Are there any bitting experts here- I'm really confused

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littlen

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My horse is a bit of a nightmare with bits. He finds it very hard to come down onto the bit and work properly. He has been known to rein snatch, Shake his head, open his mouth and use his favourite evasion tactic, head vertical and evade the bit that way.

He is currently ridden in a French link snaffle and is okay in it. I say ok because he is comfortable, but he never works in an outline or respects the but. If I am hacking and he wants to go, his head goes in the air and I have nothing.
He is ridden in a flash and martingale.

I really want to try my hand at showing and i understand he should either be in a double bridle or pelham. On looking at this I was thinking a pelham might be good to school him in and to get him used to it before the ring. I would use 2 reins.

My idea was schooling sometimes in a pelham and sometimes in a snaffle depending on the situation, however lots of people said this would be far too confusing for him and it would ruin his mouth?
But then how will I get him used to it for showng if I can't switch between the two?
Ideally I didn't want him in a pelham permenantly as he is very very sensitive mouthed and I fear he would just back away from the bit. I also dot want to harden his mouth.
My instructor also said I am better off schooling in a snaffle, but he just isn't improving?
I also don't understand how I will get him used to working in a pelham or showing if I can't practice with it?

I am really confused, should I try the pelham or not?
How severe is the bit?
 
I'd switch into the pelham a week or so before the show.... But have him going "properly" beforehand in the snaffle. Don't just put him in a pelham to bring his head in as it will be false and ultimately is going to teach him incorrectly.

Have you had his teeth checked? Have you thought of having your instructor ride him to see if she can get him going? Can you ride "round" on other horses?
 
Any bit in the wrong hands is a bad bit, whether it be a pelham or a snaffle...the pelham IS considered strong, but some horses hate snaffles...it's horses for courses..!

I agree with your instructor that a snaffle IS better, and I'm betting that you have had the usual checks done, teeth, back etc. etc. etc....

I had a horse who had a similar problem, and found for him....a roller bit worked very well, he just couldn't grab it, and spent all his time messing about with it, he forgot to get his head in the air!

The best thing to do, is try, try, try.....it can be a long process, but you will find you will get there in the end!

:D
 
if your horse has a sensitive mouth chances are as you have already said he will object to the action of the pelham.Yes it does have a lowering action due to the curb but it sounds like your horse is very sensitive and would possibly over react to this. First things first but when did your horse last have his teeth,tack and back checked? Also who checked their teeth? was it a vet or a dentist.If whoever did the check wasn't a fully qualified EDT then I would suggest perhaps getting one out to have a thorough look in case something has been missed.
If your instructor is saying better to stick to a snaffle have they explained their reasoning behind this? I would go for something like a hanging cheek to encourage a softening of the poll but a horse will only soften in front when they are relaxed,working from behind and the rider is able to keep their contact consistent and their legs still.Not saying that you can't ride by the way before you think I am lol, but just trying to explain that in some cases it can be due to the rider. Sometimes you are better off going back a step and using a different metal or a thicker or thinner mouthpiece depending on the conformation of your horses mouth.A fully qualified EDT should be able to explain to you whether your horse has a low palette or a thicker tongue or any thickening of the bars of the mouth which could affect the type of bit best suited to the horse.
 
i would try to beg and borrow a selection of bits to try, from friends aquantances or the bit bank. have you tried taking the flash off him? some dont go well in flashs, or even take the complete noseband off and see what he does when schooling? pelhams can have many mouthpeices some he will hate or may love, and different shank lenghts. for showing i like either well schooled in a snaffle or well schooled in a double! pelhams are neither one thing or the other! i would also consider a correctly fitted standing martingale (is you m standing or running?) as it only comes into play when he chucks his head right up to evade you, might help in the short term til you get him going as ou want him to.
 
Everything checked. He has always been like this, I've had him 2 years and it takes a minimum of 40mins to achieve outline, which then lasts 10mins max.

I hAve tried a gag and hanging cheek. He didn't like either.

I have tried to school him in the snaffle but it feels like I'm getting nowhere! He will work well one day and terrible the next, at shows he is always uncontrolable as he is so excited. Head in the air and I've lost all control. I find myself hauling on his snaffle which I know is wrong but it's the only way he listens!

I have regular lessons. Instructor says a pelham is too harsh for him, but for showng I've got to use that (his mouth won't take a double) so what can I do?
 
littlen said:
says a pelham is too harsh for him, but for showng I've got to use that (his mouth won't take a double) so what can I do?
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no you don't have to use a pelham. I always showed my boy in a snaffle, at affiliated and unaff shows and it was never commented on.

Unless you doing a class like Show Hack/Hunter at County Level it really isn't going to matter if you're in a snaffle.
 
galaxy23 said:
no you don't have to use a pelham. I always showed my boy in a snaffle, at affiliated and unaff shows and it was never commented on.

Unless you doing a class like Show Hack/Hunter at County Level it really isn't going to matter if you're in a snaffle.
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True. Although I always think it looks smarter to use 2 reins and it has been commented on at open level.
He also will work in a better outline in the pelham which can only help in the show ring I would think.


I think I will continue with schooling in the snaffle but use the pelham once a week to practice for shows. Would this e a bad idea and if so why?
 
have you tried using something that isn't jointed? I would perhaps try a kimblewicke or a ported snaffle before a pelham just to see if it makes any difference. It could be your horse doesn't like a jointed bit. A pelham is quite strong and should be used with 2 reins, not roundings as some people seem to opt for. If you put a pelham in your horses mouth he may object to the action of it and back off going behind the bit making him even less controlable. Which ever option you try make sure you use it in the school several times before trying it out on a hack.
 
You could just use a double, as you ride off the bridoon rein anyway. That way still in a snaffle ultimately but still very much correct!

Have you played around with the mouth pieces - there's SO many snaffle variations; twisted, french, jointed, curb-similar mouth pieces, wilki, etc.

I'd be working alot lunging too till he works softly himself - stick him in a bungee or similar and let him fight himself out untill he learns to shut up and listen :)
 
You are allowed to show at county level in either a pelham,double or snaffle bridles.
If he has a sensitive ish mouth and school him in a snaffle, have you tried a rubber straight bar snaffle??
 
Firstly makes you think your horse is comfortable in the current bit? (I don't mean that sarcastically neither) but have you really taken a good look at your horses mouth, the bit your using, the nose band and the way your horse reacts, as well as putting the time in schooling and the usual back/teeth/saddle checks.

Is there a possibility that your horse has a very low palette or a fat tongue for example, what breed is he? therefore he could be avoiding contact due to not feeling content in his mouth, I thick mouth peice, even a FL if strapped in with a flash could be causing problems so you'll never really get him relaxed for example so it takes all this time for him to give in before he thinks ''right that's enough''?

PS and no, I'm no expert by the way, just asking what I'd think if I was in your shoes thats all. :)
 
I would forget the pelham and work on the schooling, a bit change won't magically fix the outline as it is much more about working from behind and raising his back.

Does he need the flash? I'd take it off and see what happens, some horses object to them, and if he isn't opening his mouth he doesn't need it. If he is opening his mouth without it, try a drop instead, they get a similar effect without needing to be over tightened like a flash. The other alternative would be a mexican grackle. Although you will need a cavesson in the show ring.

I would change the running martingale for a standing, as it doesn't interfere with the contact and won't catch him in the mouth if he chucks his head up. Again not correct for the show ring but will help with schooling and hacking. If you haven't got a standing, you can adjust the length of your running martingale and put the rings your reins go through round the noseband instead as a temporary solution.

You need to get him to accept the contact and soften, while using his quarters, talk to your instructor but it might be worth trying a little bit of lunging in a pessoa or riding in a market harbrough to help him get the idea and build the muscle. Bear in mind that his muscles will get tired so he won't be able to hold the outline for long until he has built up the right muscles. You need to do lots of exercises to get him to engage his quarters too, transitions, changes of bend, lateral work etc.

Keep him in the snaffle, a showing judge would prefer to see him happy in a snaffle than going badly in a pelham or double.

I wouldn't follow the suggestion of a kimblewick, they are quite strong bits and incorrect for showing too. If you think that he could be more settled in his mouth try some different snaffles, try a lozenge rather than a french link, or try one with a curved mouthpiece, or try one without a joint and see which he is more comfortable in.

It really sounds as though it is schooling and muscle tone that need the work more than a change of bit though. Maybe get a second opinion from a more experienced instructor too.

You shouldn't be looking to use a pelham or double ideally until your horse is established and working well in a normal snaffle.
 
Katt said:
Oh and have a read of this website about bits and nosebands.

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/
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Really like this website, lots of veery good information.

I believe the best way to solve a bitting problem is to remove the cause ie the bit. Lots of horses are very vocal about the fact that the dont feel comfortable in a bit. And lots of well meaning owners put on martingales and flashes in the belief that it will solve the problem.
I know that its probably not an option if you want to show or do dressage, but if i knew my horse was more comfortable without the bit than with it, no competition or prize money would make me use one.
 
The issue of whether to use a Pelham is irrelevant. You say that at the moment your horse will only come onto the bit for 10 minutes. If that is the case, you are wasting your money entering any showing classes because you are going to be at the end of the line unless you can walk, trot and canter in a nice outline, on the bit for the duration of the class. I am sorry if that sounds harsh.

French Link snaffles are not always that comfy for a horse, try something basic like a NS Starter Snaffle which has a losenge link. Take off the flash strap and the running martingale. Try using a simple standing martingale. The key is whether your trainer can get him going, if she can, then the fault probably lies with you and you need to invest in some more lessons.
 
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