At the risk of sounding ignorant.....

nikicb

nikicb

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please will someone tell me (preferably in words of one syllable) all about the theory of parelli. I am not trying to cause an argument here, but I have (a) never used it, (b) know anyone that uses it, (c) ever seen anyone use it/know about it. I have had horses for many years, but am very much from the old school of horsemanship which has has always served me well. But I am quite happy to be enlightened as to some of these 'new methods' and why they may or may not work. I understand that I may be opening myself to all sorts of attack here, but other than looking on Wiki, I am really very ignorant of the pros/cons of parelli and other such methods and I would appreciate more information so I can judge for myself. Thanks in advance. :)
 
Erm, good luck you're going to get some interesting answers!

Basically, I know very little about parelli but have done quite alot with my youngster based on Kelly Marks (and the general NH principles).

Some of it is complete cr*p, some of it is quite useful. Its definitely useful if you're reached a stalemate where your normal methods aren't working. For me I've found it useful with a youngster cos its all based on body language and herd behaviour. Alot of it has really worked with my baby.

Saying that, I know NOTHING about parelli apart from that awful video which was basically horse abuse.

I think its best to be open minded about these things. People will rip you a new one for saying you follow it, but for some people it has totally changed their horses and their lives. xxxx
 
Ok well there is lots of stuff, but I'll give you examples of a few things I've used from the Kelly Marks stuff (who was taught by Monty Roberts).

I did some "join up", only in her field, basically standing facing slightly away from her, shoulders hunched, when she came over to me I gave her lots and lots of lovely pats and rubs. If she did something naughty like nip or get too close into my personal space, then you puff up, yell, wave arms, basically force her away from you. Until she starts to make apologetic movements like licking lips etc, you keep forcing her away from you, mimicking head mare in the herd forcing them out until they behave. The point is that you make yourself head of pack.

I've also spent alot of time with her touching everywhere on her. Inside of lips, inside of ears, all over her body. Basically because you're allowed to touch her wherever and whenever on your terms. Also extremely helpful if they're injured.

The books are worth a read if you're interested, particularly many of their case studies are really interesting. xxx
 
fumanchu said:
1. total
2. bollox
3. taken
4. as
5. read
6. by
7. the
8. gullible
Click to expand...

You see, this is my problem. I totally sympathise that this is your feeling, but as someone who knows nothing about it, it doesn't help me to evaluate it for myself. I really am not trying to be antagonistic, I just do not know what it entails (and I don't think I am alone).
 
When you finally get an answer that actually describes what it is (sorry but I don't know enough about it to explain it other than that the carrot stick figures highly in it) you will probably recognise all the good bits, that are worthwhile doing, to be things you have done for years anyway with your old school methods. All the different systems are made up of the same 'best bits' (the old ways that have been used by real horsemen since time immemorial) and then the bits that make them individual - the 'tricks'!

There seems to be this idea that 'traditional' horsemanship is all about beating the horse when in fact that behaviour was, and still is, simply bad horsemanship. I do think this idea is encouraged by some of the NH advocates! True horsemen respect their horses and wouldn't need to hit them, they would use body language and a growl to get the behaviour they wanted and 'proper' schooling to get the behaviour right under saddle.
 
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A friend of mine whos has horses all of his life got the DVD and book for christmas and reading it thoroughly three times attempted some of the basic less wacky tecniques with one of his more sensible youngsters. The results were a spectacular disaster, but each to their own!
 
I just think the very first principle ideas of NH, were just an American sell out of an already European idea [ie, common sense and training], to the public tbh. An American enlightened with the european way of training 'back in the day' [Ie, just taking it steady,patience and common sense] in comparison to what was deemed the western way back then [Ie, tacking a horse up and 'sitting it out' or pillaring it]. Etc.

The original idea, being the good idea of patience, body language and understandance of the horse which a lot did use anyway, always was and still is the basis for all good training - but only then did it get a 'Brand' on it for those unfamiliar with it [ie, the 'old' ways] who were suddenly given this huge 'new amazing way' of trainng horses. To which a handful of people saw huge business opportunity from varying it and commercialising it into a public spectacle.

If you take anything [Monty Roberts or similar],the original base foundations from NH [when you take away all the gimmicks and extra's which have been added to it over the years] are very much just common sense, manners, understanding, behaviour and patience. Which is prevelant and necessary for ANY type of training on any horse, allbeit a driving horse, trick pony, field companion, show jumper, etc.
So yes, some people may see some of the things we do as part of training and accuse it of being NH...when I'll be damned if it is, when in fact it really is just common sense [ie, having them back up on command first time, or moving away, etc. Ask once softly, if ignored, press a little firmer, if still ignored make it more aware of the command etc until it does it first off at the softest touch/command.]
Or riding with no tack/bareback/etc...someone mentioned that the other day as did the cobs in their fields at liberty [bareback, no tack] and had them schooling as they would normally with no difference. Someone mentioned about it being NH! Hmmf. No not really, I just expect them to go exactly the same with tack or without as it's not the tack that the aids should be given down as such so it really shouldn't make a difference to them. I ask, they do it. No arguments, no slacking - just manners. Doesn't make it NH ;) Just a well trained horse!

Only my thoughts though.
 
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I've never used it, being much more "traditional" in background but, having said that, some of the stuff it teaches, about personal space for instance, seems to be common sense - for those who know about horses

It seems to be quite useful in terms of making those horse owners with a genuinely non-horsy background "think" about horse behaviour and preventing the worst anthromorphism

I'm not immpressed by the party tricks used, (as seen on TV) but the basic principles seem sound so far as I can see, in terms of respecting the horse and ensuring the horse respects the handler.

I'm sure I'll get shouted down, but this is just as I've seen it, as a non-using outsider!
 
Bugger, I added a part after but time expired when I went to post it. Not annoying much!

To put it in short term to save writing it all out again. It's not NH I have an issue with, but the brands as now it's nothing more than trick ponies and circus acts to me with all the gimmicks and games. The core foundations of NH, do have a part in everything. As it's repeatedly said, it's just common sense. Observing many NH clinics who hired the facilities at college, it was pretty much an arena full of people paying for a day out to play with there horse in an arena full of 'toys'; balls, sticks, see saws, platforms, dangly doorways, etc. The horses, on the whole,looked utterly bemused by the whole thing but the people seemed to be enjoying themselves, so who was I to judge. It seemed to be their source of enjoyment with their horses. My enjoyment, is hunting during winter and hacking through endless showgrounds during summer - maybe not their idea of fun in return? Just comes down to personal preference, like anything else in life. :)
 
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Well I have never done Parelli, but I have watched the loading DVD. From what I could understand, it is using body language to make the horse move where you want it to. Now this is fine when used with common sense, but the horse in the DVD looked confused and when it didn't move he started whacking it with the leather end of the long rope until it moved. He then proceeded to whack it onto the trailer. It did load itself fairly quickly, but it looked stressed and scared - very much "if I go in here really fast then I don't get hit anymore"

That was my take on it, and it really put me off doing anything Parelli endorsed. I can get my horse to move over without whacking him on the ass with a rope!
 
Thanks for all of your input - I am beginning to 'see the light' as it were. OK, with my horses, children (2 boys, aged 13 and 7), dogs, cats, and dare I add goldfish and husband, I work on the same principle. They are all perfectly entitled to their own opinion and character, but manners are all important!! I spend much of my life being complimented on the 'behaviour' of my 'lot' so that's great. My old girl, (34 yr old 3/4 TB) is the best mannered horse I have ever known, but noone would ever dare tell her to do anything, they would only ask her. I guess this is all part of the whole NH/parelli thing, I regard myself as a fairly quiet/peaceful person, but when it comes to something I believe in (e.g. manners) I do not back down. I have described myself as aggressively defensive if that makes sense. Therefore I guess these methods of horsemanship have a place. Does that make sense? But in now way is there any room to abuse horses by beating them into submission, that bit doesn't make sense to me.
 
Parelli is the surname of a married couple who sort of dance with horses and teach them to do horsey stuff like jump, dressage and load into a trailer using mind control or something very similar. And now it's a 'technique' called Parelli.

You should book tickets and go see them at the NEC Arena. They're there every year.

It's actually very effective and amazing to watch.

Ignore everyone on here - they're just incredibly bitter because they didn't think of it first :p
 
Okay my summary - I'll try to keep it brief.

Parelli - a brand name for a form of Natural Horsemanship (NH). Often all NH gets banded together under Parelli because that's the biggest brand. However other schools of natural horsemanship do things differently.

Natural Horsemanship is fundamentally trying to interract with, and train a horse on a level they can understand. To do this people are very aware of and use body language, as this is the way horses' natural instincts tell them to interact (with other horses). Its also about leadership: you behaving as a herd leader (or boss in some cases) and the horse being respectful of/submissive to that. Natural Horsemanship done well prepares a horse mentally for their working life: whereas traditional (by that I mean for sake of argument BHS, although thats raising a whole new debate) methods tend to be more focussed on preparing the horse's body and kinda hoping the mind will come too.

Good horsemen tend to use NH principals without even thinking about it, although they may swear they don't. IMO, good schools of NH don't claim to have reinvented the wheel, just want to bring back to life skills which had faded into the background, to the rest of us who aren't natural, or who wish to learn a bit quicker than simply a lifetime's experience.

Monty Roberts/Kelly Marks: Monty is considered the original horse whisperer, or natural horsemanship expert. He observed the fact that a naughty young horse will be sent away from the herd as punishment (alone = higher risk of being predated). Said horse would show signs of submission and ask to come back, and the horse who sent him away allows him back, and therefore is in the position of a leader. Monty developed a technique called Join up based on this. Kelly marks is his head instructor in the UK.

Parelli is another american export, but involves the famous carrot stick "the seven games", which are various exercises which are claimed to improve your relationship with your horse. They work "on-line" or at liberty, and don't advocate the use of bits until you are at a stage of refining your ridden work. From what I can gather they work very much on a Domination form of leadership, whereas other schools of NH are similar but work from a gentler form of leadership...

The most distinguised of which is Mark Rashid's passive leadership.

There are many others each doing it slightly differently, but these are some core ones. Hope that helps :)
 
BTW the reason I think many dislike Parelli is because its very commercialised, and in order to reach the masses it has done so, but at the cost of quality tuition, (compare learning to ride a horse based on a DVD and in a lesson) so we have idiots who don't really know what they are doing messing up horses, all in the name of "NH".

Its also videos like the one on the other thread, and people's experiences when they see the Parellis live, which makes me think that they have lost the essence of what they were once about. The Horse has become a cog in the marketing machine, rather than being put first as the very focus of what it should all be about. in my humble opinion anyway.

Anyhooo I've typed far too much on this subject, so I'll end it with a link to a good book which explains the different major schools of thought on NH very well:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Groundwork-Training-Your-Horse-Exercises/dp/0715324411/ref=pd_sim_b_4#noop
 
i think others have summed it up well, but i will just add a little. NH tends to really concentrate on ground work, moreso than traditional schools. Ground work, not just lunging in aimless circles, helps to get the horse soft in body and mind, allowing him to be in a good place to learn and accept things we do with him. Like with a horse that is spooky, working him in higher energy situations like flag work, plastic bag on stick, may help him to tolerate scary thing better and build his trust in you. Groundwork is also good to get your horse really soft and light, and yielding so that they bend well on the ground and when ridden. Gadgets and pullies are rarely used to create bend, as with the right training any horse can be soft and yielding without restrictions. I think all good horsemen want this in a horse, but all use different routes to get there. Parelli is just one of those routes.
 
If anyone has the interest to read the books by Dr Robert M Miller they give an excellent, balanced view of natural horsemanship. I would recommmmend his book The Revolution In Horsemanship and From Heart To Hands , all available on Amazon.
 
Thank you so much to all who have taken the time to explain this so clearly. I certainly feel enlightened and hope others will. I understand totally about the point that good horsemanship will pull pieces from all these different schools of thought and try different things to solve different issues. I do like to have a good relationship with my horses, my aged mare is very much the ask not tell type and I guess I must have been doing some of these techniques through the years with her without knowing it, but I must say I have never liked the 'trick' aspect that some people train. I will certainly hunt out the books and websites referred to.
Thanks again :).
 
Some of the basic concepts are interesting I think and if you are interested and can get hold of it some of them could well be useful additions to you repertiore. Unfortunately it has been over commercialised, is very expensive, seems to lead to a shut down in personal analytical thinking and a slightly cult like following in some cases.
 
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