Are these feet becoming too boxy?

[sonjafoers]

In my opinion I have a great farrier and I trust decisions he makes regarding my horses' feet. However it has recently been suggested that he is boxing this horses feet and I would be grateful for your opinions.

 

[nullarbor]

Feet look great to me, you see far too many horses with excessively long toes so good on your farrier for keeping them nice and short. They look fine and match the angle of your horses pastern so wouldnt be changing anything if it was mine!

 

[SusieT]

My impression would be they are a bit boxy and upright, particularly in front. Why not discuss it with your farrier to see why he is shoeing him the way he is? Do you have a whole horse pic?

 

[sonjafoers]

SusieT I probably have a ridden type pic but not one taken for conformation, would that be any use?!

 

[Cheiro1]

Feet look great to me, you see far too many horses with excessively long toes so good on your farrier for keeping them nice and short. They look fine and match the angle of your horses pastern so wouldnt be changing anything if it was mine!

This

 

[beeswax]

heels are too long which is making them become underrun and the toes will also run away soon, if the heels were shortened then the toes would look long, and yes they look like the inside of the hoof wall has been rasped away too much making the foot more boxy (than round), this will have a negative effect on the strength of the hoof wall on the inside and could cause it to collapse as it will affect the balance and weight bearing, and the hind ones should have an oval shape, not all four feet having the same shape, one is weight bearing the other is for pushing therefore need to be of a different shape for a different job, I would change farrier.

 

[cptrayes]

Photos are very difficult to judge, they can be extremely deceptive. You cannot, for example, see the true angles of the sides unless you take your photos lying down level with the foot, in all that water

But all four feet look too long. How long before the photos was he shod? Other than that, I like the tightness of them, it is much better than the flared shod feet that are so often seen.

 

[sonjafoers]

It wasn't easy to take the pics because there really isn't much room there!

She was shod 2 weeks ago.

 

[Keimanp]

From looking at the photos they do like slightly odd, I think this is because in my mind rear shoes with the quarter clips have been put on the front as well as the back.

I understand that the quarter clips are to stop the twisting of the shoe and the single toe clip is used for the front to stop the shoe slipping backwards?

Is there any reason to use the quarter clips on the front? Would this (as it does for me) make the front look square and boxed more than they are?

(Sorry for not really helping answer your questions but asking my own!)

Robert

 

[Tammytoo]

Mmmm! Shoot me down in flames, but I think he is altering the shape of the hooves to a boxy outline. If you draw a line down the front of the hoof in the second picture you will see that threequarters of the way down the hoof the angle changes and becomes more upright. Your farrier may well have a reason for doing this, but normally the angle should be the same all the way down and should match the angle of the pastern but not just in the first three quarters I agree that the heels look a little long as well.

 

[Cheiro1]

Keimanp front shoes come with either one or 2 toe clips (as picture) now depending on what the horse needs.
2 toe clips are better for horses which need rolled front toes, or who have the tendancy for the feet to splay as it "holds" the foot to either side not the front (I am struggling to explain quite what I mean).
Sorry if I havent really answered your question, but just that they arent back shoes, they are fronts just with 2 toe clips

 

[Keimanp]

Keimanp front shoes come with either one or 2 toe clips (as picture) now depending on what the horse needs.
2 toe clips are better for horses which need rolled front toes, or who have the tendancy for the feet to splay as it "holds" the foot to either side not the front (I am struggling to explain quite what I mean).
Sorry if I havent really answered your question, but just that they arent back shoes, they are fronts just with 2 toe clips

Thanks Cheiro, I think I sort of get part of what you are saying. In my experience the rolled toe shoes that were fitted to the family horse (he is the minimal effort type and occasionally stumbles because of it) didn't have any toe clips at all and from the photo it doesn't appear that the shoes are rolled toes? So in this case it could be to hold the hoof walls together and provide additional support to stop the splaying and ultimate weakening of the hoof wall?

I suppose that you can get varying types of shoe with different numbers of toe clips or even none at all?

 

[ester]

I don't think they ever prevent splaying, but moreoften used so that the shoe can be set further back which changes the point of break over for the hoof (with or without additional rolling of the toe).

 

[Cheiro1]

I don't think they ever prevent splaying, but moreoften used so that the shoe can be set further back which changes the point of break over for the hoof (with or without additional rolling of the toe).

Splaying is probably the wrong word. I have seen them used succesfully on a TB with very flat splayed feet as they could get the feet back better using them, but your right, saying they prevent playing is the wrong terminology

 

[tristar]

the toes are what we used to call 'dumped' difficult to tell from photos but to me the toe falls away to steeply, maybe making the foot fit the shoe.

 

[sonjafoers]

Tammytoo & tristar I think you may be talking about the change in hoof structure from roughly about 8 months which can clearly be seen on the pics.
I have discussed this with my farrier and it could be down to a change in feed at that time ( onto a balancer over summer ). Also around May time she had an injury which meant she was off work for about 8 weeks and then went onto very little riding in comparison to her previous routine - my farrier says this could also effect the hoof growth. I think this can be seen in the black hoof as she wasn't coming through properly in the alternate hind making this shoulder sore.

I do however see what you mean about dumping the toe to fit the shoe tristar - I will ask about this again because I previously thought this obvious change was for the reasons mentioned above.

The shoes were changed to quarter clips by this farrier because the feet were in poor shape when he took over - long in the toe, becoming slightly underrun at the heel and very ' splayed '. It was his advice that the quarter clips would prevent these problems as he feels the toe can run away in toe clips.

 

[cptrayes]

From looking at the photos they do like slightly odd, I think this is because in my mind rear shoes with the quarter clips have been put on the front as well as the back.

I understand that the quarter clips are to stop the twisting of the shoe and the single toe clip is used for the front to stop the shoe slipping backwards?

Is there any reason to use the quarter clips on the front? Would this (as it does for me) make the front look square and boxed more than they are?

(Sorry for not really helping answer your questions but asking my own!)

Robert

Mmmm! Shoot me down in flames, but I think he is altering the shape of the hooves to a boxy outline. If you draw a line down the front of the hoof in the second picture you will see that threequarters of the way down the hoof the angle changes and becomes more upright. Your farrier may well have a reason for doing this, but normally the angle should be the same all the way down and should match the angle of the pastern but not just in the first three quarters I agree that the heels look a little long as well.

It is considered good practice in farriery these days to shorten the toe to bring back the breakover to a point closer to the breakover on an unshod working horse. In order to do this, double clip front shoes are often used on horses whose toe would be damaged by a centre clip. "Dumping" the toe used to be considered a big sin, but it is no longer the case.

 

[sonjafoers]

Do you think these toes are being 'dumped' then SantaPaws?

I have never been concerned about them before as I have every faith in my farrier but is it something I should bring up with him in your opinion?

 

[amandap]

I can't comment on the shoeing as I know zilch about it. The hooves all look a bit long to me though. Long hooves tend to run forward or get taller.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

If the horse had only been shod 2 weeks previously, the feet are too long imo. In fact they would be too long, if they were due to be shod tomorrow. This is why they are becoming 'boxy'. If they were shorter, they would look rounder.
If this horse had no shoes on, its hooves would be much shorter. The farrier should be putting the shoes onto as near to a natural foot as possible.
A friend changed to using my farrier and soon realised that her horse's feather was once again touching the ground - as it used to do before her previous excellent farrier retired. The farrier she had in the interim had allowed the hooves to get too long and the horse was struggling with abscesses.
Just in case any-one is wondering, I'm not a member of the 'barefoot clique'. I have shod, unshod and part-short horses.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Looks like he is shoeing a bit like you would with a natural balance shoe i.e. with the shoe set back from the toe to improve the break-over - the toe is usually shaped and with some shoe behind the heel to support the heel. -A proper NB shoe might work better but probably more expensive.

Please take my comments with some caution as I am simply a horse owner not a farrier or otherwise trained in anything to do with the horses feet. I think you should always discuss your horses shoeing with the farrier and why he does something just as you would discuss with your vet why a particular treatment is being used.

 

[Oberon]

Actually I prefer Barefoot Taliban to clique - makes us sound nice and scary

I am not 100% with shoeing practices yet (I am trying to learn more). But it looks to me like the farrier is trying his best and putting thought into the horse's feet.

The toes are long and boxy in comparison to bare hooves - but they are better than most shod hooves out there.

The farrier is attempting to keep break over at a helpful angle.

The appears to be acceptable hoof/wall connection to start with.

It would be interesting to see solar view - I have a sense that they will be contracted - but again, this is usually characteristic of shod hooves too.

If the horse is sound, then it's all good

 

[sonjafoers]

Thank you for your comments everyone, it has given me something to think about.

Oberon yes she is sound & her feet have remained at their usual temperature, she hasn't had any more outbreaks of hot feet so I've no idea what caused that.
Could you explain to me what you mean by hoof/wall connection please.

 

[Oberon]

Thank you for your comments everyone, it has given me something to think about.

Oberon yes she is sound & her feet have remained at their usual temperature, she hasn't had any more outbreaks of hot feet so I've no idea what caused that.
Could you explain to me what you mean by hoof/wall connection please.

Sorry - I've just finished my nightshifts and I wasn't concentrating when posting.

I meant she appears to have little flare in comparison to lots of hooves, which shows a decent connection between the wall and laminae and coffin bone.

This pic is a good guide. It's a chronic laminitis hoof, but it's the same principle just more dramatic.
Look at the first 1 - 2 inches at the coronet. This is the angle the horse wants to grow before it all goes tits up. It's well connected wall, pure and fresh (well - not really in this hoof, it's *******ed up all the way). The rest is flared as the wall is poorly connected due to weakening via diet and ripping by mechanics.

 

[Tnavas]

Yes.

Would be good to see a pic of the underside as usually with boxy feet you get contracted heels.

Front feet viewed from below should be almost circular and hind feet should be slightly longer than their width

 

[lottie940]

Feet look great to me, you see far too many horses with excessively long toes so good on your farrier for keeping them nice and short. They look fine and match the angle of your horses pastern so wouldnt be changing anything if it was mine!

I agree, my farrier now takes the toes short on my anglo arab to keep him sound. He did his check ligament last year so the vet told me to have the toes taken short and have egg bars fitted. No probs since, you have a good farrier.

 

[sonjafoers]

I get it now Oberon I've always thought my farrier is doing as good job on the hoof/pastern axis and I think this is what you mean.

Years ago she became intermittently unsound but it was very subtle, I had her feet x rayed and the pedal bone had dropped slightly due to poor shoeing - her toes were long & the heels under run. My vet explained about the strain this has on the tendons & ligaments and he explained to me about the hoof/pastern axis. As a layman I have tried to keep an eye on this but sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees.

Since having my current farrier I have never worried about their feet, he has done a wonderful job on my other horse ( TB with terrible feet ) and improved her so much in the last 2 years it really is a miracle. However the horse pictured had warm feet recently & my YO said it was due to the terrible shoeing - hence the post!

It's been interesting reading the different views on here - some completely opposite to others, so I will speak to my farrier about the concerns raised by my YO at his next visit. I hope he isn't offended but I guess I wouldn't be doing the best for my horse if I didn't mention it to him.

I know I didn't take a pic but the front shoes really do look quite rounded when viewed from the underside - much moreso than the longer, oval back ones.

 

[cptrayes]

Do you think these toes are being 'dumped' then SantaPaws?

I have never been concerned about them before as I have every faith in my farrier but is it something I should bring up with him in your opinion?

Yes, but I also don't think that there is anything wrong with dumping the toe, in fact I think it is a very good thing to do to a shod foot to bring the shoe back as far as possible. Barefoot horses very often "dump" their own toe by wearing off the underside so that the front of the horn is not in contact with the floor. They stand on the toe sole callous and only the very inner part of the hoof wall, if that.

I think your farrier is actually doing a good job for you, but I do think they look long, and I would want to see how deep they are to judge whether he just has deep feet or if the walls are too long.