At a loss of what to do with 'difficult' mare, ideas?

[chaps89]

Evening.
I apologise in advance, this will be long but me & the owner of the horse concerned are at our wits ends as to what to do so are open to any ideas in case we've missed something.

I have been sharing a mare for just under 2 years now.
Initially, for about the first 8 or 9 months I never had a single problem with her, would happily get her in on her own in a head-collar (subsequently found out her owner only got her out in a Be Nice) & go out hacking no problems at all.
However, in April last year we lost her half brother and since then me & her owner have hit no end of problems.
To bring her in, she requires bridle, side reins & roller. At her worst she has needed the farmer (who she adores) and her owner to bring her in as well as this get up.
She will just throw herself on the ground, spin around/over you or rear (baby rears, never full up ones) Sometimes you will almost be at the gate when she starts this, other times it is almost as soon as she has been caught.
Once in she will be fine- tho she lets you know when she is ready to go back out & it is normally best to do so pronto.

To ride she can be similar- really quite nappy, and she spins- but only ever to the left. If you're successful in blocking her or ask her to turn back to the right she threatens to rear. They are never fast, put-you-on-the-floor spins, just sheer naughtiness of I don't want to, so you won't make me.

We have tried alsorts.
- Calmers (normal magnesium ones & vet prescribed ones)
- Bringing in just for feeding then turning back out
- Different hacking routes (we are fairly limited in hacking as she is kept near Hounslow West London)
- Schooling (no school, but 2 schooling areas) If you can get her there she will normally be ok.
- Bringing her in with treats/bribery
- We even went and bought a companion pony for her in September (she lives in a mixed herd of approx 20 horses but we wondered if she missed being one of a pair when it came to being handled as it were) He is a saint, but has no effect on her (typically)
- Hacking alone & in company (better in company but have limited opportunities to hack with some-one else on a horse. A person on the ground or the companion being led or long reined makes beggar all difference)
- Change in scenery- at Christmas she came to me for 2 weeks (with the intention of proper schooling & jumping, however she got away from me during one of her antics in the field the day before she came to me & took a fall in the field, checked her, she seemed fine but the lorry journey aggravated it & she came off the box with a huge leg so had 2 weeks box rest & in-hand walking instead) She was marginally better than at her 'home' but still naughty.
- Different grazing fields- they have summer & winter grazing at her yard, she is marginally better in the summer field but not much.
- Instructors riding her- they can win the battles but she still tries it on, the longest argument lasting over 2 hours with a pro rider- they only needed her to go another 100 yards then she was done!
- Taking her out for 'parties', she loves dressage so last year we did a few unaffil. events with her, in some she was lovely, one she was horrid and I had to retire mid test. Also taken her out hacking in an area she's been to before with my horse (who she knows but no longer lives with) and she was tricky then too.
- Ground work - when she's not throwing herself about her manners are impeccable & she is normally very spacially aware, so although we've worked on ground work, if she's being good it's not something that can be worked on, but when she decides she can't/won't do something all manners go out of the window, and frankly I am surprised no-one has been seriously hurt yet as she will just flatten you.

The only thing that changed was losing her brother, and she saw the body before he was taken away.
She was also used to going off for events for a few days and leaving him behind and vice-versa and even on a day-to-day basis being done separately to her brother was never an issue.

If it helps to give her history, she is a 14.2hh mare, tb/pony cross, she was an orphan foal, who found a foster mare but the mares owners wouldn't let her owner come back to collect her so she had a fairly traumatic weaning being 'stolen' back in the middle of the night
At about 5 years old she had a fairly major surgery on one of her front legs due to bone chips and a years box rest, otherwise pretty healthy. Competed up to elementary dressage & 50km endurance rides and was previously quite a nice 'person' as it were, according to her owner, she's always had this streak but it would only happen occasionally (as I say in 8 months of riding her about twice a week and regular feeding I never had an issue) rather than be the norm for her. She's now coming up to 11 years old.
Normal physical healthy checks & tack checks are fine (as a result of her fall at Christmas she sustained arthritic changes to her hock but that has made no change to her behaviour. She is ridden in a neue schule snaffle, flash noseband & running martingale, same as she always has)

I rode her on Saturday and she was like the old horse, came in beautifully with just me leading her in a bridle, no side reins, stood nicely to be groomed & have a cuddle & rode out lovely with 1 minor spin. Today, her owner was going to box her down to friends in Devon for a week away to try giving her something fun to do but after 3 hours gave up trying to get her in (and her owner is most definitely not feeble)

Please, any ideas as to what we can try next?!

Thankyou!

 

[kerrieberry2]

have you tried putting her and the companion gelding in a field together, with no others with them? it might be that she just doesn't get on with the new companion and you need to find another horse for her to create a bond with?

my mare has got worse in big herds as she's got old. I was on a farm and had about 8 in a herd until the farmer died, so i moved and she was out with 10 others, she made friends with a gelding straight away, he kind of protected her but after a few months he left the yard and she was so depressed, for about 18 months i kept her there thinking she'd be okay but she never settled again, she always grazed away from the others, which isnt like her, so i moved her back to the old farm where only 1 horse was remaining from her original herd, he was out alone and was so pleased to see her again, for the first time in almost 2 yrs she was happy again,.

is there another horse in the herd that she connects with a bit better? could those 2 go out together for a while and see if she improves then?

sounds like she's had a really hard time with it and losing her best friend has obviously been really hard on her! makes me feel really sad! I hope you can get it sorted!?

 

[Littlelegs]

I'd try & pair her up with a real alpha mare to try & teach her some manners. Not saying that will cure all, but could help. I'd also consider getting in someone like Richard Maxwell or Kelly marks. I know you've had all checks done but any chance she's re-injured herself if she's always launching herself on the floor etc?

 

[Ginger Bear]

I would contact Donna blinman , vet in Newmarket, her partner Patrick is a horse behaviour therapist and together they are a fantastic team.. If you're really at the end of your tether & u want to know the cause and see if u can make one last attempt at sorting your mare.. Take her to them..

 

[Pearlsasinger]

This sounds to me like a classic attachment problem. The poor animal was 'weaned' abruptly and then formed an attachment to her half-brother who then 'left' her. Could you put her with just one other horse who she relates well to, in order to try to foster another attachment?
What is she fed on?

 

[jeeve]

We we bought a mare about 6 years ago, we bought her home, and she was nappy, lugging to the left always, rearing and so on. She was bought as a child's pony. My three children had ridden her twice at her home. (We did not hack her out though).

In the end I left her for about 6 months unridden, and then started taking her out to a NH group. The NH instructor gave me a few tips, she also just seeemed to start enjoying being out and doing something and slowly became less nappy.

I then took her out to a few adult riding days and had an older person ride her at pony club, once she got used to being ridden at a few different locations regularly, she became less of a handful, and my oldest son started riding her.

Now all kids can and do ride her and she is a good little pc pony. However, just recently she has started flipping out on the odd occasion. I think that I will start riding her again myself. i think she is easily stressed out, and reacts like this through stress. My daughter who mostly rides her can get a little anxious about getting something right - I think this is stressing the mare.

I am giving my daughter another horse to ride, and will ride the mare myself. But since I raised this matter with my daughter the days she is really quiet and relaxed , the mare does not have these issues. It is hard to explain, but she seems to pick up on some subtle cues that are not intended from the rider.

It is really important not to get into a battle with her (our mare), but to just takes things slow and quiet and wait it out.

She can also be difficult to handle on the ground, she rears and pulls back when she gets anxious, she does not handle vets, worming, washing/hosing or clipping very well at all. She was a bad trailer loader when i got her (rearing), but with the help of NH techniques I had that sorted quickly and never have an issue with that, she loads herself if you point at the float.

Given that some of what you are going through is not dissimilar to what we went through (and that the behaviour was apparently triggered by changes in environment), I thought that you might like to know someone else has been through the same sort of thing.

I would suggest that if you have a NH handler/instructor that you maybe speak to them. I would also suggest that you drop things back as low key as you can. When I started riding my mare - I started her in a NH halter not a bridle and then progressed to a bridle once she was no longer nappy or rearing/lugging. She was ridden by the kids in a kimblewick, but is now ridden in a snaffle.

Learning on the ground and ridden yields, riding in a large paddock with a NH halter, allowing her to go forward (anywhere as long as she went forward), using hindquarter yields/disengagement of hindquarters each time she napped/reared/lugged and then go forward again in any direction as long as she would go forward all helped fix this pony.

I have taught my 12 year old daughter these things and she has success when she is calm and quiet and implements these strategies, but she is only 12 and some days she is not always in the right mind set.

 

[starryeyed]

I haven't got any ideas other than what's been said - she's obviously had a very traumatic past with horses close to her being taken away, so is going to be finding the loss of her brother extremely hard and is probably worried about getting attached to another horse incase the same thing happens - is it at all possible for her and the companion to be kept alone together, completely away from the rest of the herd so that they can bond "alone" - if it's just those two in together then she can't really ignore him. Could be worth a try..

But really just wanted to say a quick well done to you both for obviously trying very hard to make her happy again, so many people just give up on their horses when they start to behave like this, or pass on the problem to someone else, so it's really nice to hear that you're really trying for her - I really hope you find a solution so that things can go back to how they used to be, I'm sure you'll get loads more suggestions from the wise people of hho x

 

[chaps89]

Ugh, typed out a nice reply then lost it all!

Separate fencing (for her & companion) isn't an option, the yard is very basic, in as much as it is 2 big fields and that's it. Whilst we could probably ask to tape a section off, mare has no respect for electric fencing (even when plugged in) so wouldn't stay put and would still be close to herd so not sure it would enforce a relationship with the companion. Equally, choosing another horse from the herd to try and pair her up with wouldn't be possible (there is quite a few yard politics if you get my drift... hence why we went out and bought our own second pony to try this)
She has been on that yard at least 6 years now and the herd is fairly well established.

Littlelegs- you raise an interesting point, a friend asked at the weekend if her brother was more dominant over her than we realised & he kept her in check as it were, and now he's gone she's just pushing the boundaries.
However, I would say she is a dominant type (she needs firm but fair handling *always*) and of the few horses above her in the pecking order, 2 of them are in lurrrve with her so would be no good. And she is top mare of them all. However, it may be worth looking at, I know the owner is has various friends with their own horses & land so maybe a summer stay away might be something to look into, as not an option at current yard.

littlelegs & ginger bear - In regards to health we use a FANTASTIC vet who has checked her over on numerous occasions (prior to this all starting and on a regular basis since & has in fact known her since a foal) She does get worse when she comes into season so we always take the pressure off her a bit then but otherwise, other than the leg injury we know about (and that started after the problems began, and in fact as a result of one of her temper tantrums) physically she has been given the all clear by both vet, farrier & physio. How she is now is just like her temperamental streak that she had before but on steroids! So I don't think owner is looking to go down that route. Thank you for that suggestion tho.

I may suggest some-one like RM or KM to come out, originally owner wasn't keen as was hoping her instructor would be able to help, but another perspective doesn't hurt, plus they could come to us (you can bet your bottom dollar tho it would be on a day when the mare has a good day!)

Pearlsasinger- That's why we bought the companion pony (3yr old new forest, not afraid of standing up for himself but she is definitely more dominant than him) They go in the lorry together out & about (when mare can be persuaded to do so), have dinner together, get groomed together (away from the other horses), sometimes he's led in hand whilst I ride the mare etc but there isn't much else we can do I don't think to try to force them to form a relationship? I do absolutely see your point tho and I do very much suspect it's all stemmed from attachment/grievance problems. (Tho as I say, owner was always very careful to make sure her & half brother did things apart to try & prevent a problem & when both were alive we had no issue with separating them)
Feed is plain chaff, moody mare supplement, fibre cubes & a balancer (grazing is very poor- my horse got quite ill there which is why I moved) & danilon. So nothing in there that should fizz her up, and the same feed she has always had (tho when competing heavily she would have additional cereals added) Not sure which calmer she is currently using (if any). She is going to be without food this week tho as after today performance, owner has gone away anyway & me & another lady on the yard are just going to keep an eye on the 2 of them till she's back, so we'll see if a week without a feed makes any change.

Thanks for the ideas so far!

 

[chaps89]

Jeeve- I think you're almost certainly right about the mare picking it up from the owner, she is always far more naughty when it is important she comes out ok (farrier visit, lorrying her over to the vet for jabs, loading her up to come & hack out with me etc) but not sure how I can tactfully explain this to her owner!!! Owner has happily said mare behaves better for me, but that's probably because mare only see's me once, maybe twice a week now, owner has to sort her out every day.
(When I took her home at Christmas, mum eventually banned me from doing the in-hand walking with her as she was getting so unpredictable. Once she gets wound up she loses all sensibility, she missed a car by less than an inch which is what got my mum, if she doesn't care about landing on a tonne of metal car she is not going to care about standing on me. She still tried it on with my mum but mum just about coped using a bridle & only walked her along a hedge line so she had nowhere to spin. I've tried getting her in at her yard by walking her around the field perimeter but getting her there in an open space is a huge challenge!)
As I mentioned, doing ground work with her when she's good is of no benefit to how she is when she's naughty.
When she has her funny turns, I've tried reacting, being the bigger/dominant person (this was a baaaad choice, made her much worse) and ignoring her completley. Ignoring her seems to work best, taking a 'yeah, whatever' approach seems to make her go, ok then, not worth it (even if it is just for a stride or two!) She used to always be led in a Be Nice very effectively but we had to up it to more severe measures of the bridle/side reins for safety sake- hers and ours. Riding wise, if you can get her going forward, she will go very nicely and I already do a lot of things to make her think/keep her occupied when I ride- if I school, it's transitions & lateral work, out hacking, its transitions & forwards, don't care if its endurance extend, so long as it's forwards and not taking a car out in the process. But I don't exactly feel comfortable hammering her round the roads!!!

I will look into NH practitioners tho, anythings worth a try at this stage. Thanks for the suggestion

Starry-eyed - thankyou for your words of support, it's so difficult to know what to do for the best, I doubt we could even give her away in her current state and her owner is of the opinion if she won't do something with the mare herself she won't ask/make anyone else do it unless they're a Pro & being paid to do so, so no danger of her being passed on at all, plus she does mean an awful lot to both of us, it would be really lovely for the owner & the mare if we could get the old horse back- as the owner put it, it's like she's lost 2 horses, as when the old boy went, we mentally/psychologically seemed to lose this girl too.

 

[Theocat]

Riding wise, if you can get her going forward, she will go very nicely and I already do a lot of things to make her think/keep her occupied when I ride- if I school, it's transitions & lateral work, out hacking, its transitions & forwards, don't care if its endurance extend, so long as it's forwards and not taking a car out in the process. But I don't exactly feel comfortable hammering her round the roads!!!

Does the increase in bad behaviour tie in to a drop in work load? It sounds as though she's doing less than she used to, and it's interesting that she settles when you work her - maybe she's bored? I used to know a mare who was an absolute saint, as long as she got a couple of hours work a day ... any less than that and she could get dangerous.

It sounds as though you're trying really hard with her - I hope you find a solution

 

[Littlelegs]

From what you've said about her being boss now her brother is gone, I wonder if the stress of being left in charge as it were, combined with the personal attachment is a contributing factor? The attachment issue could also explain why she is difficult when bringing in, in effect you are removing her from her 'duty'. Realise that's not characteristic of a normal alpha mare, but could be a reason given her weaning & loss of her brother. If the owner can find a friend with a real alpha mare I think it could relax her a lot if she's no longer on guard, as well as be a good influence when handling. By alpha don't mean one that's just more dominant, an older nanny type who is used to dealing with unruly youngsters. We have a pony who was weaned at 3 months & kept in an isolated field alone till she was a yearling. She had numerous issues, all stemming from being left with nobody to look out for her. Sympathetic handling, & the fact she took to my non threatening little girl has helped, but really my older alpha mare is to thank for most of the changes.

 

[Sologirl]

I would contact Donna blinman , vet in Newmarket, her partner Patrick is a horse behaviour therapist and together they are a fantastic team.. If you're really at the end of your tether & u want to know the cause and see if u can make one last attempt at sorting your mare.. Take her to them..

Sorry to butt in, but I used to work with her, lovely lady!