Are some horses just always tense in dressage phase

[almostthere]

Ok - I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall with my (otherwise) gorgeous mare and it is breaking my heart/driving me insane, so I am looking for other experiences.
Brief background - 10yr old WB mare. Had only showjumped before I got her, and I knew flatwork was non-existent - think duck walk, short and choppy and very tight through her back by being "held" back on her hocks by a man. Spent ages (a year at least) undoing previous incorrect muscling, physio almost lived with me but now we are two years on and physically she is the in the best shape she has ever being and still I have one good schooling session in 10 and have NEVER undertaken a dressage test without "tense" being the predominant word . I have tried other riders on her - a gentle pro eventer and a GP dressage rider - and whilst they obviously got slightly better marks than me (although not much) both got the "T" word so not just me . We have tried taking her out regularly to just dressage to try and bore her, we have tried going to a comp but just using the arena as a schooling session (at the end of the class). None of these have made any difference.
Before anyone asks - she has MTM saddles that are regularly checked, her teeth are done 6mthly, she has regular physio from qualified physio and sports massage once a month. She has been bone scanned (results "near perfect") and has had a full lameness work up with x rays, not that she ever showed any lameness but I was trying to rule out the tension through the back was coming from anywhere else. NOTHING wrong with her physically. She did have ulcers from before I got her but these have been treated and she is still regularly scoped to check they haven't returned and they haven't.
She is fed chaff and a lo-cal balancer and a calmer, hay and has plenty of turn out. She will only accept a rubber bit and so is ridden in a Nathe straight bar.
I event her - she is awesome xc (even though she hadn't ever done any xc before I got her) and a little opinionated sjing (she knows what she is doing) but we usually get 4f because she is so careful despite the opinions. She is incredibly easy on the ground at home and at events. My kids can handle her safely and she is fab to hack alone and in company.
BUT the bad days are truly awful...by example Friday she schooled beautifully, Sat I rode her at exactly the same time of day and she spent a good deal of her time on her hind legs. Believe me, I am the first person to call a vet but I genuinely don't think she is in pain...BUT I don't know what else to try. I have had two dressage trainers who have said she is the trickiest horse they have ever ridden and they both said I am just going to have to accept that she will never be consistent in the dressage phase and I either accept that or move her on.
Everyone always says " you can always improve the dressage" but I am beginning to think we defy that rule so - am I just going to have to accept that I am just not good enough for her or do I send her to boot camp or.....???Any ideas good people???

 

[almostthere]

Oh and I forgot to add she is on Regumate so not hormones...

 

[be positive]

You only have to look at the horses competing at the very top level to see that some horses never relax in the dressage phase, even ones with the best riders in the world remain more tense than desired, I think you can improve them and gain a few extra marks but you are never going to change what is either a natural way of going or trained into them at an early age, you are working with a mare, they can be sensitive at the best of times, that had incorrect basic training and despite all your efforts she may never be relaxed about something she still finds difficult.
I suppose it depends on what level you are competing at now as to what is the best direction to take, my view would probably be different depending on where you are and where you aim to be in the next year or two.

 

[almostthere]

You only have to look at the horses competing at the very top level to see that some horses never relax in the dressage phase, even ones with the best riders in the world remain more tense than desired, I think you can improve them and gain a few extra marks but you are never going to change what is either a natural way of going or trained into them at an early age, you are working with a mare, they can be sensitive at the best of times, that had incorrect basic training and despite all your efforts she may never be relaxed about something she still finds difficult.
I suppose it depends on what level you are competing at now as to what is the best direction to take, my view would probably be different depending on where you are and where you aim to be in the next year or two.

Thank you - yes listening to Badminton radio on Friday I heard "tense" quite a few times but that is at Advanced Medium level and really I would just like to get a relaxed Prelim level out of her To answer your question, we only event to BE90 and I have no ambition to go further. I would LOVE to get to Grassroots but as you know to qualify it is a dressage competition at many venues and so whilst I have every confidence that she has the talent to jump around the Championship course, I don't think we will ever qualify. It is just so frustrating as whilst she is no Valegro, she does (now) have nice paces and if she just relaxed I genuinely believe she could do very well indeed. She is always looking for the complication where there is none...I really only want her to walk, trot and canter in a circle....

 

[Casey76]

What is she like to school whilst hacking?

 

[almostthere]

What is she like to school whilst hacking?

Ohh...good question....I admit I don't do too much as I try to treat hacking as downtime/fittening work but whilst she is definitely less stressed I wouldn't say she is any more consistent out hacking

 

[only_me]

It could be that she is finding her work too easy and she doesn't have to think about it, so instead she starts to focus on things outside arena that may cause her to tense up.
I've generally found that if I ask a horse to do tougher exercises or teaching them more difficult/advanced movements brings the focus back onto you and makes them concentrate, which can have added effect of reducing tension. but I've mostly only worked with geldings.

I did once ride a mare that can only be described as a nightmare her head was stuck in the air and her muscles were so tight you could have bounced off them lol. I had to do a dressage test on her and she actually started to relax through the test as I kept my hands low but still and kept very still in saddle - even managed to get a correct outline. I still feel it was the best test I've ever ridden as I actually rode the horse instead of the test! Although I think I had accepted that we weren't going to do well so I took pressure off myself (I was riding at an international competition as an invited rider lol) Which made me concentrate more on the mare. I can still recall the feeling I got as she started to accept me and listened to what I was asking


What makes her tense dressage? Is it the other horses playing up around her (there is always one lunatic bronking about) or is it doing dressage on grass? Is it maybe you being nervous and tensing up because you think she is going to do the same? Identify cause before fixing

 

[Golden_Match_II]

I'm afraid it is difficult to change their personalities - over the years I have had a couple of stressy mares in the dressage and know how frustrating it can be.

If I were you I'd have lots of flatwork lessons. I found more complicated movements like lateral work (leg yield, shoulder in, teavers, half pass) really helped mine calm down and focus on the job in hand. My mare who evented to Intermediate was a lot less tense doing an Intermediate test than a Novice test. Lessons definitely helped me learnt to ride them through the tension and get the best out of them.

 

[almostthere]

It could be that she is finding her work too easy and she doesn't have to think about it, so instead she starts to focus on things outside arena that may cause her to tense up.
I've generally found that if I ask a horse to do tougher exercises or teaching them more difficult/advanced movements brings the focus back onto you and makes them concentrate, which can have added effect of reducing tension. but I've mostly only worked with geldings.

I did once ride a mare that can only be described as a nightmare her head was stuck in the air and her muscles were so tight you could have bounced off them lol. I had to do a dressage test on her and she actually started to relax through the test as I kept my hands low but still and kept very still in saddle - even managed to get a correct outline. I still feel it was the best test I've ever ridden as I actually rode the horse instead of the test! Although I think I had accepted that we weren't going to do well so I took pressure off myself (I was riding at an international competition as an invited rider lol) Which made me concentrate more on the mare. I can still recall the feeling I got as she started to accept me and listened to what I was asking


What makes her tense dressage? Is it the other horses playing up around her (there is always one lunatic bronking about) or is it doing dressage on grass? Is it maybe you being nervous and tensing up because you think she is going to do the same? Identify cause before fixing

Interesting...she is a very clever mare...Adam Kemp described her as being "bright enough to argue but bright enough to learn too" and a number of people have said the same as you if she had more to think about then she might relax into it but I discussed it with Adam and whilst he appreciates the approach, having seen her he said she first needs to relax with the basics before trying to put the pressure on of more difficult moves. I had one instructor who insisted that she should learn counter canter because it would aid her suppleness BUT this is a horse that was taught flying changes at 4 and so to her counter canter was a nightmare (as was the resulting meltdown). We didn't go back
I honestly don't think it is me who is the cause of the tension...I admit I may be tense but far better (and less emotionally involved) people than me have tried as I said above and she is still tense.
And I completely agree...identifying the cause is key but that is why I am banging my head up against a brick wall . She is not bothered by warm-ups or other horses, she doesn't mind grass or a surface (she is very balanced), and I don't thinks she finds it physically difficult - but in her mind she holds her breath..I just don't know how to convince her that there really is nothing complicated here!
Thanks guys...just writing it all out is helping....

 

[almostthere]

I'm afraid it is difficult to change their personalities - over the years I have had a couple of stressy mares in the dressage and know how frustrating it can be.

If I were you I'd have lots of flatwork lessons. I found more complicated movements like lateral work (leg yield, shoulder in, teavers, half pass) really helped mine calm down and focus on the job in hand. My mare who evented to Intermediate was a lot less tense doing an Intermediate test than a Novice test. Lessons definitely helped me learnt to ride them through the tension and get the best out of them.

Thank you! I do have regular flat lessons and as I said below we have tried the more complicated movements...of the three instructors we have had they have all said her lateral work is great - and with the right mindset she could go Advanced Medium easily. But Adam feels that she needs to be more relaxed with the basics first. Maybe...I am just not good enough to help her on her journey?

 

[ihatework]

I think if Adam is saying that then it's worth believing him and sticking with it because he is flexible in his methods and wouldn't be one to say that about any horse.

I have an intelligent mare that is prone to tension - Adam works her completely differently to yours - the bulk of her work is the trickier stuff, loads of lateral work very early. Then the last 15 mins putting together finishing touches on the simple stuff.

I don't think you can change the fundamental personality of a horse. You learn to work with what you have to optimise performance.

Don't underestimate what mild discomfort can impact on a way of going. It's worth keeping that in the back of your mind too.

 

[almostthere]

I think if Adam is saying that then it's worth believing him and sticking with it because he is flexible in his methods and wouldn't be one to say that about any horse.

I have an intelligent mare that is prone to tension - Adam works her completely differently to yours - the bulk of her work is the trickier stuff, loads of lateral work very early. Then the last 15 mins putting together finishing touches on the simple stuff.

I don't think you can change the fundamental personality of a horse. You learn to work with what you have to optimise performance.

Don't underestimate what mild discomfort can impact on a way of going. It's worth keeping that in the back of your mind too.

Thank you! Interesting that he works the two horses differently - perhaps he just sees you as being better equipped to deal with it than me and we don't get to see him very often as he is soooo far away I hear what you say about personality and discomfort. Thank you again for taking the time to respond...I think I probably have to accept that she will always be like this and I need to accept her for what she is (whilst still continuing to make sure she is in the best physical state possible) or I need to find her a better rider than me.

 

[ihatework]

It might be you, it might not be you - I know I can certainly impact my horses tension. But whatever horse you have you will run into training problems, so no being defeatist!! You'll get there 😀

Have you had anyone else ride her? It might be worth paying a decent pro to school her a bit and see what they think

 

[Golden_Match_II]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it's you, if you get into the mindset that it's you and that you can't do it then you'll be fighting a losing battle!

It's interesting your instructor says that about lateral work. I have been taught to warm up without any for 10-15mins, but then use it to soften her as an exercise, rather than trying to get it to a test standard. When you say she's good at it, does she feel more supple and consistent in the mouth having done it? If that is the case then I would use it as a training aid. My mare found the basics (paces improved, transitions better, steadier contact, flexion softer) much easier once she had let go across her back by doing some leg yield.

ETA: you say you have 3 flatwork instructors - if I were you I would stick to one and just be super super consistent in your training methods both at home and in lessons

 

[almostthere]

It might be you, it might not be you - I know I can certainly impact my horses tension. But whatever horse you have you will run into training problems, so no being defeatist!! You'll get there ��

Have you had anyone else ride her? It might be worth paying a decent pro to school her a bit and see what they think

I always blame myself first!
Yes - have had local dressage pro school her for a good while (he also competed her) and whilst a kind rider I think the constant requirement to "be correct" (ie much firmer than me) blew her mind and she eventually started going up with him a lot to the point HE lost confidence in her. He said she is "one of the trickiest horses he has ever sat on". That's when I had all the tests done and when clear started seeing Adam.... I am toying with the idea of sending her to a pro event rider I know who is sympathetic and has competed her for me at eventing from time to time. Maybe a more structured (with less pressure) boot camp would help...although I still need to figure out how to ride her myself eventually....
Thanks again...

 

[ihatework]

Tricky. She definitely sounds like one who likes to call the shots! And if she is as bad/worse with pros on then I doubt it's you.

Out of interest have you tried her in a micklem and/or a bit less bridle?

I really do think you can always improve things, but with this type you probably have to think outside the box a bit and also accept you will have bad days. Where abouts are you based?

 

[Barnacle]

I think you can solve this relaxation issue very easily if you just forget about dressage for a moment and start doing lots of relaxed flatwork on a loose rein - and I mean go right back to basics. Walk on a loose rein, trot on a loose rein, canter on a loose rein. Transitions. Then start circles once she is relaxed doing those. Only worry about how she holds herself once she's got that down and focus on adjusting gaits first, then some lateral work. Take lots of breaks, letting her stand quietly every now and then. And keep the sessions short. Might take days, might take weeks... But it seems to me your current attempts to get her to relax are still too much within the boundaries of what you expect her to do in competition and it seems that's not working - so step back even further. Once she can do those things, challenge her by introducing a few trotting poles or even some small jumps in the middle of the session so she gets a tiny bit more excited and then work her on the flat again. I think you're really just asking for a little too much of a horse that is already set in its ways. If you go back a few steps and build it up again, you'll get better results.

 

[almostthere]

Tricky. She definitely sounds like one who likes to call the shots! And if she is as bad/worse with pros on then I doubt it's you.

Out of interest have you tried her in a micklem and/or a bit less bridle?

I really do think you can always improve things, but with this type you probably have to think outside the box a bit and also accept you will have bad days. Where abouts are you based?

Yes she is definitely a mare you "ask" rather than "tell". She is in a Micklem and I definitely saw an improvement since she has been in that and I think you are right - I am going to have to accept that she is not going to be the same horse that I get out of the stable every day . I am in Berkshire/Hampshire borders. Thank you again for taking the time - I really appreciate it.

 

[almostthere]

I think you can solve this relaxation issue very easily if you just forget about dressage for a moment and start doing lots of relaxed flatwork on a loose rein - and I mean go right back to basics. Walk on a loose rein, trot on a loose rein, canter on a loose rein. Transitions. Then start circles once she is relaxed doing those. Only worry about how she holds herself once she's got that down and focus on adjusting gaits first, then some lateral work. Take lots of breaks, letting her stand quietly every now and then. And keep the sessions short. Might take days, might take weeks... But it seems to me your current attempts to get her to relax are still too much within the boundaries of what you expect her to do in competition and it seems that's not working - so step back even further. Once she can do those things, challenge her by introducing a few trotting poles or even some small jumps in the middle of the session so she gets a tiny bit more excited and then work her on the flat again. I think you're really just asking for a little too much of a horse that is already set in its ways. If you go back a few steps and build it up again, you'll get better results.

Thank you...I completely understand what you are saying and believe me I have done everything I can to make her understand that to "chill" is not a bad thing. When I got her she was "on a mission" all the time at warp speed. Now we can hack on the buckle and she will stand still when I get on until I am ready to go. I had a flat lesson last night with Nick Gauntlett and we used some of what you have suggested above (without me having read it first!). It's not easy though - when I got her she had no concept at all of "long and low" despite being age 8 and one instructor said she was almost terrified of being "down there". It really has been one of the hardest things I have achieved with her...everybody (not you - I understand what you are saying but generally) blithely throws around the phrase "work her long and low" but to a horse that has the body of an 8yr old (when I got her) with a 3yr old education that is really tough . She is much much better now as her muscles have all formed correctly and she can really stretch through when she tries. It is a bit of a leap of faith though - riding her on a long rein especially at a pace above walk is tricky. Some of our canters resembled the "Wall of Death" initially last night but we did get some nice relaxed work at the end so I think it is very much a work in progress. Thank you again!

 

[almostthere]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it's you, if you get into the mindset that it's you and that you can't do it then you'll be fighting a losing battle!

It's interesting your instructor says that about lateral work. I have been taught to warm up without any for 10-15mins, but then use it to soften her as an exercise, rather than trying to get it to a test standard. When you say she's good at it, does she feel more supple and consistent in the mouth having done it? If that is the case then I would use it as a training aid. My mare found the basics (paces improved, transitions better, steadier contact, flexion softer) much easier once she had let go across her back by doing some leg yield.

ETA: you say you have 3 flatwork instructors - if I were you I would stick to one and just be super super consistent in your training methods both at home and in lessons

Thank you for responding. I know - I am my own worst critic but then I am a work in progress too . Just to clarify - I don't chop and change instructors - I have had 3 flatwork instructors simply through circumstances - one wanted me to put too much pressure on her because he thought she was "taking the p***" - that's not my style so we stopped seeing him - the other two are Adam who I don't see very often and another who comes to my yard every week but understands Adam's view and works in the same way. I train with Nick G showjumping and last night had a flat lesson with him as my regular instructor is away.

 

[almostthere]

I just wanted to say thank you very much to all of you who have replied. Just going through all the suggestions and replying has helped enormously . For one thing it has made me realise that we HAVE come a long way and that she may be a different horse each day and some of those days we may not exactly see eye to eye but she is an awesome jumper and I think I would much rather have a horse that may be in the bottom 10 after dressage but who enjoys the jumping (and is careful) so we both finish with a smile on our faces. Now I just need to hold that thought
Thank you again!

 

[Pigeon]

Will she school out on hacks?

Also try cantering on a loose rein around the edge of the arena until she starts to relax down. Even if it takes about 10 mins

I have the same problem with my lad, and it really does seem to be linked to his tummy problems. He also has ulcers and we're finding them hard to kick. Is she better if you feed her before you ride? That has always really helped mine (especially if you put something like Equishure in the feed) - even if it's not ulcers she might have high acidity in her stomach causing pain.