Are the British rubbish at breeding horses? (not ponies!)

C

cp1980

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 May 2005
Messages
585
Location
Birmingham (Lancs originally)
Visit site
We have some of the best pony breeds in the world.

But, aside from Thoroughbreds, our horse breeds don't really do very well.

The Europeans have far more pragmatic approach to breeding horses - it's based on ability and temprament, rather than any appearance-based showing-biased breed standard on some over-poetic description of what horse a should look like. Personally, I'd be happy to have a horse that looks like a bag of spanners if it can move like it's floating on air, jump a small building and be handled by a seven year old.

Why can't we have a British Warmblood breeding programme to rival the Dutch of Germans?
 
cp1980 said:
We have some of the best pony breeds in the world.

But, aside from Thoroughbreds, our horse breeds don't really do very well.

The Europeans have far more pragmatic approach to breeding horses - it's based on ability and temprament, rather than any appearance-based showing-biased breed standard on some over-poetic description of what horse a should look like. Personally, I'd be happy to have a horse that looks like a bag of spanners if it can move like it's floating on air, jump a small building and be handled by a seven year old.

Why can't we have a British Warmblood breeding programme to rival the Dutch of Germans?
Click to expand...

You say that British breeds are based on 'some over-poetic description of what a horse should look like' then say you want them bred to 'move like it's floating on air'.
Now tell me, what would be the objective, analytical, non-descriptive performance standards which measure movement akin to floating on air?
S :D
 
2012-01-01141112.jpg


We do have! Its just in its infancy are the moment. This is my boy Touchwood Hot Opposition. Bred by the Austins at Touchwood Stud. He's 3/4 TB and 1/4 Trakh by Groomsbridge May out of a Fleetwater Opposition daughter. He was bred purely for performance, in his case eventing. Its just a lucky bonus he's such a handsome chap! My 5 year old son grooms him, my non horsey OH does everything with him AND he qualified for the Scottish sports horse final at his first ever show! (first trip in the trailer too!) Good British breeding is out there, its just being done very quietly. Futurity is helping but we need to stop being so British about it and celebrate our achievements!!
 
And what do the Germans etc use to produce these Warmbloods? English Thoroughbreds in the main! Stop rubbishing English breeding and open your eyes - we do breed decent horses, always have done, we're just no good at marketing...
 
cp1980 said:
We have some of the best pony breeds in the world.

But, aside from Thoroughbreds, our horse breeds don't really do very well.

The Europeans have far more pragmatic approach to breeding horses - it's based on ability and temprament, rather than any appearance-based showing-biased breed standard on some over-poetic description of what horse a should look like. Personally, I'd be happy to have a horse that looks like a bag of spanners if it can move like it's floating on air, jump a small building and be handled by a seven year old.

Why can't we have a British Warmblood breeding programme to rival the Dutch of Germans?
Click to expand...

Surely its important to have both qualities. A true to type breed of horse or pony shouldn't mean it lacks ability and temperament.
Selective breeding to maintain breed standards is vital for the future of any breed.
Many of our quality, selectively bred youngstock are brought by the Dutch/Germans etc, produced and turned into top performance horses. As Im sure many are on our own soil - we just don't shout about it loud enough.
Certainly many Breed Societies focus too much on showing and not enough on the perfomance horses representing them in other disciplines. There are breed societies that do have performance awards but not publicised enough.
 
billy2 said:
And what do the Germans etc use to produce these Warmbloods? English Thoroughbreds in the main! Stop rubbishing English breeding and open your eyes - we do breed decent horses, always have done, we're just no good at marketing...
Click to expand...

Agreed... plus we dont have the riders and auctions/stallion shows that they have over there. Marketing in Germany/Netherlands is a huge part, we just dont seem to get it over here. On top of that, horses are bred in huge numbers over there, those that dont make the grade are disposable. We dont breed anything like the numbers over here so the numbers that reach the top are going to be much smaller.
We are breeding some seriously good horses in the UK now, people need to start supporting the breeders!!
 
imafluffybunny said:
Agreed... plus we dont have the riders and auctions/stallion shows that they have over there. Marketing in Germany/Netherlands is a huge part, we just dont seem to get it over here. On top of that, horses are bred in huge numbers over there, those that dont make the grade are disposable. We dont breed anything like the numbers over here so the numbers that reach the top are going to be much smaller.
We are breeding some seriously good horses in the UK now, people need to start supporting the breeders!!
Click to expand...

We need to get the marketing sorted the producing sorted however I can't ever see us going over to big production methods on the continent it's not our way.
 
I thnk part of the proble is that it became fashionable to go overseas to buy horses, which discouraged people from breeding them as they weren't saleable over here. Much has been done in age classes, but these need extending so that we have a shop window for talent.
Plus we need to ask ourselves if we want hundreds/thousands more horses that don't quite make the grade being chucked out. Many of them that are bred to be performance horses aren't suitable for the amateur rider
 
zaminda said:
I thnk part of the proble is that it became fashionable to go overseas to buy horses, which discouraged people from breeding them as they weren't saleable over here. Much has been done in age classes, but these need extending so that we have a shop window for talent.
Plus we need to ask ourselves if we want hundreds/thousands more horses that don't quite make the grade being chucked out. Many of them that are bred to be performance horses aren't suitable for the amateur rider
Click to expand...

This ^^^

Too many buyers believe that there are better horses over the water, and when you consider that a high percentage of people are not top flight riders but they still think they can ride one, cue the get out for the middle price european market but this is still much higher than the same people would pay in the UK. This keeps the Euro market bouyant, and meanwhile we UK breeders watch the above riders as they are over horsed become more and more scared and unable to ride one side of them.

There are breeders such as the Billy stud who are really focused on producing competition horses, and others who don't get a mention but still manage to bring into the world some real competition horses that move up the grades, but there is still a lack of confidence and finance in the UK for getting these horses produced by professionals.

It really isn't easy..........
 
Britain breeds some darned good world class arabs too.......

ps Having a horse that is capable of jumping a small house is no good if that horse is so badly put together that it won't stay sound. Conformation is important, or you end up breeding all the toughness out of them ;)
 
cp1980 said:
The Europeans have far more pragmatic approach to breeding horses - it's based on ability and temprament, rather than any appearance-based showing-biased breed standard on some over-poetic description of what horse a should look like. Personally, I'd be happy to have a horse that looks like a bag of spanners if it can move like it's floating on air, jump a small building and be handled by a seven year old.
Click to expand...

But then I'd contemplate just how long that said horse would last if I'm honest if kept competing to that higher level with that conformation.

Coming from having a horse with awful conformation and problems arising from it...I'd agree whole heartedly, that our 'showing-biased' breed standards should run true for any horse. The conformation should be there for a reason. If the horse is only bought on for ridden show classes, then fine, but if that said horse was bought on for a specific job other than showing from the start [Ie, show jumping, eventing, etc], who's to say where it would end up ie level wise, when older? 90% of the time, if the conformation is there correct, then it should in theory, be able to do the job it's built for. Obviously you need the other 10% of actual schooling work and the horses heart and ability to do the job, but I'd rather know the conformation was there also. :)


But that is just me, and I do agree whole heartedly with your post too. I think the amount of good studs here to match our European rivals, is very limited and rubbish in comparison. But, then Germany has essentially always been the heart of warmblood breeding in my view. Maybe if we started more state studs etc and had thought about it more in the long term, we may have got somewhere instead of focusing on our Irish Sports and TB's.
 
Has anyone mentioned that many European countries have state run breeding programmes - so they have always had the advantage with marketing along side selective breeding?

I agree with others, we have much(perhaps not all given the requirements of modern performance) of the ingredients here in the UK with the TB, to cross and cross again with Welsh Cob, Irish, Connemara etc. There are some really good sorts being bred in the UK now.

What has only been happening in the last 20 years or so is looking at the dam lines, not just fixating on the stallion. Building up TB and part-bred performance lines, and it's beginning now, selected for their connection to performers, or for their own performance coupled with conformation, soundness and temperament.
 
2Conker said:
Has anyone mentioned that many European countries have state run breeding programmes - so they have always had the advantage with marketing along side selective breeding?

.
Click to expand...

''But, then Germany has essentially always been the heart of warmblood breeding in my view. Maybe if we started more state studs etc and had thought about it more in the long term, we may have got somewhere instead of focusing on our Irish Sports and TB's.''


:)
 
The main problem is a fair few breeders seem to have fallen in to the fashion of registering with foreign stud books.
As a result being the super horses that we do breed receive no credit for their British breeding and end up being claimed by another country!
Too many British bred warmbloods are being registered as KWPN or the like.
After all quite a few of the top stallions in foreign stud books have British blood behind them!
 
Also lets not forget that in Germany for instance they breed horses on an industrial scale. If you breed that many foals a year you are bound to get a few superstars, the law of averages tells you that!
I should imagine if you went by percentages alone Britain would be up their near the top in the breeding stakes.
 
Short answer: not as rubbish as we are at buying them.

I agree with what has been said above regarding lack of state input and a history of lack of any coherent breeding strategy. I also agree that registration with continental breed societies doesn't help because the horses don't then show as British bred and that the only performance test in this country that even approaches continental testing is that run by the National Stallion Association (and which is totally underused because the big societies haven't used it).

Having said that, there are really good British bred youngsters coming through. I have seen pictures of some of Brendon stud's up and coming home-bred stallions and there's none of them I'd kick out of my barn (to paraphrase ;) ). Woodlander Farouche has been mentioned, she's not their only star either. And many other studs out there producing good horses all unrecognised by press and buyers alike. I managed to get to Hartpury stallion parade and was really fed up not to be able to get to SSGB. It is happening, there are some lovely horses around.

However, while people would rather import horses that the mainland European breeders don't want to hold onto, the economics of breeding really classy youngsters that don't have the support of British buyers are very difficult indeed.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top