Anyone seen anything like this before?? Please help!?

mad4

mad4

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Hoping someone here will be able to offer some advice, and maybe some hope!

My girly is a shire x TB and i bought her as a 3 yr old in july 2012. she came from a herd and was completely untouched. To my mind she never grew as i expected her to, she is VERY fussy with food, will not eat haylege and takes forever to eat hard feed (if she finishes it at all) and will not eat any type of horse treats.

so now at rising 6 she is the same size as when i bought her (15.2) ( her mother was 17hh at least, dad was 16hh) and she looks like she has not done any work wheras she has been worked 4 times a week on average since oct 2012 (hacking, lunging).

she is on a good worming program and we have tried all manner of conditioning feeds. she is VERY quiet, struggles to exercise properly, she never seems to get any fitter?

about 3 weeks ago she developed a pitting oedema underneath which looks like this

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202477202107039&l=1983762978991770477

she also has very enlarged ?lymph nodes at the base of her neck (at the thoracic inlet right above her pectoral muscles) and distended jugular veins with what looks like a jugular pulse.


so my questions are.....

has anyone seen ventral oedema like this before? and what turned out to be the cause?

has anyone had a horse with enlarged lumps at the thoracic inlet before? what was the cause?

any thoughts much appreciated, my vets are baffled and they are planning further tests...:(


so sorry for the essay, thanks if you made it this far.
 
I would be very suspicious of a heart problem as I had a horse with this and he did have heart failure, I hope this is not the case with yours, but an ECG would confirm or rule out this being the cause!
 
I had a mare who had this sort of oedema all along under her belly, especially just prior to foaling, and she lost weight when she was feeding a foal too. Coincidentally she was a big heavy mare too - ID at the very least, probably with some draft of one sort or another thrown in. She did have a heart murmur and needed a stimulant the only time she foaled after it was diagnosed.
She lived into her '20s and we found her dead in the field one day. I would get your vet on the case - circulatory issues of one sort or another, probably leaky heart IMO. There may well be some treatment these days, it was 30 years since mine was diagnosed.
 
that is the major dilemma

one vet saying she thinks there is a massive heart issue and mare needs to be PTS - although she cannot hear a murmur or arrythmia -
she is saying poss cardiology referral

second vet saying she does not think the heart is the issue, wanting to treat with antibiotics and a biopsy of the enlarged glands.

bloods are showing normal protien levels, liver function fine although looks to be fighting an infection? high fibrinogen, neutrophillia, lymphocytosis.

no ECG as yet as the practice does not have one which can be brought to the yard.
 
not being ridden currently. she has had a fluctuating temperature and has been very dull, although the antibiotics have helped. she is brighter

but the oedema is unchanged and the lymph nodes are still massive.

she is uninsured, i dont mind paying for treatment at all but i just wish the vets could agree on which direction to investigate first...
 
I would refer to a univeristy for a work up .
Mine horse went to Edinburgh who have a heart specialist and the insurance company sentinel a second they wrote the horse off on LOU and recommended PTS.
However I have my horse now fit well and working normally having made a full recovery over time so it not all doom and gloom .
But first you need to find what's wrong and a centre of excellence is the place to go.
Is the horse insured ?
 
Cross post there sorry .
You need to decide how much you can spend stop sending on more stuff from your own vets if you can and get referred .
You need to find the right place to go though.
fattys bill was over£ 5000.
Speak honestly with the vets about money and see where you are.
 
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this is her this summer - after masses of conditioning feed & steady work

and this is her when i bought her @ 3yrs old

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Have her teeth ever been checked? Properley checked as in sedated, clean mouth and light? My horse couldn't eat feed for months improved on doxycycline, went backwards off it. It started when she was 17 months old. She had/has diastema's and severe peridontal disease. She had other things going on too but her teeth are still causing probs now and i think are the most likely reason she couldn't eat feed. She eats feed fine now as long as its not cold and watery. She has spent most of the last two years on and off antibiotics. She looks very well now but always has an extra glow in her coat when on antibiotics, she usually has ten days every two to three weeks. She wants to eat hay and at times quids badly on hay, but a lot of horses i've known with teeth problems just don't want to eat much hay. Teeth problems can cause heart problems if the bacteria get into the blood stream.
 
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I would get a referral to a specialist center as quick as you can to be honest. I get the feeling her case is a bit too complex for the vet you are using..... I would also consider the biopsy as well as looking at her heart.
Kx
 
Hate to say it, but my first thought was lymphoma. Not sure if that would tie in with the normal protein levels though, but it does cause ventral oedema and weight loss/lack of condition. A heart condition would also be high on my list.
Hope you manage to find the cause and it's something that can be treated.
 
Does she always stand with her hind legs under her like in your second photo? My horse with the teeth problem also had raised lymphocoytes in blood and peritoneal fluid, low total protein and anemia. Her blood was sent off and tested for cancer, she didn't have it thankfully. She does have a thickening in her large intestine that can be felt rectally, and it was probably that causing the raised lymphocytes.
Raised lymphocytes can also be due to chronic inflammation although most things you will read say it can be due to cancer.

Liver fluke can also cause odema under chin, down the windpipe, on front of chest and along bottom of tummy in some horses. When my horses had it they lost weight mostly off their rib area and wouldn't regain it no matter how much they ate, they were lethargic, if they cantered up the field they looked like they had galloped a mile. Bloods showed anemia and raised fibrinogen, they had normal liver enzymes. Its been a bad 2 years for liver fluke.
 
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Hi,
I am going to offer a ray of hope....
Pitting like that for me always suggests infection, so I would defo go with the vet who suggests anti bios.
Interestingly a friends horse jumped the electric fence.....and a week later developed something similar to your girl....and it turned out she had spiked her undercarriage on the post...but it had closed over immediately....but the cavity filled with pus to create the oedema....anti bios and the thing then burst....worth a try?
Best of luck with whatever you decide.
Bryndu
(PS I am not a vet)
 
OMG she looks awful bless her!! This looks to me as a bad ulcer case. Have you thought of that? With what you say that she wouldn't eat much and was fussy and not eating hayledge, that points to tummy problems. Have you checked her teeth?
 
She looks pretty rough in the summer photo tbh, and the fact that she has never really matured would make me think there is something chronic going on, and that possibly there is now something more acute in addition. I think if I were you I would decide how much I wanted to spend and get her into a major centre for a full work up and let them decide what should be tested first with her history.
 
thanks everyone for your advice

the plan tomorrow is...
1, look at the blood test results so far, testing for EIA, cancer, auto immune conditions etc.
2, find out how much a consult with a cardiologist would be
3, look into sedating to biopsy the chest lumps & examine teeth

& have a honest discussion with the vets about how much there is to spend and what the plan is if we reach the end of the money and still dont have a diagnosis.


the not knowing is by far the worst part. she is such a sweet girl, she dosent deserve this. although my gut has been telling me she is "not right" for a year now so at least we are now investigating rather than being told it was all in my head.

although this afternoon she seems brighter! she is on bute and antibiotics currently but she wanted her tea and is definitly happier. heres hoping its the start of something.

thanks again everyone, ill keep you updated.
 
mad4 said:
thanks everyone for your advice

the plan tomorrow is...
1, look at the blood test results so far, testing for EIA, cancer, auto immune conditions etc.
2, find out how much a consult with a cardiologist would be
3, look into sedating to biopsy the chest lumps & examine teeth

& have a honest discussion with the vets about how much there is to spend and what the plan is if we reach the end of the money and still dont have a diagnosis.


the not knowing is by far the worst part. she is such a sweet girl, she dosent deserve this. although my gut has been telling me she is "not right" for a year now so at least we are now investigating rather than being told it was all in my head.

although this afternoon she seems brighter! she is on bute and antibiotics currently but she wanted her tea and is definitly happier. heres hoping its the start of something.

thanks again everyone, ill keep you updated.
Click to expand...

Good luck with getting a diagnosis, i spent thousands trying to find out why my horse couldn't eat feed/acted colicky eating feed and still don't really know why. Now two years later it seems likely it was to do with her teeth but i don't know for certain as her teeth/mouth is really quite bad at the moment yet she is eating feed fine.
 
Just a little note to thank you all for your input.

after looking at the test results and doing another clinical exam the vets decided we were left with two possible options,

1. a heart defect that was now causing heart failure

2. a thoracic mass or abscess (possibly as a results of strangles as a youngster) which was now pressing on her heart and impairing its function.

Neither of which are treatable so i have decided that i don't want to go any further with the diagnostics.

she is being put to sleep on Thursday :(

she is such a special girl that i cannot watch her deteriorate in the field so im making the decision now so the children and i can remember her while she was looking fairly well and happy. You may not all agree but i feel its the right decision for us :(

thank you all again, i just with i could have been updating you all with a very different outcome..
 
Very brave decision, you should feel proud of yourself that you made the choice in her best interests. Hope it goes as well as it can on Thursday
 
This is a very sad story, it's so hard when they go before their time. I applaud you for doing the right thing by her, if only more owners could put their horses first like this.
 
mad4 said:
Hoping someone here will be able to offer some advice, and maybe some hope!

My girly is a shire x TB and i bought her as a 3 yr old in july 2012. she came from a herd and was completely untouched. To my mind she never grew as i expected her to, she is VERY fussy with food, will not eat haylege and takes forever to eat hard feed (if she finishes it at all) and will not eat any type of horse treats.

so now at rising 6 she is the same size as when i bought her (15.2) ( her mother was 17hh at least, dad was 16hh) and she looks like she has not done any work wheras she has been worked 4 times a week on average since oct 2012 (hacking, lunging).

she is on a good worming program and we have tried all manner of conditioning feeds. she is VERY quiet, struggles to exercise properly, she never seems to get any fitter?

about 3 weeks ago she developed a pitting oedema underneath which looks like this

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202477202107039&l=1983762978991770477

she also has very enlarged ?lymph nodes at the base of her neck (at the thoracic inlet right above her pectoral muscles) and distended jugular veins with what looks like a jugular pulse.


so my questions are.....

has anyone seen ventral oedema like this before? and what turned out to be the cause?

has anyone had a horse with enlarged lumps at the thoracic inlet before? what was the cause?

any thoughts much appreciated, my vets are baffled and they are planning further tests...:(


so sorry for the essay, thanks if you made it this far.
Click to expand...

I would get vet to take bloods, my mare had odemas and it turned out to be liver disease

Picture here http://horse-care-and-advice.weebly.com/l.html half way down.

Just read your updater, sol sorry for your girl.....................:(
 
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mad4 said:
Just a little note to thank you all for your input.

after looking at the test results and doing another clinical exam the vets decided we were left with two possible options,

1. a heart defect that was now causing heart failure

2. a thoracic mass or abscess (possibly as a results of strangles as a youngster) which was now pressing on her heart and impairing its function.

Neither of which are treatable so i have decided that i don't want to go any further with the diagnostics.

she is being put to sleep on Thursday :(

she is such a special girl that i cannot watch her deteriorate in the field so im making the decision now so the children and i can remember her while she was looking fairly well and happy. You may not all agree but i feel its the right decision for us :(

thank you all again, i just with i could have been updating you all with a very different outcome..
Click to expand...
So sorry you didnt get a better outcome for her, such a shame but you have done everything you could will think of you tomorrow x
 
Sorry to see this outcome but sounds like you are doing the right thing, will you do a PM to see what was going on?
 
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