Are the days of the big horse gurus over?

[Mare Stare]

I'm talking about people like Parelli, Clinton Anderson, Monty Roberts etc.

About ten years ago, I couldn't move without seeing one of these names being suggested as a cure-all to all horse problems. Maybe it's because I'm old and I don't do that much social media. Is there a new wave of horse gurus that I am missing? Or are people just relying on common sense nowadays (unlikely, but I dream the dream!)?

 

[minesadouble]

Oh there's loads of them still about, most of them keep their horses at our livery yard

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

They have moved to TikTok now.

I started watching one the other day where a guy - wearing a hard hat to be fair - was called out to a 2yo Welsh c or d Colt that the owners were scared of because the kept biting them. They couldn't get a head collar on it for the teeth in or out of the stable and it would launch over the door at them.

From 30 seconds of watching this pony and listening to how they keep it it is obvious they are completely clueless and this is a very, very bored baby finding ways to amuse itself and they are now scared of it. And it knows they are scared of it. It's kept in a box 23 hours a day and has no interaction with any other horses.

I didn't actually watch the end of rhe video to find out what this guy said to them but to me it was obvious it needed kicked out in a herd of males to learn some manners and blow off some steam.

 

[Horseysheepy]

I can remember in the early 2000's Parelli and Monty Roberts was very much practised by quite a few owners at livery yards I was at.
I know of two friends now, who carried on with the methods and the others gave it a go and fizzled away from it for either not getting results soon enough, not understanding it, thinking it's a load of rubbish, or just plain giving up and doing what they know already.

I'm a little on the fence with it, the methods do require a person with alot of feel and good timing. And not everyone has that, that's ok, were all wired differently. But i think it can be very unfair in the horse if done by the wrong, often unintentionally, novice owner.
If you get to observe a true horse person with the right attributes to perform these techniques, it's a real pleasure to watch. I can't abide Parelli, I do like Michael Peace.

 

[Skib]

I learned to ride as an elderly beginner and was recommended to go and watch as many clinics and gurus as possible, I thought of it as like being at uni and going to lectures by experts. Over the years I watched a variety of trainers - Monty Roberts, Branamann, Rashid, Maxwell, Peace, Kelly Marks as well as horse owners who used Parelli.

Most of them added to my skills. As did the three books by John Lyons. I dont watch on line now as I ride a problem free mare and count myself lucky. But the bank of information is there to be drawn on when problems crop up. And it taught me what horses learn from the people who ride them and how they are ridden.

 

[Cortez]

Gosh, I certainly hope so!

I'm talking about people like Parelli, Clinton Anderson, Monty Roberts etc.

About ten years ago, I couldn't move without seeing one of these names being suggested as a cure-all to all horse problems. Maybe it's because I'm old and I don't do that much social media. Is there a new wave of horse gurus that I am missing? Or are people just relying on common sense nowadays (unlikely, but I dream the dream!)?

 

[Wizpop]

Well, sticking my tin hat on here. I have certainly learned a lot watching some of the Warwick Schiller videos- more a raising of awareness really. Warwick has been around for some years. I’m always curious and interested to learn as I certainly don’t always have all the answers! But I’m also very quick to reject anything that doesn’t sit right with me.

 

[dottylottie]

i think monty robert’s and parelli are the “freud” of the natural horsemanship world - they paved the way for us, much the same as freud did for psychology, but the majority of it is now outdated and there’s been better methods evolved from it. i don’t know anyone IRL that bothers with any of it, but i follow various people online that have their own methods along with people sharing their journey with their own horses and i don’t see anyone using their methods, in fact i see a lot of people “debunking” it in ways that seem glaringly obvious now, but weren’t then.

 

[Skib]

I use Rashid. But if one uses something that works for oneself and the horse that one is with, there is nothing to see. Basic Rashid is to feel the rhythm (beat) of each gait and to be able to transition to another gait by just thinking that change of rhythm. It is easier to transition up when heading for home, and downward transitions are never precise.
But if one knows the horse well, they recognise what one wants. The difficulty is genuinely wanting it. My old darling would do halt to canter for me when I was challenged by staff. But I woudnt even try it on my current share as I would be creating a terrifying, high risk, high speed canter out of control. I can ride her in dressage canter out in the open (it was remarked on) but it isnt what she is used to. She is ridden by dozens of people every week, novice riders and she knows the A, B, C of clear BHS aids. I may be too old and idle to use them but the BHS words Trot and Canter are enough. Both to ask for canter and to reject canter in favour of trot.

 

[Orangehorse]

Well, once again Covid has had an impact. Some of these people, Monty Roberts, Mark Rashid, Richard Maxwell, etc. who were very well known and did lots of demos and appeared in magazine articles, are now much older and not doing demos at the moment.

I knew someone who had a complete delinquent of a horse who bought the Parelli course and followed it closely and ended up with a wonderful horse that won Trec competitions also the thing that pleased her the most that when she turned up at the field to catch and ride him he came galloping over neighing in greeting, which he didn't do before! I also rode Parelli trained horses in the USA and they were completely good, nice horses.

I think that now maybe people know where to turn to for help and advice. I know that attending these lectures and clinics (and I agree that it was like going to University lectures) I learned a lot, and took something good away from every one. I know that there are detractors for some, but I was impressed with Monty Roberts and in a way he was the first main stream and he introduced Robert Maxwell, who was his rider for a while. I also know someone who worked closely with him on his UK tours and has never said a bad word about what he did.

As a Pony Club person, who did the usual hunting, eventing, showing things, these demos DID open my eyes to looking things more from the horse's point of view, which I am ashamed to admit, I didn't always do before.

Often it is a question of inexperienced owners not doing the right thing, and then the object is to teach them the correct way. And in my times going to these clinics both with a horse and as a spectator, I saw several times.

 

[Orangehorse]

I use Rashid. But if one uses something that works for oneself and the horse that one is with, there is nothing to see. Basic Rashid is to feel the rhythm (beat) of each gait and to be able to transition to another gait by just thinking that change of rhythm. It is easier to transition up when heading for home, and downward transitions are never precise.
But if one knows the horse well, they recognise what one wants. The difficulty is genuinely wanting it. My old darling would do halt to canter for me when I was challenged by staff. But I woudnt even try it on my current share as I would be creating a terrifying, high risk, high speed canter out of control. I can ride her in dressage canter out in the open (it was remarked on) but it isnt what she is used to. She is ridden by dozens of people every week, novice riders and she knows the A, B, C of clear BHS aids. I may be too old and idle to use them but the BHS words Trot and Canter are enough. Both to ask for canter and to reject canter in favour of trot.

I saw Mark Rashid teaching someone on a dressage horse and he cured their problem in about 30 seconds!

 

[MuddyMonster]

i think monty robert’s and parelli are the “freud” of the natural horsemanship world - they paved the way for us, much the same as freud did for psychology, but the majority of it is now outdated and there’s been better methods evolved from it. i don’t know anyone IRL that bothers with any of it, but i follow various people online that have their own methods along with people sharing their journey with their own horses and i don’t see anyone using their methods, in fact i see a lot of people “debunking” it in ways that seem glaringly obvious now, but weren’t then.

Yes, I'd agree with that.

I started with Monty Roberts/Kelly Marks which I didn't love & then found Parelli and was lucky enough to have a good local instructor.

I don't regret it as I learnt a lot and I still use a lo but I'm not 100% sure if I'd start with those methods now.

I really rate Warwick Schiller & Josh Nichols these days and use a bit of Connection Training too.

Funnily enough, I still use the afore mentioned Parelli instructor but they are no longer Parelli associated and also have a very good BHS instructor who is very classical in her teaching which works for us.

 

[cauda equina]

I agree about Monty Roberts; whatever you think about his methods as a whole he did at least get people thinking that there may be another way and out of the 'But we've always done it like this' mindset
A thing I don't like about some of the gurus is their insistence that their methods must come as a complete package, rather than using the bits that work and ignoring the rest

 

[Highmileagecob]

My daughter and I followed Michael Peace's training methods when we took on an Arab cross who was nervy and tended to bite. Had good results, and it taught us a lot. Monty Roberts has done a heck of a lot to educate owners to embed clear instructions that the horse is aware of, and not just 'be the boss.' I hope these trainers have taught us that it is ok to empathise with a horse and work at a good relationship. It sounds a bit twee, and I know there are times when a horse must do something you have asked, but it's ok to take time and be kind.

 

[maya2008]

I think many of the modern trainers have taken bits from older ones and made their own methods. Monty Roberts etc were pioneers for a new way of thinking, so gathered a lot of interest as they offered something new. Now, many people offer similar things and the novelty value has been lost.

 

[dottylottie]

I agree about Monty Roberts; whatever you think about his methods as a whole he did at least get people thinking that there may be another way and out of the 'But we've always done it like this' mindset
A thing I don't like about some of the gurus is their insistence that their methods must come as a complete package, rather than using the bits that work and ignoring the rest

this!! i think the whole essence of natural horsemanship/positive horsemanship is that you select different elements of others methods to piece together your own foundations.

my nana loves steve young horsemanship (i’ve actually bought us tickets to one of his demos for her birthday) and i also think he’s wonderful, but she’s been trying to insist i use his methods with lily and follow exactly what he does, and doesn’t seem to understand i don’t want to rely on just his skill set lol. what she’s suggested so far i don’t think is a good start point for us, because she’s 9 and clearly never done any of it so she’s not “receptive” to it - i think we need to start with physical pressure and release before she responds to just my body language etc because to me she’s learnt to ignore it unless it’s really clear!

 

[eahotson]

I learned to ride as an elderly beginner and was recommended to go and watch as many clinics and gurus as possible, I thought of it as like being at uni and going to lectures by experts. Over the years I watched a variety of trainers - Monty Roberts, Branamann, Rashid, Maxwell, Peace, Kelly Marks as well as horse owners who used Parelli.

Most of them added to my skills. As did the three books by John Lyons. I dont watch on line now as I ride a problem free mare and count myself lucky. But the bank of information is there to be drawn on when problems crop up. And it taught me what horses learn from the people who ride them and how they are ridden.

I loathe Branaman.

 

[Skib]

I loathe Branaman

I didnt like the DVDs much but what I saw him do in an arena display in Surrey looked different.
He sat on a demo horse and could request that horse to move any specific foot.
I and my then RI had a shot at doing this in the school and neither of us succeeded.
I also learned to understand the various bends and turns on which I had been quite muddled before.

 

[Horseysheepy]

What also didn't help was that certain NH trainers were very much into preaching about their techniques and created a cult like following.
And that loud music played at demos was just annoying and too loud for the horses.

But then, its the person that sells the product, and most people I remember literally worshipped the bloke!.

 

[Bobthecob15]

Richard Maxwell is still going but charges £400 a consultation

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

Richard Maxwell is still going but charges £400 a consultation

Really? That can't be true!

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

Sorry for doubting you Trakky14, I've just checked his website.

Add an extra £100 if you're in Scotland

 

[TPO]

I loathe Branaman.

Why? I can't think of a single "loathesome" thing about this man and how he works with horses.

 

[TPO]

Sorry for doubting you Trakky14, I've just checked his website.

Add an extra £100 if you're in Scotland

Was just about to reply that it's £500 for a first session with him up here regardless of what you want to work on. He insists that you book a double session, even if you've a young or green horse that tops out at half an hour, for the first time.

If the cost alone wasn't a bit "eek" there's a couple of groupies who are beyond off putting. It's a shame because I've been to just about every demo/clinic he's done up here and he is good at what he does.

Although knowing what I know now after watching a few trainers I'd pick Joe Midgley every time to watch/learn from.

 

[EventingMum]

The only thing I'd say is many years ago someone I know got Richard Maxwell to sort out a persistent loading problem and he permanently sorted it. He even went with the owner to take the horse somewhere else to check he would load away from home so to that person it was totally worth the expense as it enables to get out competing.

 

[sbloom]

There are lots of amazing people I follow on FB, most are American but far from all, it just seems that they produce the best contact. From all round horse people (Mills Consilient Horsemanship, Milestone Equestrian), though rehab (Celeste Leilani Lazaris), bodyworkers (Tami Elkyam, Yasmin Stuart) to dressage (Sonja Weber Reitkunst) if I had horses, and could get to them, I'd work with them in a heart beat. I share things from them regularly for my customers/followers. I avoid most pure NH as I think the levels of disengagement employed as part of the work isn't good for posture and movement patterns and don't really follow any big names in the traditional sense.

 

[J&S]

I don't know anything about the new guys but I always felt Monty R and Richard M to be pure show men. I could not stomach either Pirellis! Don't really go for much NH but probably use it unwittingly. I have always liked Michael Peace.
I have a large library of much older informative horse books by such as Henry Wynmalen, I would have liked to have seen him in RL.

 

[eahotson]

Why? I can't think of a single "loathesome" thing about this man and how he works with horses.

I can.On a DVd he was terrorising this little grey mare.If I owned her I would have killed him.He did an initial "How to bridle a nervous horse".That was good but it was a lead in.You were meant to think what a nice man he was.The rest was disgusting I binned the DVDs.I never wanted to watch them again.

 

[TPO]

I can.On a DVd he was terrorising this little grey mare.If I owned her I would have killed him.He did an initial "How to bridle a nervous horse".That was good but it was a lead in.You were meant to think what a nice man he was.The rest was disgusting I binned the DVDs.I never wanted to watch them again.

What dvd? I have most of them and can't recall any terrorised horses (& I'm the biggest softie going)

 

[sbloom]

I can.On a DVd he was terrorising this little grey mare.If I owned her I would have killed him.He did an initial "How to bridle a nervous horse".That was good but it was a lead in.You were meant to think what a nice man he was.The rest was disgusting I binned the DVDs.I never wanted to watch them again.

I hear horror stories about most of the big names including ones that many think are whiter than white. And so often when we find someone who transforms our understanding of the horse in some way, we look back on trainers we used to really respect and we see the holes, or worse.