Are tendon/ligament injuries more common.....

[pinkcatkin]

now that more horses are worked on surfaces?

In the "old days" we all used to spend weeks walking our horses on the roads to get their legs "hardened" for winter work, i.e.hunting. Few people had synthetic surfaces and schooling happened in fields.

I was just wondering whether horses are more prone to tendon and ligament problems these days - is it that many are worked on surfaces and therefore when they do any tough work such as eventing, they break down easier? Do we do less road work and therefore the tendons and ligaments are softer?

Just wondered what your views were on this?

 

[peanut]

Don't know the answer but interesting thought. Shall be following this thread.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Had this conversation a few weeks ago with a senior BSJA course builder. He thought this type of injury was becomming more common due to horses spending far more time on 'surfaces' than they used to.

 

[beaconhorse]

Not sure about surfaces on their own but the fact a lot of people don't harden tendons etc could well be a reason.

studies show that horses in the Uk suffer more from tendon/ligament injuries due to soft going while horses in the US suffer more bone inuries

 

[happy_talk]

Or, are we now better at diagnosing with equipment and facilities more widely available?

 

[Theresa_F]

I also wonder that as we have all the new treatments that horses that would have been pts in earlier days now go on to recover and breed - thereby increasing the amount of horses with that weakness.

I never use boots on my horses unless doing XC over 2'6. Chancer is just starting schooling and I don't use or plan to use any boots for protection - he is a sensible little cob.

I am also hacking him out - including a little gentle trot along the lane on concrete to toughen him up.

 

[Nats_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
Or, are we now better at diagnosing with equipment and facilities more widely available?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats an interesting thought - its like people saying there is more cancer now then there ever used to be, probably about the same but we can actually diagnose it now. My favourite is when older people say there are more gays then there used to be in their time - no, just more people willing to admit it.

I wouldn't say I purposely do roadwork to strengthen tendons but do include it in my actual fitness regime. Does the fact that a lot of people wrap their horses in cotton wool and often keep them in a stable for long periods of time not help either? Or, like some I know, constantly have their horses in bandages/boots whether in, out or riding not help either?

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

There has been little to no research done on the long term effects of jumping, schooling horses on synthetic surfaces. I believe that in Holland there is some research being caried out but has not reported yet.

 

[Maia]

I don't think it is something that you can pin-point to just one factor - it is a very interesting subject though!

I think the availability of surfaces definately has its detriment; whether that is due to the material properties of the surface or the increase in its use for schooling is another matter. I do beleive that far more people now have schools so spend longer in them and consequently their horses aren't as fit and aren't as exposed to different terrains as they were years ago. Tendon injuries occur when the tendon is loaded beyond its elastic limit and I personally think that this is often the case when a horse loses its footing and is unable to rebalance itself quick enough, putting too much strain on the tendon in the process. It is my opinion that hacking/working over lots of different terrains improves the horses reaction and balance when a slip/trip occurs.

As someone else has said it is also entirely possible that medical advances and public awareness of tendon injuries has increased the likely hood of an injury being detected that years ago would have gone unmissed. BUT I do think we have to question whether we actually find problems with our horses that aren't actually problems. For example 9/10 horses will have arthritic chnages (i.e. arthritis) in there fetlock joints but only perhaps 1/100 horses will be lame or allow the arthritic changes to effect their "use". I would love to know if you scanned 100 clinically sound horses tendons how many would be considered "abnormal" - I suspect atleast half of them! So perhaps we are detecting problems which aren't really any cause for concern? If we're talking about total breakdown or a fatal injury then the diagnosis will not have changed in the last 20 or so years so I'm not sure for these types of injury we could refer to medical improvment in diagnostics.

On a different note, I would be interested to see what the ratio of sport horses with tendon/lig injuries is to your bog average pony? From purely anecdotal evidence it would appear that very few ponies have tendon/lig injuries compared to the number of horses with them and I wonder why? Do we push horses more (although some ponies are often quite unfit for the demands placed on them - how many ponies do you know that complete a week of PC camp when they are lucky to get ridden twice a week and not for 4 hours a day!) or is it a genetic factor (in which case are we breeding horses that have a "bad gene") or is it that actually, if scanned, there are the same number of ponies with legions on their tendons/ligs than horses but since ponies get passed around/used less/worth less these legions just go undetected and infact seem no worse for wear despite it?

Very interesting thoughs for disscussion!

 

[emma_lg]

Very interesting thoughts above on this...
I had a similar conversation recently...most leg ailments were put down to 'navicular' but now due to more research and technical advances...far more diagnoses are made to a specific injury with targeted treatment and good outcomes.
As to the surfaces topic...definitely good one to have a think over eh!!!

 

[pinkcatkin]

Interesting Maia. I had a NF pony when I was a kid and worked him extremely hard, we didn't have a trailer or a horse box and I used to hack him everywhere, PC rallies, hunting, shows, and one to a cross country which was 11 miles away. He never had one day off due to lameness.

I think it is a very interesting topic and I think there should be some serious research into it.

 

[Alibear]

Well the article in the latest BD mag blames the riders and surfaces for PSD being so common now a days.

Can't say I agree.

 

[Marchtime]

I'm with happy_talk on this one. I think it's got a lot more to do with the fact that we have better diagnostic techniques. Had lots of conversations with my vet regarding diagnosis. He said what are now diagnosed as ligaments problems within the foot was previously simply often referred to as 'bi-lateral heel problems' or navicular.
I've had two horses with collateral ligament damage. The first was 6yrs ago and he was mis-diagnosed with navicular due to the condition not being well recognised. At the time MRIs were few and far between and involved GAs. He ended up travelling 4hrs each way for the MRI which revealed a huge rupture of the medial collateral ligament. Sadly due to the slow diagnosis he was put to sleep.
Recently my current TB was diagnosed with chronic wear of his collateral ligament. He was immediately sent for an MRI and diagnosed.
I think the difference is problems that were previously diagnosed as arthritis, navicular etc were quite possibly ligament injuries. I think what is key that the diagnostic procedure continue to improve and become more available as early diagnosis is key in managing these injuries.

 

[smokeyjo]

It seems reasonable that exercising horses on a variety of surfaces must be beneficial for tendons/ligaments etc. Trouble is that nowadays the roads are so busy that many people don't want to hack out any more. My Vet and farrier both tell me this - that more and more people do nothing else but school in an arena.

The vet also says that in the 'old days' a horse had to be noticeably lame for clients to say there was a problem, whereas nowadays he gets called out for the slightest unusual movement. Sometimes serious problems can have trivial-looking symptoms, so maybe this is a factor too. Jo x

 

[racingdemon]

I think it has something to do with how youngstock are conditioned. These days more people are trying to breed something really special, and thus foals & yearlings get alot more time inside stables, turned out in neat flat paddocks and then start their education in arenas.

Previously youngstock where far more likely to be turned away for longer periods, turned out in larger groups and allowed to develop their own balance & feel for terrain.

I've ridden some beautiful horses, but who through no fault of their own have no idea how to balance themselves down a slope, over some rough ground or wet slippy banks

I'm sure this is a reason Irish Horses are often so long lasting, in general they are left to learn for themselves, accidents happen, horses get injuried or die doing anything & everything, but youngstock NEED to go outside, prat about, buck, squeal, kick each other & learn how to be a horse.

Our youngstock get plenty of handling, but they are turned out on undulating hilly pasture, with a grown up horse to keep them in line & last years filly is already showing signs of being a very nicely balanced little thing, which hopefully when she goes into training will stand her in really good stead for a long career

 

[mrdarcy]

Perhaps the Internet is also a factor? As in injuries aren't more common you just hear about more of them. Pre forums like this you only ever got to hear about your friend's and acquaintances horses and their injuries. Now you can come on HHO and read about five or six a day sometimes! So it just feels like it's a lot more common.

I do also think diagnosis has got better, whereas before a horse might go lame and it'd just get turfed out for 12 months without ever going near a vet now it would be scanned, MRI'ed etc and treated.

It'll be interesting to see any research done on the affect of artificial surfaces. They might well be a contributory factor or it might be the opposite. Horses get 'soft' working on consistent level surfaces in schools, so much so that if they do ever work on grass, harder surfaces, unlevel surfaces their tendons/ligaments aren't conditioned to cope.

 

[beaconhorse]

I think it is probably a combination of all the things mentioned

I consider myself typical average Riding club rider and I have changed a lot even in recent years

1 I Don't do anywhere near the road work I used to

2 I don't even do enough varied ground type work (changing that now)


3 Beacons recent annular ligament syndrome is something I probably would not have even notice several years ago as there was no lameness at all, only slight swelling which looked like a windgall, but there was heat even a week later so it was scanned

4 always school on a surface instead of grass

5 would not even consider a yard without at least 1 surface


So how my average horse owners have changed things over the years??????????????????

 

[zelli]

Hmm... Personally I wouldnt even start to blame the artificial surfaces, as the majority of these have been designed to protect the horse, and i dont blame the lack of road work, as there actually is not such thing as 'hardaning' tendons, and in actual fact, considering the fact that tendons break when pushed beyond the elastic limit, hardaning would increase injury, if you could do anything, you want to soften them!

I blame the management we use today. We breed for ability, and looks, and what we think is 'good' confirmation, but the question is, who decided what the perfect horse should look like? the racing industry is particularly bad when it comes to breeding, they will breed from anything as long as its fast, but how is breeding from a pigeon toed horse good as far as long term soundeness goes?

You then the good old saying that im sure the majority of people have heard someone say at sompepoint in the past. which is 'hes too expensive to go in the field'. This leads to you finding horses at weaning age being stabled 24/7 because turning them out in the field is dangerous, agian this is particularly so within the racing industry. But then, they go from this nice 'safe' stable, and are expected to be able to support a riders weight and do things like canter, gallop and jump!

But I truly believe the biggest culporate is what happens to the horse as from the day somebody decides to put tack on it. This seems to happen younger and younger all the time, it is not a rarity to find a horse for sale that at the age of two, is walk, trot canter and jumping with the rider on board, at the age of three they are working in an outline, and at 4 there competing. 9 times out of 10 these are the larger competition horses, which dont physically mature untill the age of around 8, and yet they are working as hard as the fully matured horses, and we expect them to stay sound? im sorry, it wont happen, particualrly with tendons, as every one only has a number of times that they can stretch untill they ive way, so by working the before theyve even finished growing is not going to help them become stron, long lasting tendons in any way shape or form.

The classical dressage trainers do not sit on a horse untill they are 4 years old. The first two years of which are basic work on a long rein, and then at the age of 6 they will begin to work the horse, however will not carry out advanced work untill the age of 8. By which time the horse is phsyically capable of doing this work, sensible dont you think?

I hate it when you see horses jumping 4'+ at the age of, and personally, I would be put of buyin said horse, and if i did, he certainly wouldnt be doing it again for a couple of years. The modern world is all about what we can get from our horses, and we push them earlier and earlier in their education in order to get this, and from where im sat now, it seems to be in correlation with the rise in injuries.

 

[SpruceRI]

Well this is an interesting thought:

A friend of mine has 8 horses/ponies of all sizes, shapes and ages. All are in work and do a mixture of hacking, jumping and dressage/flatwork.

One is kept at a friends yard, so the pony has nice turnout, is in at night and does all his flatwork on a surface, he's a dressage pony so mostly does that, only a bit of hacking and jumping in the school.

All the others that are galloped about, hacked for miles and jumped on pretty much any ground are all sound as a pound.

The dressage pony has had lameness and his hocks injected.

Now, his owner thinks it's because he works mostly on a surface.

I think it's just the amount of flatwork, PLUS the surface.

I don't think it's natural for a horse to have to spend the whole time sitting on his hocks and getting his hocks well underneath his body and I don't think a non slip surface such as a school helps either.

My school of thought also continues in the vein that is the reason so many horses have back problems because of this overschooling/outline business, and all on a surface?

Fine for a horse bred to be that shape, but possibly not for the rest?

A horses' action generally requires its feet to slide a little, which it can't do on a sand /sand mix.