arthritis in the coffin bone and sidebone - barefoot or shoes?

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MissCandy

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Hi!

The patient: 13 year old mare with 4 month old foal at foot. Approx 8 weeks ago came in from the field very very lame after jumping out of the field after her runaway foal :( she could hardly turn, but better on the straight. Vet said she walked like a laminitic. She had 3 weeks of Danilon which helped. Started on limestone powder immediately as vet suggested possible calcium defiecency. Started on Cortaflex 4 weeks ago and much improved but still lame. She is currently fed a small amount of stud mix and stud balancer. She has been barefoot for 3 years, trimmed by farrier. Recently found a barefoot trimmer and now due for 3rd trim with her.

She had nerve blocks and xrays of front feet today. She was sound with nerve blocks. X-rays show arthritis on the coffin bone and sidebone. There is a small fragment of 'floating' bone - vet says that this and the sidebone is not causing the lameness. In addition she has a very thin sole - this is what the vet thinks is causing the lameness - she is footsore.

The vets recommendation is shoes, not necessarily 'special' shoes, normal shoes will do to lift the foot and hopefully solve the soreness. My mare will not tolerate being shod so will require sedation.

I would prefer to keep her barefoot. I have done a lot of reading and this is always what I come back to. BUT I have spent money (a lot) on a professionals opinion and don't want to ignore it.:confused:

I am thinking radical change to diet as I suspect that stud mix and balancer is not ideal for barefoot! and hoofboots for the soreness before going down the shoe route.

Any opinions? suggestions? experiences? I would greatly appreciate it!
 
I've no experience of breeding so I can't comment on that at all, but my take on barefoot is that it's only worth doing if, after taking everything into consideration, your horse benefits from it. It does sound like there might be few things going on with your mare currently and if she is struggling with footiness, I can't see how putting shoes on her for a few weeks to help her stay comfortable would do her any harm. Then you can make any changes you think necessary to her diet gradually and give her time to sort herself out before pulling her shoes again. I know a few people now who shoe their horses for the 'lami season' and pull them when the grass flushing is no longer a problem and they seem to do very well being managed this way :)
 
I have little experience of sidebone so can't really comment on that.

I struggle to understand why the mare still has thin soles after being barefoot for so long - they should have calloused up by now. There must be dietry reason why not, or perhaps the sole callous has been routinely removed?

Any chance of pics of the feet?

If you have a decent trimmer they should be able to advise you on diet and whether she would be better off in shoes for a while - and yes - a decent trimmer should know when shoes will help a horse and be able to accept it and do what's right for the horse.

If she has thin soles and jumped onto hard ground and then walked like a laminitic - I would say she caused some inflammation to the internal structures (like concussive laminitis) and may be stuck into a cycle of that.

My elderly boy with excellent feet had his feet go SPLAT after his vaccinations, then got an abcess, then was left with a thin, damaged sole which took a while to repair. He was unsound for a while as he was trapped in a cycle where he would cause inflammation by razzing around on uneven ground and people were muttering to put shoes on him. I kept him in for a week (which he rather enjoys), detoxed his liver with Global Herbs Restore and let him rest and he came back stronger. I'm not suggesting you do the same for your mare - but juts sharing what happened to me. I was very lost at the time!
 
I would say a combination of the danilon (toxins), recent grass growth and stud mix are causing your mare to be footsore.

I would treat her as if she was laminitic; no sugar (ie. mollasses on stud mix!) soaked hay, restricted grazing, suppliment magnisium.

I bet you will see her sound again very soon!
 
It's probably the thin soles that are causing her the most discomfort. And I wouldn't hesitate to put front shoes on.

She is clearly not doing well without.
 
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I've never known shoes to make thins soles thicker. Only a good diet and proper managment will do that. Shoes and the shoeing process though often make soles thinner.

Equally the numbing effect means a horse with thin soles is more vulnerable to injuring themselves, sometimes quite seriously, because they can not feel their feet as well. Which is why there has been at least one case of a horse stepping on a stone so hard (when shod) that the stone pentrated the sole and the horse bled to death.

I would recommend the OP ask their barefoot trimmer about diet etc and how to thicken the sole. Also read this blog for items on thin soles and diet etc www.barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com
 
Thank you all for your replies.

I have spoken to my trimmer today and sent her a copy of the xrays. She is going to email me back with reccomendations for diets in pregnant/nursing mares for optimum barefoot health.

LucyPriory said:
I've never known shoes to make thins soles thicker. Only a good diet and proper managment will do that. Shoes and the shoeing process though often make soles thinner.[/url]
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This is what I am interested in - my trimmer said that shoes will no doubt stop her from being footsore - in the short term at least as it will reduce circulation to the foot and cause a numbing effect but will not help in the long term.
 
Spinal Tap said:
I know a few people now who shoe their horses for the 'lami season' and pull them when the grass flushing is no longer a problem and they seem to do very well being managed this way :)
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I find this really worrying. The horse gets footy in the lami season because of inflamation of the laminae, so rather than eliminating the cause (too much grass) and therefore preventing the laminae from getting inflamed in the first place they simply put shoes on to mask the pain? That's akin to riding a lame horse on enough bute to make him 'appear' sound. The toxins caused by too much grass do not disappear because you put a set of shoes on - they are still there damaging the foot, little by little, more by more as each year goes by, as well as who knows what other damage is occuring in the liver and kidneys.

To the OP - any chance you can post the x-rays on here? It seems too much of a coincidence that she went lame after she jumped out of the field. I take it she wasn't footsore before, despite her 'thin' soles? So why weren't her thin soles a problem before? These are questions I would ask your vet. Certainly I wouldn't want to put shoes on a horse that needed sedating to be shod - as Lucy says shoes will never get the sole to thicken up, so if it is thin soles causing the lameness then having shoes on for a few weeks won't do anything but mask the problem.
 
Sorry, I don't know how to quote more than one person in one response - please bare with me!

Oberon said:
I struggle to understand why the mare still has thin soles after being barefoot for so long - they should have calloused up by now. There must be dietry reason why not, or perhaps the sole callous has been routinely removed? I think it is because she was trimmed by a farrier and therefore trimmed in a way to take a shoe so sole callous has likely been removed. (I appreciate not all farriers will trim a barefoot horse this way but I think mine did) I struggled to find a trimmer and now I have I'm hoping to see much more improvement, she has only had 2 trims this way so far. Also I now know that her diet is certainly lacking for barefoot and this is one of the main things I am going to change. A question I will also ask my trimmer, but how long do you think it would usually take for a sole to thicken?

Any chance of pics of the feet? I will try, I was hoping to get some yesterday to accompany my post (I remembered my camera and everything) but just didn't have time. Might take me a couple of days but I will add them as I would appreciate comments

If you have a decent trimmer they should be able to advise you on diet and whether she would be better off in shoes for a while - and yes - a decent trimmer should know when shoes will help a horse and be able to accept it and do what's right for the horse.

If she has thin soles and jumped onto hard ground and then walked like a laminitic - I would say she caused some inflammation to the internal structures (like concussive laminitis) and may be stuck into a cycle of that. This does make sense. I will monitor her closely especially at this time of year - am I right in thinking autumn grass can be just as bad as spring for laminitics?

My elderly boy with excellent feet had his feet go SPLAT after his vaccinations, then got an abcess, then was left with a thin, damaged sole which took a while to repair. He was unsound for a while as he was trapped in a cycle where he would cause inflammation by razzing around on uneven ground and people were muttering to put shoes on him. I kept him in for a week (which he rather enjoys), detoxed his liver with Global Herbs Restore and let him rest and he came back stronger. I'm not suggesting you do the same for your mare - but juts sharing what happened to me. I was very lost at the time!
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mrdarcy said:
I find this really worrying. The horse gets footy in the lami season because of inflamation of the laminae, so rather than eliminating the cause (too much grass) and therefore preventing the laminae from getting inflamed in the first place they simply put shoes on to mask the pain? That's akin to riding a lame horse on enough bute to make him 'appear' sound. The toxins caused by too much grass do not disappear because you put a set of shoes on - they are still there damaging the foot, little by little, more by more as each year goes by, as well as who knows what other damage is occuring in the liver and kidneys.

To the OP - any chance you can post the x-rays on here? It seems too much of a coincidence that she went lame after she jumped out of the field. I take it she wasn't footsore before, despite her 'thin' soles? So why weren't her thin soles a problem before? These are questions I would ask your vet. Certainly I wouldn't want to put shoes on a horse that needed sedating to be shod - as Lucy says shoes will never get the sole to thicken up, so if it is thin soles causing the lameness then having shoes on for a few weeks won't do anything but mask the problem.
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Hi, I will try to get the xrays on. In all honesty yes, she has been footsore before following a trim by the farrier. I was led to believe this was normal -she would be footsore for a few days afterwards. She is kept out 24/7 (although as I have moved yards she will be in this winter) and therefore most of the time was on soft ground. The new yard is very stony and she has to walk a hard stony path to the field. I think this is why I have noticed it more. She hasn't been in work for 3 years as I was pregnant and then she was so she wasn't often out of the field on hard/stony ground.

The xrays do show a floating fragment of bone and whilst, in the vets opinion, this is not causing her pain now, she thinks she may have fractured the sidebone when jumping out of the field which caused significant pain at the time.

I am not against shoes but I want to make sure they will not cause more harm than good for my mare. I have had her sedated for shoeing in the past but I now wonder if she won't tolerate it if she associates it with pain - it is the hammering she can't stand - rather than a bad experience with a farrier in the past as I first thought.
 
How long it will take her soles to thicken up depends on her diet and the amount of stimulation you can provide. With her current state - the stimulation will be nil as she may be suffering with internal inflammation so needs to be kept quiet.

It would be ideal to stable her and limit her movement for a few days (like a laminitic) and walk her with boots on but with the foal it is not appropriate to do that.

If she is very uncomfortable it may be worth considering shoes until you can get her diet right and then start again when she is ready. I am concerned that making changes to her current diet with a foal at foot may be the wrong thing to do at present. The main focus has to be to ensure she is not in pain. Shoes won't help in the long run but they may offer some relief at present.

No horse should ever be sore after a trim (unless it is by a vet and it is a surgical intervention) - but then I guess you know that by now.

It's ironic that it is "OK" for a farrier to make a horse sore after a trim but if it was a trimmer there would be a scandal!
 
mrdarcy said:
I find this really worrying. The horse gets footy in the lami season because of inflamation of the laminae, so rather than eliminating the cause (too much grass) and therefore preventing the laminae from getting inflamed in the first place they simply put shoes on to mask the pain? That's akin to riding a lame horse on enough bute to make him 'appear' sound. The toxins caused by too much grass do not disappear because you put a set of shoes on - they are still there damaging the foot, little by little, more by more as each year goes by, as well as who knows what other damage is occuring in the liver and kidneys.
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I haven't said that these horses are hopping lame, these are horses that are pretty much rock crunching all winter but which become sensitive on certain going when the grass flushes in spring. In this instance, yes you do what you can to control the diet of your horse such that it is rock crunching again, but that can be very difficult to impossible. All these horses are quite old & prone to stiffness, so keeping them in to avoid the grass is not a good idea. Even when muzzled they are sufficiently sensitive to the grass for it to make them footy. The owners are at livery yards and are not allowed to have paddock paradise or starvation paddock facilities - there is the turnout field, you use it or you don't. So what do you do? Try hoof boots which have a nasty tendency to split/twist/break/rub/fall off and are generally a PITA, or have your horse shod, which makes them completely comfortable and able to d o whatever they want to do? The proof of the pudding is in the eating - when these horses shoes come off, they are rockcrunching again. I suspect that a large proportion of shod horses out there would probably be footsore on rough surfaces if their shoes were pulled - your comments above could equally be levelled at their owners.

I have had all of my horses barefoot for the last 5 1/2 years, I do a lot of my own trimming & I have a strong belief that my horse's long-term soundness and health benefit greatly because they are not shod. However if my horse was in discomfort as it sounds like the OPs horse is and would be made more comfortable by a set of shoes to see them through a rough patch where there are adverse factors at play that set her up to be footsore, I would have no problem whatsoever shoeing her.
 
Forgot to add - for the OP, if it's the hammering you're worried about, some farriers fit glue-on shoes. I knew a horse who tried these years ago & one of them lasted less than 24 hours, but the ones you can get now sound a lot better and should last a good few weeks ;) Hoof casts might also be worth a go but one mare who I know ended up with raging thrush under them so I'm a little sceptical about them.
 
Spinal Tap said:
I haven't said that these horses are hopping lame, these are horses that are pretty much rock crunching all winter but which become sensitive on certain going when the grass flushes in spring. In this instance, yes you do what you can to control the diet of your horse such that it is rock crunching again, but that can be very difficult to impossible. All these horses are quite old & prone to stiffness, so keeping them in to avoid the grass is not a good idea. Even when muzzled they are sufficiently sensitive to the grass for it to make them footy........etc
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It's my personal belief that because the shoe reduces the blood supply to the foot you actually get a lower level of toxin delivery, and that (rather than the shoe simply masking the pain) a shod horse will not actually get the low grade laminitis and sole sensitivity that it would barefoot. In that case, shoeing for the summer is a valid strategy. I still have concerns about liver toxicity and general health, and it needs a sharp eyed owner to spot the early signs of a full blown acute attack in a shod horse, but on the whole I think it's better than a sore footed horse all summer long.

OP your mare sounds as if she is grass and sugar sensitive if she genuinely has thin soles after 3 years barefoot. How is her weight?
 
Oberon said:
If she is very uncomfortable it may be worth considering shoes until you can get her diet right and then start again when she is ready. I am concerned that making changes to her current diet with a foal at foot may be the wrong thing to do at present. The main focus has to be to ensure she is not in pain. Shoes won't help in the long run but they may offer some relief at present.
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I would be very very wary of putting shoes on a mare who has a foal at foot - far too great a risk of injury to the foal IMO
 
mrdarcy said:
Properly fitted boots don't twist, split, break, rub or fall off - but you do need to get the fit right.
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Therein lies the problem. My old horse's front feet were over 8 inches wide and no hoof boots would fit him, only Boas would fit his hind feet and they would both rub and fall off and the grip was so bad that he did Bambi impressions on wet ground, but they were the only choice I had (try galloping or jumping in boggy going with Boas on and watch them fly ;)). Last time I checked my current horse's feet were too big for everything except G2s, Boas and regular Easiboots, I have all three and none of them fit too well, the G2s in particular end up pointing 90 degrees to where they should be pointing. I'm not going to change the shape of her feet to fit the boot, so I'm a bit stuck really if I want to use boots.

As for broken boots - one of my friends has an extensive collection. They do wear out and break if you give them enough use. I managed to break their Renegades when jump ing their horse in them - that was an expensive jump alright :o

I'm sure that there are people out there who have a wonderful time with their hoof boots, and that's brilliant. Hopefully as the designs improve then things will get better still. However up to now my experience of them is that they aren't cheap, aren't necessarily very hardwearing, it can be a PITA to find ones that actually suit your horse & the work it does, and constantly checking the horse's feet and then occasionally playing 'hunt the hoofboot' is not great fun. Life's too short - horses are meant to be fun & in my book barefoot is a means to an end not an end in itself, so I would certainly seriously consider shoeing my horse if the only other alternative to keep her comfortable in work was hoof boots.
 
Spinal Tap said:
Therein lies the problem. My old horse's front feet were over 8 inches wide and no hoof boots would fit him, only Boas would fit his hind feet and they would both rub and fall off and the grip was so bad that he did Bambi impressions on wet ground, but they were the only choice I had (try galloping or jumping in boggy going with Boas on and watch them fly ;)). Last time I checked my current horse's feet were too big for everything except G2s, Boas and regular Easiboots, I have all three and none of them fit too well, the G2s in particular end up pointing 90 degrees to where they should be pointing. I'm not going to change the shape of her feet to fit the boot, so I'm a bit stuck really if I want to use boots.

As for broken boots - one of my friends has an extensive collection. They do wear out and break if you give them enough use. I managed to break their Renegades when jump ing their horse in them - that was an expensive jump alright :o

I'm sure that there are people out there who have a wonderful time with their hoof boots, and that's brilliant. Hopefully as the designs improve then things will get better still. However up to now my experience of them is that they aren't cheap, aren't necessarily very hardwearing, it can be a PITA to find ones that actually suit your horse & the work it does, and constantly checking the horse's feet and then occasionally playing 'hunt the hoofboot' is not great fun. Life's too short - horses are meant to be fun & in my book barefoot is a means to an end not an end in itself, so I would certainly seriously consider shoeing my horse if the only other alternative to keep her comfortable in work was hoof boots.
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I agree it is harder to find good boots for the bigger footed horse and of course they wear out if you use them a lot! Bit like horse shoes. But I did a 50 mile race ride this last weekend in a set of Easyboot Gloves and all four boots are still good for more miles yet. Our riding time was 5 and a half hours, all the boots stayed on for the entire ride and we were going at some speed, and not a single rub at the end - especially impressive given my horse has very sensitive skin and used to get rubs from brushing boots! I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on our barefoot philosophy - barefoot is an end in itself to me as I bellieve it is kinder, healthier and all in all essential for the best way in managing the whole horse. Yes horses are meant to be fun but if I had a horse than needed to step back in work because he wasn't coping at a certain level barefoot or in boots then I would rather do that than put shoes on and look for the cause... which as we know is 99/100 down to diet.
 
mrdarcy said:
I would be very very wary of putting shoes on a mare who has a foal at foot - far too great a risk of injury to the foal IMO
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Front shoes are perfectly acceptable as long as the foal is now a few months old.

As for soles thickening with shoes on - no, I'm sure they don't.

However, this horse is in pain, has coffin joint disease and paper thin soles - I really is a no brainer to put shoes on - however temporarily - to alleviate the pain.

Once the foal is weaned then look at the situation again with regards shoes off and diet adjustment. But for the moment the most important thing is management.
 
There are a couple of themes within this thread that it might be helpful to pull together.

If I understand it correctly:

The horse has existing hoof problems which have been diagnosed (arthritic changes)
There may be other problems not diagnosed (laminitis or LGL)
The horse appears to have thin soles, which may or may not have been made worse by inappropriate trimming by previous farrier
The horse has a foal at foot
There may be dietary issues

Putting a shoe on this foot won't help any of these. It could make matters worse, by encouraging the sole to get thinner, by numbing the foot, predisposing the horse to hurt herself by accident. Equally because a shod horse has reduced feeling in their feet the mare is more likely to accidently injure her foal (by stepping on it for example because she is less aware of where her feet are.) A shoe won't fix the laminitis, although it may mask the symptoms and it won't fix the arthritis either, but it will prevent the horse from growing the foot she needs to help deal with the arthritis. And by reducing the ability of the hoof to function naturally and reducing the blood supply you risk making things worse.

So if the horse is in pain put on boots. I know some have found that it is hard to find boots to fit large hoofed horses. But we don't know if this is an issue for this horse and in any case EasyCare has introduced a boot especially for this type of situation. http://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot_rx/easyboot_rx.aspx Please note I am not a rep for EasyCare nor do I sell their products. But I have used them successfully for c.20 years.

And as to wear and tear, if they fit they last for ages and this mare is with foal at foot so is unlikely to be out eventing/hunting etc in the immediate future, so not really a major concern. Boots are much cheaper than shoes (if you know how to fit them). So get a competent trimmer to help.
 
Putting a shoe on this foot won't help any of these. It could make matters worse, by encouraging the sole to get thinner, by numbing the foot, predisposing the horse to hurt herself by accident.
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Are you actually serious????

I dispair. You're all barking................
 
amymay said:
Are you actually serious????

I dispair. You're all barking................
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This is why I don't go on barefoot forums, I would probably get banned for being a barefoot person who sometimes suggests to people that having their horses shod isn't a bad idea :o
 
Taking everything into account I think this is the best course of action;

1. Trimmer is coming on Monday to trim and measure for hoof boots.
2. Farrier is visiting the yard on Thursday so I have left him a message to see if he will attempt front shoes. If this works, they will remain on for the short term.
3. Once the foal is weaned I will change her diet and take it from there to get her happily barefoot.

Again, thank you all for you replies and suggestions. It has been very helpful. I do feel 'lost' and confused, losing a lot of sleep!

I will still add some photos and keep you updated on how she progresses (fingers crossed).
 
MissCandy said:
Taking everything into account I think this is the best course of action;

1. Trimmer is coming on Monday to trim and measure for hoof boots.
2. Farrier is visiting the yard on Thursday so I have left him a message to see if he will attempt front shoes. If this works, they will remain on for the short term.
3. Once the foal is weaned I will change her diet and take it from there to get her happily barefoot.

Again, thank you all for you replies and suggestions. It has been very helpful. I do feel 'lost' and confused, losing a lot of sleep!

I will still add some photos and keep you updated on how she progresses (fingers crossed).
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All sounds very sensible. Just remember, you're trimmer can't trim if front shoes are going on.
 
amymay said:
All sounds very sensible. Just remember, you're trimmer can't trim if front shoes are going on.
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She can't trim a few days before shoes go on? I thought that would be best as she is due for a trim and if for whatever reason the farrier can't get shoes on later in the week, she will already have had a trim. I didn't want to cancel the trimmer because I want her to measure for boots while she doesn't have shoes on, so I can have them ready if shoes don't work. Does that make sense?
 
amymay said:
No, you must let the farrier do that in order to prepare the foot for the shoe.
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I meant as well as the farrier timming? - still no? Best to wait for Farrier and if no joy, try to get trimmer out week after?

How will it affect her having a trim, followed by another trim for shoes and shoes a few days later - just pointless?
 
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