Are some horses naturally ribby?

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Jacob was put on the weightbridge at 734kg the other week, and the lady said she would like him to be around 760kg and that he is slightly underconditioned as he has quite visible ribs - she gave him a 2.25/5 body score.

Now he definitely isn't overweight but when he stands without his abs engaged he is starting to get quite the belly but yet his ribs are still quite visible a lot of the time. I really don't want him overtopped as I am always concious about any additional strain on his legs. He is out on good grass, has truly ad lib hay when in and 2 x feeds a day so he is definitely putting it away!

So are some horses just built that way and are prone to looking a little more ribby looking?

Sorry for the rubbish photos (he is the horse behind in the grooming one).

 

[Ruftysdad]

My horse has always been ribby since I bought him. He is fine everywhere else. He has got Cushings and on Prascend but no improvement. He is 27 now and I have given up worrying. My pragmatic vet said if there was anything serious he would be dead by now!

 

[Nudibranch]

I have a big, wide barrelled Fell who starts to show rib when "slim", even when she still has a gutter down her backside and nearly a crest. (Tbf she is borderline EMS.) I've had a couple of TBs who show ribs very quickly too, even when the rest of them is covered nicely.
It's hard to tell on your photos but is he showing some hip too? What's his neck like?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I have a big, wide barrelled Fell who starts to show rib when "slim", even when she still has a gutter down her backside and nearly a crest. (Tbf she is borderline EMS.) I've had a couple of TBs who show ribs very quickly too, even when the rest of them is covered nicely.
It's hard to tell on your photos but is he showing some hip too? What's his neck like?

He doesn’t have a huge barrel which is why I am wondering about him. Have attached a couple of other photos. His neck needs more muscle, as does his back end, but I don’t think he looks poor.

 

[ycbm]

Yes.

And a horse of his size is better slightly ribby than even slightly fat, imo. We are far too used to not being able to see horses ribs these days.

.

 

[LiquidMetal]

Yes and I agree for big horses, it’s better to be a little on the thin side. I am like that myself. My ribs always show a bit. They’re the last place I put on weight so I know if they get covered, I’m too fat!

My TB had a very prominent rib cage when I first got him which was a combo of underweight and poor posture. He’s received a lot of PEMF therapy which has helped immensely with the poor posture and muscle imbalances he had from life on the track and his ribs have become much less noticeable as he holds his body better now.

 

[SusieT]

For me he looks too poor and I would wonder if he is underlying healthy, that is too much rib and a slightly pot belly to me.

 

[ihatework]

I don’t object to a rib but for me he is on the poor and under muscled side.

When you say he gets 2 hard feeds, what does that mean - what feed and what weight of feed?

He’s a huge horse. It might just be a case of he needs more/better grub.

 

[Goldenstar]

Ribs are the Holy grail of the Irish Draught owner .

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

To my eye he looks a little poor. While I'd sooner see a ribby horse than a fat one I think I'd want a little more weight and muscle on him. I can imagine it's a hard balance with such a big horse x

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

The pot belly is because he has just gone onto a previously rested field for better grass, he has been on it two weeks now but that photo was from the second day on it. He comes in for about 4-6 hours a day and has as much hay as he will eat, and he also gets a 2/3 stubbs scoop of kwikbeet, 1 Baileys measuring cup of Coolstance Copra, and a double handful of readigrass. *edited to add he also has Limestone Powder and Protexin for his gut.

The muscle side of things I completely agree with, he is undermuscled but that is a work in progress. He has only really been in 'full' work since mid-Jan and he is a sizeable chap so this will take time.

I am trialling a sarcoid friendly diet which means excluding linseed, rapeseed, flax, soy/a, and wheatfeed - so this makes it tricky to 'feed him up' so to speak.

The three attached photos were from my clinic today (please excuse my riding) and a walk last week.. I took a few photos on the walk, in one you can see ribs, you cannot in another so it's tricky. I have purposefully chosen ribby photos above, but he definitely doesn't always have them as evident.

 

[ihatework]

Well he doesn’t look so ribby/poor in those but he is definitely lacking topline muscle.

Given what you are feeding (or rather not feeding for a horse of his size) I think that’s your answer to be honest.

 

[milliepops]

It doesn't seem like a lot of feed given his size. If you dont want to change it, can you up him to more feeds?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I think that because the kwikbeet soaks up so much water it looks like a much bigger feed than it truly is so I need to think more about the dry weight amount - I will feed him whatever he needs, it isn't a cost saving exercise, I just find it tricky with him to figure out what is due to the big lack of muscle and what is a result of needing a little more condition.

I'll try increasing his Copra to a Stubbs scoop, and I will hunt for a conditioning type feed that doesn't have those ingredients in. Or perhaps I'll try adding in Alfalfa pellets.

 

[TPO]

Why are you feeding what you're feeding?It doesnt seem to be calorie dense or that high in protein (aware work not diet develops topline but horses still need the building blocks).

You maybe didn't mention it but theres no vit/mins in those feedstuffs so if that hasn't been addressed there maybe some deficiencies especially if hes only just gone onto "good" grass.

 

[Cortez]

How old is he? And how tall? I think he looks fine - nice to see a horse that isn't an absolute pudding - but not fit, as in hard muscle.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Why are you feeding what you're feeding?It doesnt seem to be calorie dense or that high in protein (aware work not diet develops topline but horses still need the building blocks).

You maybe didn't mention it but theres no vit/mins in those feedstuffs so if that hasn't been addressed there maybe some deficiencies especially if hes only just gone onto "good" grass.

I am limited by the ingredients I am trying to exlude above, everything seems to have Linseed Oil or the like in it! I am also concious that I don't really want too much quick release energy - so went for the kwikbeet as it's high in fibre, and the Copra because it's ulcer friendly and high in fat as it's coconut meal. The readigrass was just because it is literally the only chaff like feed I could find which excluded the above; I am thinking that when this is finished I may change it to Agrobs Green Oat Chaff if I can get hold of it. He does also have a Kentucky Joint Supplement and Equimins powder, I just didn't mention it before as I wasn't sure it was relevant to what that poster asked.

How old is he? And how tall? I think he looks fine - nice to see a horse that isn't an absolute pudding - but not fit, as in hard muscle.

He is 10yo and 19hh. Prior to me purchasing him he hadn't done much at all for a couple of years so needs a lot of building up muscle wise. I'm pleased that you would be happy with his current condition, it's interesting that there is such a difference in opinion.

 

[doodle]

He is 10yo and 19hh. .

Wow! How do you get on him and transport him?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Wow! How do you get on him and transport him?

He is high withered so if I am being pedantic his back is only about 18.2hh - He is a 7ft in rug so not super huge and travels in a tall 3.5t or a normal 7.5t with an additional angle to the partitions if he is herringbone. He also fits compfortably in an Ifor 511. Getting on is another matter - I can't get on from the floor but I am otherwise pretty springy. I can get on from any normal mounting block/lorry steps - I have done a lot of work on lining up to be mounted from things, so that comes in handy!

 

[Cortez]

He is 10yo and 19hh. Prior to me purchasing him he hadn't done much at all for a couple of years so needs a lot of building up muscle wise. I'm pleased that you would be happy with his current condition, it's interesting that there is such a difference in opinion.

Yeah, I thought he looked huge! It is very difficult to keep these giant horses sound - I've only ever known two others over 18h and they both ended up lame. It is vital that you don't get him too fat!!! His joints won't be able to cope. He looks healthy, if you'd like a bit more cover I would suggest finding a feed with a bit more protein (protein won't make him fat, but it may help with the building blocks of muscle).

PS. I rode an 18.1h gelding and never once attempted to get on from the ground. I also broke a 19h youngster who sadly was never sound enough to progress for his owner and had to be PTS at 5 with massive OCD problems.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Yeah, I thought he looked huge! It is very difficult to keep these giant horses sound - I've only ever known two others over 18h and they both ended up lame. It is vital that you don't get him too fat!!! His joints won't be able to cope. He looks healthy, if you'd like a bit more cover I would suggest finding a feed with a bit more protein (protein won't make him fat, but it may help with the building blocks of muscle).

PS. I rode an 18.1h gelding and never once attempted to get on from the ground. I also broke a 19h youngster who sadly was never sound enough to progress for his owner and had to be PTS at 5 with massive OCD problems.

I know that the Alfalfa is high in protein so I may add some pellets into his feed and see how he looks, he has definitely put on condition from when I first bought him, and he isn't dropping so I am not too urgently concerned - but I appreciate all the comments on this thread and will be paying attention.

I wouldn't try to get on from the ground so agree with you there, I wouldn't want to put that much strain on his back as it's too high to be quick, well for me anyway! Unfortunately I am all too aware that big horses tend to break as you have experienced, which is why I can tend towards micro-managing him to some extent. You never see a 19hh 20yo, and there's a reason for that. I bought him for very little for a few reasons, and I've learnt a lot from him already so he owes me nothing - I have his retirement completely planned out, whenever that may be.

 

[milliepops]

TPO reminded me of a good post by Clare MacLeod (nutritionist) on FB about how copra isn't as good a source of protein as it may seem.
David Marlin did a bit of analysis of amino acids needed for muscle building such as lysine and oats came out pretty well (since you don't want linseed). Is that an option?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

TPO reminded me of a good post by Clare MacLeod (nutritionist) on FB about how copra isn't as good a source of protein as it may seem.
David Marlin did a bit of analysis of amino acids needed for muscle building such as lysine and oats came out pretty well (since you don't want linseed). Is that an option?

That's interesting re: the Copra! I will give that a Google. I did look into oats, but to be completely honest I was put off by the rap they get for being a rocket-fuel feed; maybe I need to suck it up and give them a try. Kentucky Equine Research have an interesting study on the composition of whole oats vs hull-less oats.

 

[milliepops]

I have fed oats to quite a few horses and personally I don't think the rocket fuel thing is true.

 

[TPO]

Hopefully this works...

https://www.facebook.com/159465727427399/posts/4108563682517564

Oats didnt make my TB sharp/fire breathing and helped keep condition on when wintering out one year. I soaked them first and fed as a top dressing.

Out of interest what is a sarcoid friendly diet? Do you have links to any papers about it? I have one with a tiny tiny one (was previously bigger and also another elsewhere. One totally disappeared and the other left me with a tiny spec that hasnt changed size in 5yrs <touch wood>) so if there was some way of future proofing him I'd be interested.

 

[Reri1826]

My old boy was 18.1 and a very similar shape (he was longer though and would have a 7ft 6 rug if I could get them!) keeping/getting weight on him was hard work, especially if we were at a yard with poorer grazing.

I found grass nuts and linseed to be the best for him, but if you’re avoiding linseed maybe try just the grass nuts. I also used the Rowan Barbary mashes which worked really well for him.

I would always ask the vet what he thought about his weight and would always be told he would much rather see him on the leaner side than too heavy.

I think you have a lovely boy, a little tweak with his feed to allow him to build a bit more muscle maybe, but I wouldn’t worry too much.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Out of interest what is a sarcoid friendly diet? Do you have links to any papers about it? I have one with a tiny tiny one (was previously bigger and also another elsewhere. One totally disappeared and the other left me with a tiny spec that hasnt changed size in 5yrs <touch wood>) so if there was some way of future proofing him I'd be interested.

I have sent you a message with an explanation - thank you for the article. You learn something new everyday!

My old boy was 18.1 and a very similar shape (he was longer though and would have a 7ft 6 rug if I could get them!) keeping/getting weight on him was hard work, especially if we were at a yard with poorer grazing.

I found grass nuts and linseed to be the best for him, but if you’re avoiding linseed maybe try just the grass nuts. I also used the Rowan Barbary mashes which worked really well for him.

I would always ask the vet what he thought about his weight and would always be told he would much rather see him on the leaner side than too heavy.

I think you have a lovely boy, a little tweak with his feed to allow him to build a bit more muscle maybe, but I wouldn’t worry too much.

This is reassuring, thank you. I will have a look at those mashes, I haven't heard of them before. I went for the readigrass over the grass nuts as the nuts soak down and I would then have had three sloppy feeds mixed, and he isn't keep on this without something chaff like to bind it together but this is definintely an option I will look into once the Readigrass runs out.

 

[honetpot]

I have a field of fat ponies, apart from one who from a distance looks under weight, because you can see his ribs and his spine.If you all body condition score the him he is well covered every where else, to get his ribs covered he becomes grossly overweight and has a thick heavy crest hidden by an even thicker mane. He was a feral pony,he may have a bit of arab in him but he is a very odd shape.
I think there is a confirmation element which you can not ignore, the under lying structure and how the muscles are attached define the body shape. Fat has always been used to cover poor confirmation in showing. Being slightly under weight is not likely to cause problems but being over weight in a horse, even more so in ponies, is likely to cause issues.
Its a big horse so to eat the amount of forage to maintain his body weight could be just lack of eating time/poor quality forage, for him. The opposite from what normally happens with fat ponies.
https://thehorse.com/151332/pasture-grass-the-healthy-choice/
If you are going to feed anything check the digestible energy per kg, because just by giving a different grass nut or conditioning feed you can increase the calorie intake without making the amount needed larger.

 

[Bob notacob]

I have a field of fat ponies, apart from one who from a distance looks under weight, because you can see his ribs and his spine.If you all body condition score the him he is well covered every where else, to get his ribs covered he becomes grossly overweight and has a thick heavy crest hidden by an even thicker mane. He was a feral pony,he may have a bit of arab in him but he is a very odd shape.
I think there is a confirmation element which you can not ignore, the under lying structure and how the muscles are attached define the body shape. Fat has always been used to cover poor confirmation in showing. Being slightly under weight is not likely to cause problems but being over weight in a horse, even more so in ponies, is likely to cause issues.
Its a big horse so to eat the amount of forage to maintain his body weight could be just lack of eating time/poor quality forage, for him. The opposite from what normally happens with fat ponies.
https://thehorse.com/151332/pasture-grass-the-healthy-choice/
If you are going to feed anything check the digestible energy per kg, because just by giving a different grass nut or conditioning feed you can increase the calorie intake without making the amount needed larger.

Yes he is not carrying fat to hide a lack of muscle mass .I would want him on a good balancer meal . I like the heygates one personaly. Its all about the ballance of amino acids in the protein rather than just the protein content.

 

[Caol Ila]

My 27 year old 16/1hh Shire/TBx looks a lot like your boy. I'm freaking about seeing a wee bit of rib but my vet isn't. She's still in full work (ish... less dressage, more hacking), but given her age, I'm in a chronic state of losing my sh**t.