couldnt have doe otherwise as she couldnt stand on 3. Ali my vet came the next day and gave me anti inflams and stuff to make her comfortable for a while. She spent a month with me enjoying the sun on her back, attention and carrots and when she told me it was time for her to go....When she lay down in her box or in the field she couldnt get up on her own and would wait till someone came to help her. By pulling on her headcollar she could get the momentum to heave herself up and would honestly thank you for your help. I like to think she had a happyish end. I still cry when I think of her good manners and honesty and all the pain she put up with. Its very humbling. M.

Zippo was imported from Canada as a barrel racer. She was very good at it and won almost everything till her check ligs started to go. She continued to race and this was the outcome. The QH breeder wanted her as her pedigree was important and she had a Gold something on it(maybe you can explain the Gold something to me?).How anyone could let her get into that condition is beyond me. HOw could ANYONE expect her to take the weight of a stallion and then carry a foal is also beyond me. Sunny bloody Italy eh??????????????? M.