Awful news

Pinkvboots

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There's no hard shoulder at all on the A9. Some bits of it are dual carriageway some bits are single lane each side. It's a horrible road to drive on at the best of times.

There were 2 lorries and the horse box involved. One lorry hit the horse box the other went into the back of that lorry. Lorry drivers drive too close behind each other too. You quite often see them trucking along the motorways with less than 3 meters between them.
Your so right about some lorries I see them tailgating all the time on the M25 its so dangerous.
 
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To be fair there is nothing to say that the driver was on his/her phone.
I always think the lessons from a accident can only be learnt once the investigation is complete and the facts have been established.
There isn't but to not see, and therefore drive straigth into, what must have been a 7.5t or bigger there must have been a serious distraction going on.. or god forbid, the lorry driver suffered ill health at a bad moment, but that doesn't explain the other lorry involved.
 

Mrs Jingle

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To be fair there is nothing to say that the driver was on his/her phone.
I always think the lessons from a accident can only be learnt once the investigation is complete and the facts have been established.
^^^^ this - an absolute tragedy for all involved but I do wish people wouldn't speculate and guess at exactly how it, or any other accident of this type happened. As for regaling the lorry driver, how do we know he was on his phone, how do we know he didnt have a stroke or heart attack etc. etc. Imagine how HIS family must feel if it was something along those lines, reading just what people would 'like to do to him' would be so traumatic for them.

As an aside, when I was in the Uk a couple of years back I was horrified to learn about this smart motor way system you have over there now. I could not believe what my brother was telling me, that all the lane safe'ish bit of road where you could pull over in an emergency have now gone and if you dont happen to be near one of the very occasional turn ins, you have to scramble up the bank and sit and wait for assistance. W the actual F is that idea all about? My heart was in my mouth for a good 100 miles or so, especially when we passed a small family car sitting there, and the family sitting high up on the bank with 3 toddlers with them. Who thought up that idea and thought that would improve safety?
 

Asha

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^^^^ this - an absolute tragedy for all involved but I do wish people wouldn't speculate and guess at exactly how it, or any other accident of this type happened. As for regaling the lorry driver, how do we know he was on his phone, how do we know he didnt have a stroke or heart attack etc. etc. Imagine how HIS family must feel if it was something along those lines, reading just what people would 'like to do to him' would be so traumatic for them.

As an aside, when I was in the Uk a couple of years back I was horrified to learn about this smart motor way system you have over there now. I could not believe what my brother was telling me, that all the lane safe'ish bit of road where you could pull over in an emergency have now gone and if you dont happen to be near one of the very occasional turn ins, you have to scramble up the bank and sit and wait for assistance. W the actual F is that idea all about? My heart was in my mouth for a good 100 miles or so, especially when we passed a small family car sitting there, and the family sitting high up on the bank with 3 toddlers with them. Who thought up that idea and thought that would improve safety?
Couldn’t agree more . These smart motorways are anything but smart . I’d love to meet the person who came up with this idea and find out what they where thinking .

I read the news on FB this morning , what an utterly tragic situation for all involved . I can’t imagine how they are all feeling after witnessing that . My heart goes out to them , I’m giving my lot extra hugs this morning 😞
 

flurrydor

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Too much conjecture and some wide of the mark. One lorry v Nick’s truck, driver of the lorry was possibly but not definitely seen on the phone. One human casualty was a passenger in the lorry and not the driver. Please be careful when commenting just in case those connected to such devastating loss read this.
 

luckyoldme

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Yes, I am not saying that this driver was or wasn't on his/her phone. However, people continously report seeing lorry drivers on their phones, so I just wonder why hands free/Bluetooth set ups aren't used.

No where did I directly accuse this lorry driver, and I am sorry if it came odd that way. I meant "these lorry drivers" as in the ones people see on the phone or have proven (in previous accidents) to have been on the phone.

You're right that we don't have the facts or results of an investigation from this particular accident yet. So we really cannot say what is to be learned and/or taken away from this.
I'm not shocked at any of the behaviour I see and have seen from folk using all manner of transport ..fellow truckers included.
It's just that from the word off quite a lot of discussion related to this accident seems to be turning to truck drivers using hand helds.
Likewise other threads elsewhere have made other assumptions which are also unfair to other parties in this accident and that is wrong too.
There isn't but to not see, and therefore drive straigth into, what must have been a 7.5t or bigger there must have been a serious distraction going on.. or god forbid, the lorry driver suffered ill health at a bad moment, but that doesn't explain the other lorry involved.
Exactly. It could be any one of a number of things.
It's terrible for all concerned and the authorities put a lot of time and effort in to finding the cause. I actually pray (I'm not Evan religious) that nothing like this happens to me. Anyone who drives for a living will look at accidents like that and say thank God it's not me because it really could be any one of us.
 

CanteringCarrot

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I'm not shocked at any of the behaviour I see and have seen from folk using all manner of transport ..fellow truckers included.
It's just that from the word off quite a lot of discussion related to this accident seems to be turning to truck drivers using hand helds.
Likewise other threads elsewhere have made other assumptions which are also unfair to other parties in this accident and that is wrong too.

Exactly. It could be any one of a number of things.
It's terrible for all concerned and the authorities put a lot of time and effort in to finding the cause. I actually pray (I'm not Evan religious) that nothing like this happens to me. Anyone who drives for a living will look at accidents like that and say thank God it's not me because it really could be any one of us.
Ok...I'm sorry if my post was offensive? The discussion just kind of went that way. I didn't think made an accusation about this particular driver. I just got curious about the whole hands free thing since someone mentioned it.

Why do you think some lorry drivers don't use hands free set ups? Just seems like something you would have/want nowadays.

You don't have to answer my question if you don't want to discuss further. Just asked out of curiosity.

I do think accidents can happen for a variety of reasons and we (just in general) are lucky if we never experience such a thing.

Edit: just fixing more autocorrect fails
 
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bonny

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I hope the lorry driver loses everything and is locked up forever.[/QUOTE
Have you read the other posts ? Regardless of what you want that’s not going to happen whatever the cause which at the moment no one knows.
 

Birker2020

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Apparently 2 horses were killed outright and two had to be euthanised at the scene.
I don't know why the news agencies keep referring to the horsebox as a horse cart, its very confusing. Also confusing reports of the accident happening at 2.45pm but police weren't in attendance until 4.30pm. And some reports saying two lorries and the horse 'cart' other saying one lorry.

Very sad for all involved, you'd never get over witnessing that happening.
 
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reynold

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sadly if the lorry driver is at fault he is unlikely to get any specific punishment for the deaths of the 4 horses. Under current law horses (and other pets) are treated the same as stolen TVs.

I believe there may be a law going thru Parliament atm that is trying to change the law re stolen/death of pets but it is not law yet

My sympathy to those who have suffered loss in this accident. It will take them a long time to recover from the sight of witnessing the accident and the loss of the horses. The aftermath of the dealing with the horses will have been horrendous and let us hope the Police tried to take them away from the worst of it.

I know how long it took for me to recover from the loss of my horse and 6 others in an arson. It's 25 years ago and I can still vividly recall the scene with the bodies lying there. We couldn't just walk away as other horses living out had survived and needed attending to.

I do hope they are able to recover from this and get all they help from friends, family and professionals as needed. Leave the lorry drivers to the courts to deal with.
 

luckyoldme

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Ok...I'm sorry if my post was offensive? The discussion just kind of went that way. I didn't think made an accusation about this particular driver. I just got curious about the whole hands free thing since someone mentioned it.

Why do you think some lorry drivers don't use hands free set ups? Just seems like something you would have/want nowadays.

You don't have to answer my question if you don't want to discuss further. Just asked out of curiosity.

I do think accidents can happy for a variety of reasons and we (just in general) are lucky if we never experience such a thing.
No need to apologise maybe I'm oversensitive .
Some drivers are still using Nokia's..we are an aging workforce. This is the first wagon I've had with Bluetooth but prior to that I used my own devices .
I think a lot of drivers these days are on the internet too. ( I'm loading at the moment!)
 

criso

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To be fair there is nothing to say that the driver was on his/her phone.
I always think the lessons from a accident can only be learnt once the investigation is complete and the facts have been established.
The suggestion the driver may have been on their phone came from the facebook post from those who were at the scene on the grass verge. They may be mistaken, it must have happened so quickly, but it's not idle internet speculation either.
 

Squeak

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Such an absolute tragedy.

Also going to buy some cones, it's got to be better than nothing and with the introduction of more and more 'smart' motorways it's worth doing all we can. Re the collapsible ones do we think they would make enough of a thud on a vehicle to get someone's attention or would they be too flexible and just bend?
 

Birker2020

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Couldn’t agree more . These smart motorways are anything but smart . I’d love to meet the person who came up with this idea and find out what they where thinking .

I read the news on FB this morning , what an utterly tragic situation for all involved . I can’t imagine how they are all feeling after witnessing that . My heart goes out to them , I’m giving my lot extra hugs this morning 😞
According to The Guardian newspaper more people have been killed on hard shoulders of 'traditional' motorways than have been killed as a result of no hard shoulder on smart motorways, in fact 2019 figures show you were 7 times more likely to be killed on a hard shoulder of a 'traditional motorway'. I am very much for them as I travel down a stretch of smart motorway nearly every day so have first hand experience of using the system as opposed to those that have never been near one in their lives. I don't mean that nastily, just as a statement of fact.

But this is a discussion for another thread and nothing to do with this road which is an A road where the accident happened.
 
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The problem with the statistics that I have seen RE hard shoulder v smart motorway deaths is that nowhere have I seen death per mile stats. Sometimes stats can be misleading if you don't have all of the information. I agree that this is best kept to a different thread, so will leave it there.

I'm very sad to read about this terrible tragedy. My condolences to all involved.
 

Asha

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According to The Guardian newspaper more people have been killed on hard shoulders of 'traditional' motorways than have been killed as a result of no hard shoulder on smart motorways, in fact 2019 figures show you were 7 times more likely to be killed on a hard shoulder of a 'traditional motorway'. I am very much for them as I travel down a stretch of smart motorway nearly every day so have first hand experience of using the system as opposed to those that have never been near one in their lives. I don't mean that nastily, just as a statement of fact.

But this is a discussion for another thread and nothing to do with this road which is an A road where the accident happened.
I also have first hand experience of using them, as the M6 near me has them.
I will look that research up, as I find it hard to believe purely because they havent been around that long to get robust data. Happy to be proved wrong though !
 

Tiddlypom

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I know you are happy to drive on Smart Motorways, B2020, but they absolutely aren't safe if there is a breakdown. You have been conned into believing that they are. I appreciate that this dreadful incident happened on a dual carriageway, but one with no hard shoulder.
But this is a discussion for another thread and nothing to do with this road which is an A road where the accident happened.
Here is such a thread.
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/smart-motorway.779669/

Also
Smart motorways are dangerous, says Yorkshire police chief https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-55782301
 

Asha

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I know you are happy to drive on Smart Motorways, B2020, but they absolutely aren't safe if there is a breakdown. You have been conned into believing that they are. I appreciate that this dreadful incident happened on a dual carriageway, but one with no hard shoulder. Here is such a thread.
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/smart-motorway.779669/

Also
Smart motorways are dangerous, says Yorkshire police chief https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-55782301
Thanks for that TP. The photos on there are awful. I Hadnt seen that thread. Ive googled the guardian and smart motorways, and found that the minister who signed them off has complained that they havent been built to the original spec, in that there should be more refuge areas.
 

Birker2020

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Thanks for that TP. The photos on there are awful. I Hadnt seen that thread. Ive googled the guardian and smart motorways, and found that the minister who signed them off has complained that they havent been built to the original spec, in that there should be more refuge areas.
They are/were planning on putting them every third mile. Certainly this hasn't been done in the Solihull/Shirley stretch of the M42.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...5-7_SM-ALR_Monitoring_Yr2_Evaluation_v2.0.pdf this is interesting reading about one stretch of the M6, page 40 relates to (I assume) before and after Smart Motorway was installed accident rates.

I really think that this should be saved for another post though, like I said in reply 75.
 
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Mrs Jingle

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I hope the lorry driver loses everything and is locked up forever.
Oh dear, no investigation then by the professionals, no fair trial by the legal system? Just lock the guy up for life anyway and take everything away from him right now with the only information available about his part in the tragedy coming straight off social media sites. Have you ever thought of re locating to Afghanistan, I understand their new legal system will work pretty much along the lines you are advocating.
 
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Mrs Jingle

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I really think that this should be saved for another post though, like I said in reply 75.
My apologies for introducing it to this thread as I did think that part of the description of the tragedy was that there was not a hard shoulder to more safely leave the broken down vehicle. I thought it might have some bearing on the topic, which it is a topic on social media (H&H), albeit it a horrendous one but if I have upset anyone by bringing that on to this thread I apologise.
 

Birker2020

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Oh dear, no investigation then by the professionals, no fair trial by the legal system? Just lock the guy up for live anyway and take everything away from him right now with the only information available about his part in the tragedy coming straight off social media sites. Have you ever thought of re locating to Afghanistan, I understand their new legal system will work pretty much along the lines you are advocating.
I have to agree. He could have suffered a heart attack, or blacked out, or his brakes failed or something.

Speculation is a poor substitute when someone's reputation and mental health is on the line.
 

Amymay

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Oh dear, no investigation then by the professionals, no fair trial by the legal system? Just lock the guy up for live anyway and take everything away from him right now with the only information available about his part in the tragedy coming straight off social media sites. Have you ever thought of re locating to Afghanistan, I understand their new legal system will work pretty much along the lines you are advocating.
TBF, the possibility of the driver being on the phone came directly from those involved in the tragedy.
 

Birker2020

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My apologies for introducing it to this thread as I did think that part of the description of the tragedy was that there was not a hard shoulder to more safely leave the broken down vehicle. I thought it might have some bearing on the topic, which it is a topic on social media (H&H), albeit it a horrendous one but if I have upset anyone by bringing that on to this thread I apologise.
Its okay I wasn't having a go at anyone directly or indirectly.
Its all very sad.
 

Birker2020

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TBF, the possibility of the driver being on the phone came directly from those involved in the tragedy.
I expect the police will pass over the phone to forensics for them to check when it was last used and will base any prosecution case on that. There will be a prosecution IF someone is deemed liable because even if no people were hurt there is still a matter of insurance and litigation to be sorted and it will be in the public interest.
 

Mrs Jingle

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TBF, the possibility of the driver being on the phone came directly from those involved in the tragedy.
I understand that Amymay. But it would be far from the first time that 'facts' from witnesses stated on social media have been disproven after further investigation by professionals who are, after all, trained to sort out who said what and which bits are supported by scientific investigation of every aspect of the accident. There may even be many other factors that come into play that we or they cannot be aware of right now.

It might well turn out that the lorry driver was on the phone and it is completely his fault. But I do not think it is at all fair to speculate at this stage even with statements from witnesses who will obviously be in a huge state of shock at this time.
 

Bradsmum

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using all manner of transport ..fellow truckers included.
It's just that from the word off quite a lot of discussion related to this accident seems to be turning to truck drivers using hand helds.
Likewise other threads elsewhere have made other assumptions which are also unfair to other parties in this accident and that is wrong too.
Apologies LOM didn't mean to turn this against lorry drivers, it's just that as they are on the road continually I would have thought a hands-free would be beneficial to them. I fully agree there are plenty of idiots in all types of vehicles who also use their phones.
 

PapaverFollis

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I'm struggling to see how the driver is not culpable phone or not. We know he wasn't dead at the wheel by virtue of him still being alive. It seems like if he was paying enough attention he would not have driven into the back of a horse box hard enough to kill four horses... it seems very unlikely that there are mitigating circumstances that might excuse this?
 
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