Attn: BethH, H's Mum, Dressage Babe, Halfpass etc ... KS/Behavioural

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Llwyncwn

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I posted a couple of weeks ago about a new horse on the yard with behavioural problems. After reading KS threads back to 2005 and all you girls having had these problems, I thought I would pick your brains
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Here is a link to my previous thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3324607/an/0/page/4#3324607

Cheryl, owners sister has been riding the horse for the last two weeks and he has been so good, improving each day since the chiro worked him two weeks ago. In fact, she even felt comfortable enough to canter him on Monday evening. Well, tonight she tacked him up and went to walk him up to the school and he went absolutely ballistic, bronking, all four feet leaving the ground. Thank heavens she was leading him and not on board! He managed to get away from her and continued bronking up the lane and back again and didnt stop until he got outside his stable where he stood shaking and bewildered. She took him back up the school where he did exactly the same on the lunge. Once the saddle was removed, he relaxed completely. Must add, Cheryl is experienced horse woman who has handled him with ultimate sensitivity (i.e. not a numpty
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).

He is being fed high oil/fibre diet, out all night on good grazing and in for a few hours during the day. His routine is never changed and he is so good to handle.

After 12 days of gentle work (10-20 mins max per night) he had his first day off work yesterday.

IS THIS KS ?

Help
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All replies would be gratefully received. Will be ringing the vets (again) first thing.

Helen x
 
It's hard to say "yes this is ks" without xrays/nerve blocks etc but I must say that the poor horse is exhibiting strong symptoms which would indicate ks! The explosive bucking and the general cold backed reactions are a bit of a give away - The pain for the horse is like an electric shock - which would be why the horse was shaken and shocked as it tried it's best to get away from the pain - I'd definitely get the vet out and get it checked over - you need it's back xraying IMHO.
Kate x
 
Oh blimey H - did this happen today? Hope Chez is OK and what a set back for poor Prince. Hadn't thought about ks but certainly seems to fit the expected symptoms. Poor boy - got fingers crossed. Funny Bethan didn't pick anything up? I would have thought ks would show up with an experienced back person??? Will it be x-rays now??? Hope to see you guys Friday just briefly and the first person who calls me peg leg, I'm reporting to Disability Rights!!!!!!!!!
 
1stly hope your friend and the horse are in 1 piece, from an awful start with the horse, it sounds as though you have been doing brilliantly to get as far as you have. For a reaction like that think I would definitely refer back to Vet or at least get your physio/osteo to have another look so can decide if needs referral back to vet, I know you have already thought of this but has saddle been checked, guess he is not being ridden in it but may be pinching withers or something daft to set him off?

He could just have something simple like a trapped nerve but the explosive behaviour out of nowhere can be a sign of KS or a back problem generally so should be investigated even if just for a matter of safety. I don't believe a horses reaction in this way especially if normally so well behaved, can be anything other than pain, unless it's something like a wasp sting????

Can the horse arch it's back upwards at all? Run your fingers along the gullet under his belly from between the front legs and when you get to the girth area push upwards and dig your fingertips in a bit, Ryan couldn't arch at all as the bones were clashing so was a good indicator! He would be great on a hack and then 45mins into it would just flip out, usually when short sharp hills were involved and he had to use his back end, he also used to fall out massively through his shoulders doing school work to avoid using back legs and if you pushed him on, into an outline would then have a tantrum. Saying that even as a 4yr old he had some major flip out moments, but because I had some help to bring him on from a fantastic instructor who rode him, he worked him through it and obviously managed to muscle him up enough to get him strong to support himself, but I did think I had bought the horse from hell, obviously didn't know what was wrong! It was odd because he was so lovely to handle, such a sweet person but turned into an absolute monster when you got on board, in retrospect he was clearly having some major panic attacks!

Would you say he is becoming more and more spooky, a bit more grumpy and a bit less tolerant? Ryan became a bit irritable, I think because he had constant low level nagging pain, the backs do/can deteriorate over time especially if not been worked constantly or correctly, Ryan started to really struggle when I was pregnant as I just couldn't do as much work to keep him fit, when the muscles stopped supporting his back it got a lot worse quickly and his behaviour then started to deteriorate massively too.

How old is the horse and is there anything else wrong with him that could give him a sore back??

Feel free to pm me if you want to ask anything else, but just to wish you the very best of luck as this little horse sounds as though he deserves to be happy and healthy after everything.
 
It does sound pretty similar to Spike.
He had some time off work and was an angel for the first few weeks. Then after being back in work for a few weeks the random flipping out started. Similar to bethH you could hack out for 45mins and he would be fine than all of a sudden he would just flip bolt and bronk and stand shaking similar to your chap.
I think with KS a small amount of time off allows the pain to settle and then
a few weeks back in work aggrevates it again.
I really would advise a return trip to the vets and demand to have back xrays done. When we first took Spike they couldn't advise that there was anything wrong and because we hadn't had him long they just tried putting it down to behaviour problems. We demanded the xrays and low and behold he ahd KS!!!
He has now been back in ridden work for 4 weeks and is a different horse.
If you have any questions please PM me.
 
Hi, Sorry only just found time to get on the computer! Right, having read both of your posts I called my husband to read it with me as I think you're aware he too is a Vet, he said he felt there was no question that the horse has a back problem especially after the 'crush' incident! He felt the horse should have been seen by the Vet before a Chiro was called in and would advise no hesitation in having him X-rayed but would go to an equine specialist for this ie Svend Kold @Willersley or somewhere the owner can trust their expertise.

From my point of view and owning a horse with kissing spine I would say it is quite likely from his behaviour that there could well be KS but there is also a possibility that when he was originally backed he could have had a bad experience from this and this can too cause them to behave in such a way that every time the saddle come towards him he remembers his backing experience. This depends on whether the owner knows who backed him and how he took to it?

I think, in a nut shell I would stop riding him for the time being, get the investigation done by an Equine Veterinary Specialist and take it from there. Good luck
 
Thank you all for your detailed responses, they make very interesting reading. Have now spoken to our vets who are an equine clinic and they wern't very impressed with my unqualified diagnosis
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They said that people use the words KS these days for anything back/behaviour related. Suggested buting him and continue to work him for a month and see how he is
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After a chat with Cheryl this morning, we are going to insist on x-rays (nerve blocks wouldnt work in this case). We are giving him bute atm simply because he is so tucked up after his 'electric shock' outburst.

Interestingly, the 'cattle crush' episode seems to have been the turning point for him as there was no problems whatsoever prior to this and he passed a 5* vetting. He is pulling himself up the hill to the school with his front end and not using his back end very much and he is carrying his tail very oddly high, even when relaxed in the field. There is some scarring on his hind legs from the 'incident' a few months ago.

Will keep you all posted on any progress, but would love to hear anyones comments, they all help.

Helen x
 
Hi DB
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I was still typing as you replied to my thread. Thank you for that.

I had the vet look at him before the chiro. Vet was out for another horse on the yard so I asked her opinion which was 'yes, there is back pain, dont put a saddle anywhere near him for at least a month and get his back checked out by chiro'. Chiro came, worked on him then got Cheryl to tack him up and ride him in the school
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I am only qualified to shovel poo so I kept my opinion to myself
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He had been going so well too, almost too good to be true.

Svend operated on Cheryl's WB a couple of years ago to remove floating pieces of bone from the hock. His partner, Ollie Crow (who operated on my mare 6 weeks ago to cut her anular ligament) comes down to our vet clinic on a regular basis to carry out surgery and it would be he who would operate if my theory is correct. If we get no joy from clinic then perhaps we could ask for a referral to Willersley.

Cheryl knows the place where Prince was originally broken in and she rode out with him on another horse - no sign of any bad attitude, tension or napping etc.

*I think, in a nut shell I would stop riding him for the time being, get the investigation done by an Equine Veterinary Specialist and take it from there. Good luck *

Absolutely DB. Thank you for your time and thank hubby on behalf of Prince
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Brilliant good for you, all fingers crossed and vibes being sent. By the way Svend operated on my horse at Willersley, can't recommend him and his team enough, your horse will be safe hands.
 
sending plenty of good vibes, my horse had op and they are great people at willersley and staff just as Beth said and for advice on her Beth has been great for me
all the best and let us know how it all goes
 
Thanks girls, Prince is going into our local clinic for x-rays and diagnostics. Svends partner, Ollie Crow will come here to operate if necessary, it wont be dont at Willersley (at this point).

I am such a pain in my vets bottoms, they hate it when I diagnose for them
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