Are local shows fixed?

BMWKIPP

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I had every intention to getting out to my local riding club shows this summer, BUT after the weekend just gone where all but 2 classes, plus the Champ and Reserve Champ being won by people who livery there horses on the site of where the show is held, I'm not going to bother as it's very clearly fixed.
 

BMWKIPP

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It's a DIY yard on an old farm so no fancy facilities, but the riding club is run from the farm too and it really is a case of who you know and not how well you perform.
 

stormox

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I dont think local shows are 'fixed'. No one would want to win under those conditions.
I would think they deserved their places on merit, and possibly their horses were more settled in a place they knew well than the horses that lived elsewhere.
I actually think it wasnt very nice of you to suggest it wasnt a level playing field, maybe you should enter- you might do well.
 

meleeka

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I’ve been to plenty of shows where friends have been placed higher than they deserved. It even happened to me one (I didn’t know that the judge knew my horse and previous owner well) Another good friend of hers was placed first and I was second (That horse didn’t ever get placed above me at any show) Even I could tell there were a couple of more deserving people that should have been above the both of us. That was one judge though and I wouldn’t enter a class where she was judging again.

The trouble with showing is it’s someone else’s opinion, which is rarely the same as someone else’s. If you expect the result to be what you’d have chosen, showing probably isn’t for you. Many of my friends will avoid certain judges as they know they don’t like their horse, but others do so they’ll do better with them. This isn’t fixed it’s just a matter of opinion. It would have been just as unfair for the liveries to be overlooked just because they were liveries.
 

JFTDWS

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Showing can be a bit weird. I went to a local show once where the horses didn't even trot on both reins or canter at all in the ridden class (M&Ms), or give any meaningful sort of individual show, on the instruction of the judge. All he did was feel the horse's legs extensively :rolleyes:

So I think anything's possible - but it's not, or shouldn't be, the norm!
 

ILuvCowparsely

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I had every intention to getting out to my local riding club shows this summer, BUT after the weekend just gone where all but 2 classes, plus the Champ and Reserve Champ being won by people who livery there horses on the site of where the show is held, I'm not going to bother as it's very clearly fixed.
I gave up with showing years ago
For many reasons

1* In a coloured class which included odd coloured, we found out judge loved show coloured cobs. 1- 8 were coloureds all got rosettes, 9 - 13 also coloureds placed. After that came the the palominos and roans and duns. All she said to me was * he is a bit narrow in front* he was ruddy 2 years old what she expect


2 * part bred Arab class 8 of us, one pure arab so they were going to put pure with parts till we said No that is not fair

3* judge had us walking round then lined us up, we did our individual shows, then sent us out, picked her collection leaving 8 of us walking round like idiots, even sent the winners on their lap of honour while we still circling

4* similar never looked at me or my horse while we trotted from front to back, then again lined up her fav so I walked out


5* family pony class where everyone knows it should be able to be ridden by any member and a shetland ended up in line up and welsh A, I mean how does a bloke/ father ride a shetland and welsh a

6* mountain and moorland class all walking round arena , a block with all the attire, with his grey bouncing around on the end of the lead, got to the front to trot round and it bolted, round the arena behind the rest of us coming up our outside next to wall of school winding up other ponies, and we then found out it was a stallion. Had a job to grab it , mares all over the place some led by kids, would you believe he won the class. He looked out of place as he looked more like regional showing standard not a local show.


7* too many out of control spoilt kids charging about in other rings.


8* the top 5 were pony club kids judge a member of pony club



So yes I think its fixed
 

Ddraig_wen

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I wouldn't say fixed necessarily but I've found local shows can be very predictable. It's possible to predict who'll win champion and reserve at about half of our local shows.
One show is usually a family who have lessons with one of the show organisers another is an association show who usually pick friends or committee members. There's been the same set of champions there in the same sections for the past 3 years. There's another show which is 50/50 as to whether certain people but if a certain group turn up they will always win their section regardless of if the pony behaves, is turned out correctly or even behaves. Sadly all 3 run multiple shows which means if I've got a youngster to get out I'll probably end up at one or the other at some point. The entries have fallen through the floor now and still the same people win
 

meleeka

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. There's another show which is 50/50 as to whether certain people but if a certain group turn up they will always win their section regardless of if the pony behaves, is turned out correctly or even behaves.

Perhaps they have undeniably nicer horses? Showing isn’t based on behaviour or turnout, although If you had two horses equal in every way it would come into it. The judge can’t judge a breed class and put something with impeccable manners but average confirmation in front of a badly behaved one with perfect confirmation, however much they might want to.

My guess is the example above of the loose stallion winning the class was because it was head and shoulders a better put together animal than the rest in the class.
 

conniegirl

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OP, I've judged a fair bit at local level and i can honestly say I will always judge what is in front of me and not who is handling the horse.
I've also shows a lot at both county and local level and generaly find that local level is more honest because you don't have judges scratching producers backs for HOYS tickets etc. There are good judges and bad judges at both levels.

I gave up with showing years ago
For many reasons

1* In a coloured class which included odd coloured, we found out judge loved show coloured cobs. 1- 8 were coloureds all got rosettes, 9 - 13 also coloureds placed. After that came the the palominos and roans and duns. All she said to me was * he is a bit narrow in front* he was ruddy 2 years old what she expect

2 * part bred Arab class 8 of us, one pure arab so they were going to put pure with parts till we said No that is not fair

3* judge had us walking round then lined us up, we did our individual shows, then sent us out, picked her collection leaving 8 of us walking round like idiots, even sent the winners on their lap of honour while we still circling

4* similar never looked at me or my horse while we trotted from front to back, then again lined up her fav so I walked out


5* family pony class where everyone knows it should be able to be ridden by any member and a shetland ended up in line up and welsh A, I mean how does a bloke/ father ride a shetland and welsh a

6* mountain and moorland class all walking round arena , a block with all the attire, with his grey bouncing around on the end of the lead, got to the front to trot round and it bolted, round the arena behind the rest of us coming up our outside next to wall of school winding up other ponies, and we then found out it was a stallion. Had a job to grab it , mares all over the place some led by kids, would you believe he won the class. He looked out of place as he looked more like regional showing standard not a local show.


7* too many out of control spoilt kids charging about in other rings.


8* the top 5 were pony club kids judge a member of pony club



So yes I think its fixed

Sorry but I think you have unrealistic views of what should go on at shows and what to expect from judges. I also suspect that you have a case of rose tinted glasses going on.

1) this was an open class not a youngstock class, so whilst some allowances can be made for age it takes an exceptional youngster to beat a good mature pony, also it could be narrow/immature even for a youngster, 2 is an awkward age for ponies and is often why most people don't bother showing 2yr olds . As for the coloureds being placed above the odd coloureds, without seeing them then I cannot say why but from experience I've found that great strides have been made in the last decade at improving the quality of coloured cobs and you get some very very nice ones for not much money now, but with the odd coloureds the quality can be very variable and they can be very coarse, often bred for colour over substance, movement or conformation.

2) It is quite normal for part and purebred arabs to be judged in the same class as numbers for those classes can be quite low. I'm amazed that the show secretary pandered to you. with a good judge it would be completely fair as you are judged against the relevant breed/type standard. Just like mixed M&M classes where Shetlands can be judged against Section D's and Fells against connemara's.

3) The steward should have asked you to leave the ring once the line up was pulled in. In a large class it is normal to only pull in the placings and then dismiss everyone else.

4) do you watch the judge whilst you are trotting up? if so then that is probably part of your problem, if you are concentrating on watching the judge then you are not showing your horse to its best. If someone told you that the judge didn't look at you then the likelyhood is that they are exaggerating it is very very rare that a judge will not look at all.

5) if family pony went purely on size then you would be correct but family ponies do not have to be ridden by every member of the family, it is expected that a small adult could ride the pony but mainly it should be suitable for children and teenagers, not tall blokes. The pony should be mannerly enough for a small child to ride, not so wide that a child has to do the splits, not have huge movement that is likely to unseat a child or elderly relative but have a bit of spark about them so a teenager/small adult wouldnt be bored riding. I do know of a lot of Section A's regularly ridden and shown by both adults and children, I also know of some stunning shetlands that are ridden by children, small teenagers and thier lightweight mums!

6) manners is only a very very small part of the marking for inhand classes, so if the pony was of a much higher standard then everything else there then the judge would have had no option but to place it first. Inhand classes are a 50/50 split between conformation/type and movement. Manners can help you get better marks as its easier to see horses that are behaving, stand and a trot up well but they do not form a component on thier own. BTW there is no such thing as regional showing.

7) showjumping is far worse for that IME. where there are horses there are spoilt children, infact nowadays there are spoilt children running riot in most areas of modern life.

8) it is highly likely that pony club members would ride thier ponies to a higher standard and know how to show thier ponies to the best advantage, it is not necessarily biased judging. also knowing what the judge likes can help enormously, for example I know a couple of judges for ridden classes who love to see added well executed fancy bits (like walk to canters, flying changes or extended trots etc) others want to see a nice simple short show and you wont get extra for fancy bits, some are very very hot on manners and schooling in ridden classes, others will forgive a little spook or a quickly corrected wrong canter strike off, some will give a set show and if you deviate from it you get a 0 mark, some will set a show and minor deviations are ignored, knowing what a judge likes means you can tailor your show appropriately. It can also depend on the class, most will forgive a bit more in a novice class over an open class.
 

Hormonal Filly

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I can think of at least three people who go out and 'win' because of who they are and not whats under them or in hand! I think you'd be surprised just how fixed it all is locally!

Was going to say this, it is much more fixed locally than people think! I've been to a fair few local shows and I can always guarantee what will win before they even enter the ring, either its the instructor for that horse, livery, good friends or some relation. Multiple different shows, much nicer horses all round to be placed not even in the top 10..

It also makes me laugh at most local shows so many judges have no experience and no idea what good confirmation or good paces look like! I wouldn't judge as I don't have enough knowledge of that, but I know people who 'judge' at these shows and have less than me. I remember years ago a friend of the livery running the event judged all 6 in hand classes, funnily enough her friends won each class!

If I ever showed now it would be county level.. never would I do local again.
 

rowan666

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SOME not all local shows are absolutely fixed. I know of one that gives members totally different number cards to non members so they stand out and the judges know who to place, members are ALWAYS placed above non members even if their horse is dog lame, handler has turned up in pyjamas or pony is plaited up in the M&M class
 

Littlebear

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I am not sure how it can be 'fixed' unless the judge used is also at the yard? I judge dressage and every yard/ local show I have done I wouldn't know who is stabled there and who isn't, the same for the showing judges I have met at some of the bigger shows have all been hired from outside? Of course there maybe someone I teach entering but I have to declare if there is.

I am not into showing but my mum has done a lot over the years and whoever doesn't win seems to shout about a fix or a lack of knowledge from the judge. They are supposed to have excellent knowledge of course but if they are doing their best to be fair and I cant believe that they aren't.

In dressage there are strict guidelines about declaring people you have taught so there is a fair playing field - maybe a similar rule in showing needs to be applied if this is the case? I know that arab showing has conflict of interest guidelines so maybe this kind of ruling should be applied at all local shows?
 

Annagain

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It's a DIY yard on an old farm so no fancy facilities, but the riding club is run from the farm too and it really is a case of who you know and not how well you perform.
Are you talking about a show in South Wales? I only ask your description of the venue is familiar and they had a show this weekend but your description of the show (in previous years at least) doesn't chime with me.
 
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When I am judging I judge what is infront of me. Not who is in front of me.

Stallions- in my books - have to behave. A bit of pizazz and hi jinks - whatever so long as they are fully in control. They are too volatile and dangerous - especially with kids around to be genuinely badly behaved.

In-hand classes really are beauty contests. If you have the one who is as close to breed type as possible then it will win over an average one. Ridden classes are slightly different. Yes you have to have a good example of the breed or type but you also have to perform. This is where a lessor horse can beat a better one if the performance is head and shoulders above the rest.

At the end of the day you are paying for someone elses opinion - whether you like it or not.

There are fewer and fewer people willing to judge these days because of social media - and posts like this thread! No one takes a step back to look at their horses these days. They see them as perfect. They think they are the best schooled etc. Take a step back. Does your horse pull or lean on you but you find that normal? Well not only does that look ugly it is also not fun for the ride judge. Is your horse behind the leg or a bit pokey nosed? The judge isn't there to school your horse for you. Do your homework before you hit the ring! Producers win a lot because they are very good at their job! If they weren't they wouldn't have any clients!

Everyone go back and look at your horses. Stand them up. Step back and walk round them inspecting them as though you had never seen it before

Of my lot I can tell you - Jeff - borderline Lightweight Hunter/Riding Horse. Moves well rides ok but a bit in limbo due to being on the cusp.

Gray - I will ignore his racing injuries and jusr go to the bare bones. He is quite upright through his front end. His shoulder isnt actually too bad but he is a bit straight through the knee and has long quite upright pasterns.

Wee Gunmy Bear - she has no bone what so ever!

Go and take a good look at your horses! Really look at them! Get someone to film you doing a mock show class and see what your doing and how your going to improve.

Basically - take off the rose tinted specs and stop being so bitter! Up your game and earn your rosettes! As the old saying goes - rosettes are won at home you just go to shows to pick them up.
 

JFTDWS

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If you have the one who is as close to breed type as possible then it will win over an average one. Ridden classes are slightly different. Yes you have to have a good example of the breed or type but you also have to perform.

If the judge actually lets you perform in your ridden class, and doesn't just ask you to trot 20m on one rein before stroking your horse's legs for 10 minutes and making his decision :p I feel justified in complaining about him, he was a prize twit!
 
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If the judge actually lets you perform in your ridden class, and doesn't just ask you to trot 20m on one rein before stroking your horse's legs for 10 minutes and making his decision :p I feel justified in complaining about him, he was a prize twit!

Well yes! There are obvious exceptions 😂😂😂 I've done my fair share of dodgy classes!
 

JFTDWS

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Well yes! There are obvious exceptions 😂😂😂 I've done my fair share of dodgy classes!

Of course, I don't complain about the time the judge was really taken with a green Fergus and pulled him in first in the ridden class even though he was nowhere near as polished as one of the others :p She did, at least, let us have a canter around and do an individual show before she fell for her natural bias :D :D
 

Peter7917

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I just don't get showing at all. How a pony can be pulled in first in one show and then in the next show against some of the same competition be pulled in dead last. I just cant get my head around it.
 
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I just don't get showing at all. How a pony can be pulled in first in one show and then in the next show against some of the same competition be pulled in dead last. I just cant get my head around it.

Different judge. Different opinion. Different preferences. The first one might like a plain head and straight but not extravagant movement. The next might like them flashier. Same as you might like driving a Ford Ka and someone else might like a Ferrari!
 

conniegirl

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When I am judging I judge what is infront of me. Not who is in front of me.

Stallions- in my books - have to behave. A bit of pizazz and hi jinks - whatever so long as they are fully in control. They are too volatile and dangerous - especially with kids around to be genuinely badly behaved.

In-hand classes really are beauty contests. If you have the one who is as close to breed type as possible then it will win over an average one. Ridden classes are slightly different. Yes you have to have a good example of the breed or type but you also have to perform. This is where a lessor horse can beat a better one if the performance is head and shoulders above the rest.

At the end of the day you are paying for someone elses opinion - whether you like it or not.

There are fewer and fewer people willing to judge these days because of social media - and posts like this thread! No one takes a step back to look at their horses these days. They see them as perfect. They think they are the best schooled etc. Take a step back. Does your horse pull or lean on you but you find that normal? Well not only does that look ugly it is also not fun for the ride judge. Is your horse behind the leg or a bit pokey nosed? The judge isn't there to school your horse for you. Do your homework before you hit the ring! Producers win a lot because they are very good at their job! If they weren't they wouldn't have any clients!

Everyone go back and look at your horses. Stand them up. Step back and walk round them inspecting them as though you had never seen it before

Of my lot I can tell you - Jeff - borderline Lightweight Hunter/Riding Horse. Moves well rides ok but a bit in limbo due to being on the cusp.

Gray - I will ignore his racing injuries and jusr go to the bare bones. He is quite upright through his front end. His shoulder isnt actually too bad but he is a bit straight through the knee and has long quite upright pasterns.

Wee Gunmy Bear - she has no bone what so ever!

Go and take a good look at your horses! Really look at them! Get someone to film you doing a mock show class and see what your doing and how your going to improve.

Basically - take off the rose tinted specs and stop being so bitter! Up your game and earn your rosettes! As the old saying goes - rosettes are won at home you just go to shows to pick them up.

This exactly!

My current lad: bare bones he is very well put together, maybe a bit long in the back but for a welshie his trot is a bit lack luster, probably due to my riding tbh. He also lacks a bit of topline and his arse needs a bit of work but finding a hill round here is like finding rocking horse poo.
 

Peter7917

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Different judge. Different opinion. Different preferences. The first one might like a plain head and straight but not extravagant movement. The next might like them flashier. Same as you might like driving a Ford Ka and someone else might like a Ferrari!

But then whats the point of it? Isnt it to show that your horse is the best? If nobody agrees on what the best is then I don't get what the achievement is.
 
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That's where personal preference comes into it. If everyone liked the same thing the whole world would be very vanilla! If every judge liked the same thing you would never bother showing because pne horse would win everything.

The horse may have had an off day and performed badly. Some judges will forgive a minor, quickly changed wrong leg as rider error another may heavily penalise it.

Figure out what judges work best for you and avoid the ones that don't!

I show a standard skewbald shetland stallion - I have a list of judges that I wont show under and thats longer than the list of ones I would! And that is purely down to his colour - he isn't black basically!
 
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