Anyone have experience with severe Spavin in hock?

[kellyb]

Hi everyone, We could do with some advice preferably by someone who is knowledgeable about this kind of problem which we have been dealing with for a long time.

We bought our Haflinger gelding through a local riding school owner 3 years ago. He is now 10 years old. He was not a riding school horse, just sold by the owner and he came from Ireland. We were told he was always bullied by the other horses no matter who he was put with. He had been kicked a couple times but apparently not in the leg we have had problems with and the school owner made sure he was sound before she allowed us to buy him.

Within the first year we noticed some very occasional limping but it would quickly go away so we assumed he must have hurt it while playing in the field with his companion. We did call the vet out but they could not see any problem as it would seem to go away as quickly as it appeared.

Last year we discovered he had a large spavin on his hock. We had not noticed it before and by the time it was found it was really quite large. The vet took x-rays which showed a large, aggressive spavin.

He explained to us how the particular joint where the spavin was could fuse eventually so that our horse would no longer be in pain and would be able to be used as normal (not anything very demanding) but that it would take time and we should use him as much as we could in order to bring on the fusing action.He gave us Danilon to give for pain. He also had 2 treatments with Tildren over a period of months.

Right after the second dose, he seemed to be doing very well and we had even said to someone that it had worked wonders on him....

However within a few days of that he suddenly went right downhill with the Spavin. He was holding the leg up, not wanting to put weight on it, limping very badly. Oddly, after maybe an hour, we would go back to the field to check on him and he would be fine. Nothing seemed to trigger it and it would come on very severe but then go completely away within hours.

We could only assume that it would get bad when he did not move it for awhile and would improve a bit after he walked around. We waited and did as suggested but we saw no improvement and often times the limping was too severe for us to want to push him even to bring the fusing on.

He eventually went back in for more x-rays which did not really show improvement as the vet had hoped. He said it was a very aggressive osteoarthritis and that without surgery the only other thing he could try was Osphos. He also said that our horse had it in his other hock but that spavin came and went quickly, leaving the area well fused with no pain.

He had his injection of Osphos and we were given more Danilon to give him for pain when needed and advised to use him as much as possible which we have been doing.

It is now just over a year since the first Tildren treatment and the first treatments for this problem. We had hoped that he would be much better but he still limps a lot. We still give him some Danilon when he seems quite sore and my daughter hacks him out. He often wants to take off for gallop (clocked his big self at 24 mph the other day!) but then he really does suffer for it afterwards.

My daughter (whose horse he is) would like to do lots more with him but every day she goes to see how he is doing, if his limp is bad or not, before she knows what she can do.

Does this problem always go away?

Will the joint definitely fuse? (it is the one that can fuse without causing him problem, not the one that's more "important", but I can not remember the name now)

Anyone else had Tildren and found it not to work? What about the Osphos?

What's the prognosis?

Any insight would be much appreciated. Thank you

 

[noblesteed]

Mine has pretty bad spavin in both hocks, diagnosed early last year that was treated by the vet with steroid injections. He could have had tildren but I decided to go for the less intensive treatment first. He had 2 sets of injections then gradually built up work.
I never buted him as the vet said if he feels pain he's not going to make himself worse by over-doing it.
I completely abandoned jumping and schooling as that is what made him worse. He was and still is lame behind when turning left. It wasn't fair on him to do that. However he was a fantastic happy hacker so that's what we did. He got to the point where he was happy with a fast 2-hour hack with a day off in the field after, even popping a log in the woods. That's fine with me as I have 2 small children so I am too busy for any more than that.
At christmas the boss vet came out and checked him over and said he thinks one side has fused and the other almost, and no further treatment necessary unless he needed it. He said he'd pass a vet as a happy hacker.
Yes I do find he was better some days than others. He is much better when exercised every couple of days. He's sore if ridden every day. I would never leave him for a week. He needs daily turnout.
He's not fully sound and will never be ridden in the school again or be lunged. But he was fine for what I wanted to do and enjoying himself.
Sadly, probably due to his hocks being much better, he stumbled out riding and damaged his annular ligament and tendon sheath in the slightly didgy hind leg.
After an operation we are now trying to get him sound again! Nightmare as box rest is the worst thing for arthritis.

Other things I found helped were turmeric, rose hips and I found the best feed was D&H safe and sound. Keep him warm and lots of turnout.

Basically I think its a condition that can be managed but your expectations of what your horse will be able to do in future will need to be altered. I also wouldn't ride him on danilon as he could injure himself and not feel it, hence he'll be worse the next day.

 

[kellyb]

Thank you noblesteed. It sounds like some of your vet advice was different from ours however some things quite the same. We decided between ourselves not to run him along on the bute but we give him some if he is limping or after something a bit more strenuous. He lives out which our vet said was best for him anyway.

With regards to the Turmeric, how much do you give your horse?

Our daughter would like to do some jumping with him and she does a bit in our field now but he will usually require the bute after or the next day. I wonder if he would ever be able to go to some local shows though? The vet seems to think that will be fine but I am not so sure and I am concerned about my daughter never being able to the things she likes with him because of the problem.

 

[old hand]

yes but my horse, with the agreement of my vet, was treated totally differently. No bute or injections of any type, the theory being that the inflammation would encourage the joints to fuse. Horse worked daily, no days off, encouraged to work from behind and walking only to start with but insisting he used both hind legs equally. Once he felt more level, not sound but just better and more able to go forward started small trots, 50 metres at first, work building to half an hour a day. Personally I don't see how Osphos or Tildren will help the joint fuse as they stop the bone remodelling. Ethanol injections can help but I was advised against those too as they may damage the tendons and ligaments. My horse returned to full work, showjumping to 1.10, he won 7 BS classes last year and did 8 double clears, and whilst we have decided now that he should not keep competing he is still sound in full work and his hocks have fused. The decision to discontinue competing was due to a conformational problem in his front legs and nothing to do with the spavins, which were inherited from his mother.

 

[applecart14]

I know its not for everyone but fusion with ethanol is very effective in a vast majority of horses mine included. Its around £300 for both hocks, and its contrast dye xrays and then the actual injection into the joint which kills the nerves and prevents pain. My horse was back jumping within months, doing dressage, etc.

Did a lovely dressage test on Sunday coming 2nd and his hocks are coming well under him, he is using them very well and the vet is very pleased with the outcome. My horse started off with the intra articular injections, then had tildren, but the fusion was the most effective. Both hocks have fused although it can take up to 18 months or longer for this to happen. In the meantime the horse is still pain free.

 

[[59668]]

My connie was diagnosed at the age of 7 with spavin in both hocks. Long story short, had Tildren, Osphos and steroid injections, and 6 months off and still didn't come sound. So I retired him as a companion

 

[ester]

I'm not sure why tildren was used on an aggressive large spavin while saying once it fused it would be fine as tildren delays fusing??

From your post it sounds like this pony is doing more work than he can cope with, and then sore the day after. It would be much better for him to be in consistent daily work at a level he can cope with. Is he turned out 24/7?

 

[kellyb]

yes but my horse, with the agreement of my vet, was treated totally differently. No bute or injections of any type, the theory being that the inflammation would encourage the joints to fuse. Horse worked daily, no days off, encouraged to work from behind and walking only to start with but insisting he used both hind legs equally. Once he felt more level, not sound but just better and more able to go forward started small trots, 50 metres at first, work building to half an hour a day. Personally I don't see how Osphos or Tildren will help the joint fuse as they stop the bone remodelling. Ethanol injections can help but I was advised against those too as they may damage the tendons and ligaments. My horse returned to full work, showjumping to 1.10, he won 7 BS classes last year and did 8 double clears, and whilst we have decided now that he should not keep competing he is still sound in full work and his hocks have fused. The decision to discontinue competing was due to a conformational problem in his front legs and nothing to do with the spavins, which were inherited from his mother.

I did reply to this but something must have gone wrong because I see it did not appear- I was wondering Old Hand what you do to encourage the work from the behind? Thank you.

 

[kellyb]

I'm not sure why tildren was used on an aggressive large spavin while saying once it fused it would be fine as tildren delays fusing??

From your post it sounds like this pony is doing more work than he can cope with, and then sore the day after. It would be much better for him to be in consistent daily work at a level he can cope with. Is he turned out 24/7?

The vet said he hoped the Tildren would stop the deterioration of bone and aid in the forming of new bone. He has had 2 lots of Tildren on the vet's advice. I think he hoped it would work well enough so that we would not need to rely on the fusing alone.

He does live out 24/7. He has a shelter but does prefer to be out roaming and grazing. The vet said that was best anyway as it would keep gently moving. We have been told to keep him working as much as possible but as mentioned before, we try to judge whether he would be comfortably able and if he seems to sore, we just leave him be. It is a balance we try to achieve between keeping him moving and letting him rest.

 

[kellyb]

My connie was diagnosed at the age of 7 with spavin in both hocks. Long story short, had Tildren, Osphos and steroid injections, and 6 months off and still didn't come sound. So I retired him as a companion

This is what I feared. I suppose each horse is different in how they respond. I am hoping we will not have to retire our boy.

 

[ester]

The vet said he hoped the Tildren would stop the deterioration of bone and aid in the forming of new bone. He has had 2 lots of Tildren on the vet's advice. I think he hoped it would work well enough so that we would not need to rely on the fusing alone.

He does live out 24/7. He has a shelter but does prefer to be out roaming and grazing. The vet said that was best anyway as it would keep gently moving. We have been told to keep him working as much as possible but as mentioned before, we try to judge whether he would be comfortably able and if he seems to sore, we just leave him be. It is a balance we try to achieve between keeping him moving and letting him rest.

I think as much as possible might well have meant worked regularly within his limits. If he is lame after he shouldn't be jumping or doing fast work however keen he seems at the time.

Has the vet suggested steroid injections into the joint as a possibility?

 

[kellyb]

I think as much as possible might well have meant worked regularly within his limits. If he is lame after he shouldn't be jumping or doing fast work however keen he seems at the time.

Has the vet suggested steroid injections into the joint as a possibility?

Yes I am quite sure he did mean "within his limits" and that is what we are trying to do though sometimes it is difficult to gauge what the limits are as he will seem quite well at times.

He did not suggest Steroid injections that I can recall or we would have tried it if he thought it was worthwhile.

 

[ester]

It's not unusual to use them for joint pain, spavin, arthritis so it might be worth asking him why not. - targetted reduction of inflammation essentially over a longish period of time 3-6 months.

One other thought would be that as a haffy to keep his weight down as much as you can will probably keep him more comfortable.

I is hard to judge from here because you say that he is lame a lot but seems quite well at other times, perhaps keep a diary of the work he does and when he is lame. But my feeling would be that he needs lots of slow walk and trot work in straight lines to keep him moving but quite possibly not more at the moment even if daughter wants to do more. The rates of fusion can vary a lot.

 

[kellyb]

Thank you ester and to everyone who took the time to reply. I appreciate hearing your opinions and advice.

 

[noblesteed]

In my horse's case, as his hocks were well on the way to being fused he was comfortable galloping on the beach and fast hacks through our very hilly woods. The vet told me that a set of steroid injections are always available whenever he needs them. At £150 I am happy to pay for them once or twice a year to keep him going.
Maybe talk to your vet about this?

HOWEVER in terms of the work he was doing - I retired him from schooling, lunging and jumping as it was the sharp turns that were hurting him. He was fine to gallop uphill on varied terrain in a straight line and jump a couple of logs. But he still objects to left bend. I was planning to try hunting him, and he would probably manage a xc course. But I doubt he would have done any form of showjumping as it's too fast and the turns are too tight for him.
At present he is recovering from a tendon op and managing his walking out rehab just fine though he is more stiff in his hocks than he was when he was in work.

If your daughter doesn't enjoy hacking, I think you might have a problem. But as your horse is still fairly young and lives out, a hacking home wouldn't be difficult to find for him. I would certainly take on another hacker with spavin as I know it can be managed and I have no desire to compete. It may be worth having a chat with your daughter about it as obviously you want her to enjoy horse ownership and you also need to do what's best for your horse.

 

[Lgd]

My now 20yo showed up lame on and off at 17yo when her foal was about 4 months old. We buted her sparingly while he was still on her then once weaned then 2 sachets a day which made her sound. The instruction was then to work her as normal (she's a dressage/hacking horse) which actually meant getting her fit and then if no lameness gradually reduce the bute. I also put her on turmeric about half way through.
She was on the bute for about 4 months and once off and just on the turmeric stayed completely sound - to the point she actually resumed her BD career -mainly because they desperately needed a medium horse for the intercounty comp but she went so well on a trial outing she qualified for regionals
She did her last regionals at 19yo and got placed in the medium open. She developed a spavin in the other hock this year aged 20 - not actually lame this time, just felt stiff when starting off. She's had another course of bute and is now staying sound on just the turmeric and boswellia. I have actually retired her from affiliated now, but nothing to do with the hocks - unfortunately grey and has melanoma, small one in mouth has knocked out the nerves to the corner of her mouth on one side so the contact response in a snaffle is zilch even if you have a double bridle on. She's thoroughly happy in the pelham version of her weymouth but obviously not dressage legal. Very much a 'dammit' moment as she is going better than ever and easily doing most of the GP work at home.
Now doing a bit of veteran showing and she won and qualified for equifest on her first outing. Judge couldn't believe she was 20yo.

 

[kellyb]

In my horse's case, as his hocks were well on the way to being fused he was comfortable galloping on the beach and fast hacks through our very hilly woods. The vet told me that a set of steroid injections are always available whenever he needs them. At £150 I am happy to pay for them once or twice a year to keep him going.
Maybe talk to your vet about this?

HOWEVER in terms of the work he was doing - I retired him from schooling, lunging and jumping as it was the sharp turns that were hurting him. He was fine to gallop uphill on varied terrain in a straight line and jump a couple of logs. But he still objects to left bend. I was planning to try hunting him, and he would probably manage a xc course. But I doubt he would have done any form of showjumping as it's too fast and the turns are too tight for him.
At present he is recovering from a tendon op and managing his walking out rehab just fine though he is more stiff in his hocks than he was when he was in work.

If your daughter doesn't enjoy hacking, I think you might have a problem. But as your horse is still fairly young and lives out, a hacking home wouldn't be difficult to find for him. I would certainly take on another hacker with spavin as I know it can be managed and I have no desire to compete. It may be worth having a chat with your daughter about it as obviously you want her to enjoy horse ownership and you also need to do what's best for your horse.

Thank you for your reply. I think I will ask about the steroid injections as several people here have mentioned it. It may at least keep him comfortable until his hock has fused.

My daughter does definitely enjoy hacking and she hacks him out whenever she thinks he is well enough. Sometimes though, lately anyway, he is not really well enough a lot- as in limping- I am not sure why it seems like it is worse rather than better after the treatments and the time. one of the members here said the Tildren was not helpful when we are hoping for the joint to fuse but surely the vet would know that wouldn't he?

The troubled hock is the right one but he always leads with the left leg in canter- he struggles to lead with his right leg, on the right rein. Wouldn't we expect that to be the opposite? He is very unbalanced on the right, through muscle weakness I would guess.

She never does anything fast such as turns in jumping a course etc. He may choose to gallop if they are out on a hack but she never makes him do that. That is up to him. He is treated with great care. I have even wondered if he realises he does not have to go for a hack if he limps and uses it to his advantage. He can be a bit lazy sometimes

We would never get rid of him. He is a family member.

 

[kellyb]

My now 20yo showed up lame on and off at 17yo when her foal was about 4 months old. We buted her sparingly while he was still on her then once weaned then 2 sachets a day which made her sound. The instruction was then to work her as normal (she's a dressage/hacking horse) which actually meant getting her fit and then if no lameness gradually reduce the bute. I also put her on turmeric about half way through.
She was on the bute for about 4 months and once off and just on the turmeric stayed completely sound - to the point she actually resumed her BD career -mainly because they desperately needed a medium horse for the intercounty comp but she went so well on a trial outing she qualified for regionals
She did her last regionals at 19yo and got placed in the medium open. She developed a spavin in the other hock this year aged 20 - not actually lame this time, just felt stiff when starting off. She's had another course of bute and is now staying sound on just the turmeric and boswellia. I have actually retired her from affiliated now, but nothing to do with the hocks - unfortunately grey and has melanoma, small one in mouth has knocked out the nerves to the corner of her mouth on one side so the contact response in a snaffle is zilch even if you have a double bridle on. She's thoroughly happy in the pelham version of her weymouth but obviously not dressage legal. Very much a 'dammit' moment as she is going better than ever and easily doing most of the GP work at home.
Now doing a bit of veteran showing and she won and qualified for equifest on her first outing. Judge couldn't believe she was 20yo.

Love to hear this, thank you.

 

[old hand]

To work from behind,sit tall and ride forwards and straight. The horse must move from leg to hand and be soft over its top line. I built the work up slowly so never got to a point where the horse was stiff the morning after work, it was a question of looking and feeling for levelness and making sure that he tracked up on every stride. It was hard work but worth it, and we loose jumped him before we jumped with a rider on so that I could watch every stride to ensure that he was using both hind legs equally. He jumped on grass on a hill with studs in and also indoors. Neither made him stiff or lame at all. I would agree that if there is a reaction then the workload is too high, I would drop back a level and just keep working at the same level every day until there is no reaction. If the spavin does not fuse then ethanol may be the only answer, but I also fed 35mg of magnesium oxide and 35mg of calcium plus a full vitamin and mineral supplement daily.

 

[kellyb]

To work from behind,sit tall and ride forwards and straight. The horse must move from leg to hand and be soft over its top line. I built the work up slowly so never got to a point where the horse was stiff the morning after work, it was a question of looking and feeling for levelness and making sure that he tracked up on every stride. It was hard work but worth it, and we loose jumped him before we jumped with a rider on so that I could watch every stride to ensure that he was using both hind legs equally. He jumped on grass on a hill with studs in and also indoors. Neither made him stiff or lame at all. I would agree that if there is a reaction then the workload is too high, I would drop back a level and just keep working at the same level every day until there is no reaction. If the spavin does not fuse then ethanol may be the only answer, but I also fed 35mg of magnesium oxide and 35mg of calcium plus a full vitamin and mineral supplement daily.

Great advice, thank you for taking the time to write it out.