Pictures Back feet of a potential buy

[tanitabellon]

Hi there
I wonder if I could get some opinions, I looked at a sweet 5yr old today to buy who clearly needs to see the farrier (dealer says he will book him in asap). Her front feet are shod and will be fine once the farrier has worked their magic, you can see from the photo the back feet are unshod and I am not very impressed with their condition. My question is, do you think they look bad? and do you think one visit from the farrier will sort them out or will it take a few visits to get them tidy again? She rode fine, and is very calm - especially for 5, so I am very tempted to buy her but these feet concern me a bit. As an add on she also had one snotty nose, not yellow or smelly more white'ish, but do you know if the vet will check this out when the check is done?
Thanks for any advice, she will be for my daughter and it's been a while since I was in the horse world...

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Actually the feet aren't that bad and should IMO come right given time. I've seen an awful lot worse.

However, the question I would ask is WHY they are in that state in the first place.

I have a youngster: we first shod her (all round) when she was just-backed and riding on, at 4yo. She'd been ridden on the roads without shoes for a bit and her feet were frankly awful at this stage! Much much worse than this photo. We had to work on her and get her used to her feet being handled, and it was a bit of a long haul because although she was a darling in every other respect, it needed a LOT of work (daily basis, picking up her feet and tapping them with a hammer to get her used to it) over a period of months, before we could give her a full set all in one go. But by the time she was approaching 5yo, we'd basically cracked it, bar a few little fits of temper about it now and again.

I appreciate that it is a dealer's yard situation where probably no-one's had the time, but at 5yo I'd really expect a horse to have been handled a bit and prepped for the farrier, and these feet I would suspect have not had any attention. The fronts have been done but not the hinds! Whilst I appreciate this is a common situation, that would flag up a warning bell to me that perhaps they've tried to get shoes on the back but there's been a problem! Horse has said No. So you may have a bit of work to do in getting this horse used to having its back feet handled - and as they're hind feet it might not be the best situation in the world to be dealing with as a primary issue before you can concentrate on anything else! I would certainly ask the dealer whether she's ever had shoes on the back and see what the reaction to that question is!

You say that when you went there the horse was "calm". Ehm, how calm...... you know what I'm gonna say here....... I'd perhaps be a bit suspicious that she'd been given something???

However: all that said, if you like this little mare and you can see potential in her as being fit for purpose for what you/your daughter wants - and if the price is right - then after a bit of intensive work picking up her feet and handling on the ground, and a farrier who is patient with youngsters and doesn't go in ham fisted all in a rush, and you might have a nice little horse!

But unless you trust the dealer implicitly, then I'd be inclined to have her vetted, a vet of YOUR choice not arranged by the dealers! I've been to a dealer's yard where you could have "any vet of your choice" as long as it was on the list of suitable vets that they had!! And I'd ask to have bloods taken too just to be sure. Re. the snotty nose, I'd mention this to the vet and ask for their opinion, just could be something like a blocked sinus, or a tooth giving a problem which would need resolving and which might cause behavioural problems down the line. Or could be something really nasty like Strangles. Flu even. Whichever, you need to know. The other thing to bear in mind is that possibly the horse is a bit run-down which might account for her "calm" behaviour, and when she's sorted out and feeling better, she may pep up a bit when you bring her home!! Which might not be what you want??

 

[TPO]

Hind feet just look chipped up to old nail holes/nail holes growing out.

It's hard to give an opinion without seeing the whole horse but there appear to be some event lines on the hoof. They could be perfectly innocent and relate to a change of grazing or worming but I'd want to be sure of the back story.

The black hoof also looks slightly bull nosed. Again probably a dietary issue so I'd want to know what horse is currently fed and have a plan in place.

Definitely vet the horse and get thr blood samples tested if theres any question over how "calm" the horse was. Also get a strangles test done before. It could be a carrier for anything and there might be a high footfall of horses on.the dealers.

You say you've been away from horses for a while and no idea about your daughters age or experience but just be sure that a green young horse is suitable for her. The "calm" doesn't always stay consistent with young horses. Apologies if teaching granny to suck eggs (never understood that saying!).

 

[DabDab]

Well from that picture alone they look fine, there's just some chips in them - nothing that a couple of minutes with a rasp wouldn't smooth off.

Was there a lot of untrimmed growth underneath when you picked them up or something else that particularly worried you?

 

[ycbm]

I wouldn't be worried about the cosmetic appearance . But unless the photo is misleading, they are bull nosed, the front line bulges outwards. This sometimes means that the pedal bones are at the wrong angle (negative) and even more often indicates that the horse has an issue and is not using its back end properly. The last horse I saw them on had both a 'resolved' SI strain and PSD, though not all are that bad. In this horse it would worry me a lot because they also appear to be underrun at the heel, which is much less common on back feet than front ones.

Please be sure to get the horse very thoroughly vetted with bloods and have your concern recorded by the vet beforehand, maybe by writing them an email.

 

[tanitabellon]

Thank you for the replies, super helpful.

She has been at the dealer's yard 5 months and he posted a variety of photos and videos of her when she first arrived doing a bunch of stuff - school work, xc, road work etc and she looked great with lovely feet! all shod, clean and tidy from looking at videos. I think he has just let her go a bit since then, (which is odd given that he's trying to sell her, maybe his turnaround is usually a bit quicker and his focus is on other bigger money horses), she's put on weight - he's feeding her haylage (which i find a bit odd in the summer, not what i would feed her) and she's out at night, in during the day.

Her frogs look good, absolutely no issue with me prodding and poking, she picked up her feet fine on front, a wee bit resistant on back legs but did pick up for me and let me hold them. I'd like to have a chat with the farrier about her feet ideally and will check tomorrow that the farrier has been before booking the vet check, dealer has said there are a couple of vets coming up during next week to do checks on other horses he's selling and he offered to pass on their number, he did make clear they weren't vets he had ever used.

I'd like the nose cleared before I move, I can't imagine the livery will want me bringing a snotty nosed horse to their yard, even though she will be in isolation for 2 weeks. Her calmness is more temperament I think, drugs did go through my mind but she was forward going when being ridden and got a little bit cheeky when my daughter rode compared to when the dealer rode which actually I take to be a sign of an intelligent horse who can feel a less sure rider so she will be a great educator but still a safe one. She then behaved great in all three paces and jumped easily and tidily for her. I guess as I'm writing this I can sense I really like her! She feels like a well educated boarding school kid, good behaviour but a bit indifferent to all these changing people. I feel with bonding and constancy she could be great and that will allow her personality to grow, especially as she is so young.

thanks again to you all, never had this chance to share online when I was a kid...

 

[TGM]

If she is as nice to ride as you say, then I'd be a little suspicious that she has been at a dealer's yard that long and not been sold. Especially the fact that you were shown photos of her shod all round and now she is unshod behind. The first thing that jumps to mind is that she went lame and they turned her away without shoes for a time until she came sound. Make sure that you get a thorough vetting done by a vet recommended to you by an unbiased third party. I would recommend NOT using any recommended by the dealer, even if he does they they are not vets he has used.

 

[tanitabellon]

mm hadn't considered that, ok thanks

 

[splashgirl45]

please dont believe the dealer re vets....if you have a local vet that you are going to use or the yard has a trusted vet i would ask them to do the vetting or if it is too far ask them to recommend a vet in that area.....if the horse is as biddable and able as she seems i would also be asking why not sold and why have back feet been allowed to get that bad.. if she is shod in front regularly then her backs should have been tidied at the same time....is she nice and quiet because her backs are sore?

 

[tanitabellon]

its the dealer's yard and they are not in my local area so i think i will have a phone around (Tonbridge) and get a vet. Yes, there must be a reason why she no longer has those shoes on...bit odd. Doesn't seem to be any soreness evident when I poked around but what do i know, that's why i'm getting the vet in, and I will ask the dealer about her lack of shoes.

 

[TGM]

If the pony is in Tonbridge, then I would suggest contacting Bell Equine or Milbourn Equine as vets. (Milbourn would be my first choice, but think Tonbridge might be on the edge of their area). Who is the dealer? Have you tried checking them out on any of the various Dodgy Dealer facebook groups?

 

[DabDab]

Post on here asking for a vet recommendation and you could ask the vet you go for if they have a farrier they do work with that they could take with them to give a farrier's opinion.

Are the dealers planning on getting her shod all round again or did they say just fronts?

ETA: sorry x posted with TGM

 

[tanitabellon]

He's called Seamus, irish, horse came over from ireland, saw the advert on horsequest, he has a couple advertised at the moment. His own newly built yard with about 15 stable, think his wife and daughter were there. Quite a lot of people around viewing and seemed to be a couple of loans on site. Can't see anything on Dodgy Dealers buuut.... no name for the yard so he gave me a post code and directions and I don't actually know his surname. Very good instructing my daughter in the school actually and a mix of ponies and horses and even a couple of donkeys, friendly but fundamentally wants to sell, no questions asked about where the horse would be going to but mentioned he'd had three people up from Brighton just last week on viewings and there was a family waiting to try as I was finishing up. He suggested my daughter hosed the horse down herself after the schooling and we untacked her together and then led her out to the field where she very politely waited for the headcollar to be removed before whinnying and wandering off to her friends.

 

[tanitabellon]

Post on here asking for a vet recommendation and you could ask the vet you go for if they have a farrier they do work with that they could take with them to give a farrier's opinion.

Are the dealers planning on getting her shod all round again or did they say just fronts?

ETA: sorry x posted with TGM

I didn't ask! I said her feet needed the farrier and he said he was coming the next day (i'm sure he wasn't but as long as he gets them done before buying, that's the thing) - will phone tomorrow and say I want her fully shod, he didn't say he would just do fronts but that doesn't mean anything, I'm sure he will pay the least he can.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

What I'd be inclined to do would be to try and find out WHO the farrier is; and then be cheeky and give him a ring.

Better still, if you are able, "pop in" to the yard when the horse is actually being shod, and see what happens. Or ask the dealer if you can. Get there at least 30 mins early to see if she's given anything.

OK so I've got a nasty suspicious mind! But this might be worth a punt! What have you got to lose?

 

[tanitabellon]

I've got £3000 to lose if i mess this up so yes that all makes good sense! besides, a suspicious mind is better than a naive one in these situations and I'm a bit rusty

 

[paddy555]

She has been at the dealer's yard 5 months and he posted a variety of
Her calmness is more temperament I think, drugs did go through my mind but she was forward going when being ridden and got a little bit cheeky when my daughter rode compared to when the dealer rode which actually I take to be a sign of an intelligent horse who can feel a less sure rider so she will be a great educator but still a safe one.

most especially YCBM's comments on the hind feet, I would make sure I was there when the vet checked her, (your own personally chosen horse vet) and if there was any doubt I would also get her checked by a physio unless the vet was 100% happy with this area.

Re the calmness. The horse would be expected to go perfectly for the dealer's rider as that rider is going to be specially used to presenting horses at their best. If she got a little cheeky I wouldn't necessarily take that as a sign of intelligence but to start with of a horse who was wondering what was happening with a strange rider but in this situation where the dealer was instructing the child it was under control and your child could well have been getting a lot of confidence from the dealer who may well be a very good instructor. However when you all get home is your child going to be able to get that confidence on their own? A little cheeky with the dealer watching on may relate to "trying it on" in a new environment. I don't think you can assume any horse will be a good educator, some are schoolmasters but I wouldn't assume that from what you have written. 5yo sounds pretty young to be a schoolmaster.

I can sense you really like her but if it was possible I would ask your child's instructor or someone experienced who knows your child's ability to go with you and watch your child ride.

Is she is 5 and has been there 5 months that means she was 4.5 doing XC, roadwork, school work etc when she first arrived..Big question is why does a dealer have a horse for 5 months that is apparently so good from the videos doing XC etc and with such a nice temperament?
A horse that good would surely fly off the yard.
Not trying to pour cold water on her but it is far more difficult once you have bought her to have an unhappy child and problem horse let alone one everyone has got attached to. She may be totally perfect but I would look very very carefully.
Are you able to look at the passport and find the previous owner. You could get background info that way even just from FB. You could always be cheeky and ask for a weeks trial. The dealer might say he has lots of people coming to look at her but they have had 5 months to do that.

Sorry, don't mean to put a downer on this but I am very suspicious and there are a lot of posts on here from mothers who have bought children apparently perfect horses and things have quickly gone wrong.

 

[tanitabellon]

yes that all makes sense, i'd quite like to be the one to ride her for the vet check i think as well and that will give me a better sense of her than from the ground.

 

[ycbm]

I've taken another good look at that photo. It's absolutely clear to me that the horse is stood under itself with those back feet. The cannon bones are not verticle, they are sloping backwards. If that is her normal stance then please be VERY cautious. Some of the things that cause that stance, PSD, SI strain, can be very easy for a vet to miss on a vetting because they often don't react to flexions tests and they produce an equal effect on both back legs that makes the horse appear sound.

.

 

[paddy555]

OP, did you take any pics of the whole horse, preferably from the side? Is there a very recent for sale pic somewhere perhaps?
I cannot help thinking this may not add up. It would take 5 mins with a rasp to make those hind feet look pretty. Structurally that wouldn't improve anything but they would like nice and tidy. If you are presenting a horse for sale you would normally shoe 4 feet. A private owner may have a horse who is ridden unshod behind but a dealer would make me wonder. Why haven't they even tidied the hinds? Can she be shod? is it a hassle? does she have to be sedated or does she find it difficult to hold her hinds up long enough to be shod?
Sorry some of us are on a real downer about her but it is not the 3k you will lose but what to do with the horse.
Good that you are able to ride her though, preferably out of the school along the roads and up a grassy field.

 

[TGM]

Was the postcode "TN12 7DL"?

 

[tanitabellon]

Was the postcode "TN12 7DL"?

TN126NH

 

[tanitabellon]

OP, did you take any pics of the whole horse, preferably from the side? Is there a very recent for sale pic somewhere perhaps?
I cannot help thinking this may not add up. It would take 5 mins with a rasp to make those hind feet look pretty. Structurally that wouldn't improve anything but they would like nice and tidy. If you are presenting a horse for sale you would normally shoe 4 feet. A private owner may have a horse who is ridden unshod behind but a dealer would make me wonder. Why haven't they even tidied the hinds? Can she be shod? is it a hassle? does she have to be sedated or does she find it difficult to hold her hinds up long enough to be shod?
Sorry some of us are on a real downer about her but it is not the 3k you will lose but what to do with the horse.
Good that you are able to ride her though, preferably out of the school along the roads and up a grassy field.

 

[tanitabellon]

OP, did you take any pics of the whole horse, preferably from the side? Is there a very recent for sale pic somewhere perhaps?
I cannot help thinking this may not add up. It would take 5 mins with a rasp to make those hind feet look pretty. Structurally that wouldn't improve anything but they would like nice and tidy. If you are presenting a horse for sale you would normally shoe 4 feet. A private owner may have a horse who is ridden unshod behind but a dealer would make me wonder. Why haven't they even tidied the hinds? Can she be shod? is it a hassle? does she have to be sedated or does she find it difficult to hold her hinds up long enough to be shod?
Sorry some of us are on a real downer about her but it is not the 3k you will lose but what to do with the horse.
Good that you are able to ride her though, preferably out of the school along the roads and up a grassy field.

no feet though on this pic sadly, she's on Horse Quest, Ellie under Allrounders (or jumpers)

 

[tanitabellon]

I've taken another good look at that photo. It's absolutely clear to me that the horse is stood under itself with those back feet. The cannon bones are not verticle, they are sloping backwards. If that is her normal stance then please be VERY cautious. Some of the things that cause that stance, PSD, SI strain, can be very easy for a vet to miss on a vetting because they often don't react to flexions tests and they produce an equal effect on both back legs that makes the horse appear sound.

.

that's not good, will name those things to the vet before check to consider, can a horse with those issues be ridden? it doesn't sound healthy

 

[ycbm]

that's not good, will name those things to the vet before check to consider, can a horse with those issues be ridden? it doesn't sound healthy

A horse bought with those issues is usually a very big walking vet bill. I am seriously concerned for you.

 

[splashgirl45]

i found the ad and she is quite a bit fatter in your photo. the side on in the ad doesnt look like she is standing under with her hinds so maybe something has happened in the 5 months that they have had her..

i remember seeing this ad a long time ago and wondering why she hadnt sold as she sounded good..

 

[ycbm]

no feet though on this pic sadly, she's on Horse Quest, Ellie under Allrounders (or jumpers)

She is stood with her back legs jammed together and camped under (with her back feet brought forward).

That picture absolutely screams that this horse has issues with its back legs or SI joint. It may not be representative of what is normal for her, but if it is, please walk away.

 

[ycbm]

i found the ad and she is quite a bit fatter in your photo. the side on in the ad doesnt look like she is standing under with her hinds so maybe something has happened in the 5 months that they have had her..

i remember seeing this ad a long time ago and wondering why she hadnt sold as she sounded good..

I'm afraid she does. In photo 6, the only side on shot, her cannon bones are not verticle in he hind legs, they are sloping backwards.

Her tuber sacrale -highest point on the bum - are raised and her croup drops away sharply.

Unless what we have seen in the photos is unrepresentative, she looks a shoe-in for either SI injury, PSD or both, one caused by the other.

I suspect she hunted too much in Ireland too young, maybe carrying too much weight for a 14.3 baby. I wouldn't want a five year old to be being advertised as having done 'a lot of hunting'.

I'm so sorry TB, but from the three photos I've seen, I think you'll be wasting your money to vet this horse; shouldn't buy it without a five stage vet from a vet unknown to the seller, and even if it passes, be prepared to find performance issues needing investigation within weeks or months, so please insure her with a good company.

 

[paddy555]

i found the ad and she is quite a bit fatter in your photo. the side on in the ad doesnt look like she is standing under with her hinds so maybe something has happened in the 5 months that they have had her..

i remember seeing this ad a long time ago and wondering why she hadnt sold as she sounded good..

I can't find the ad, which section did you find it in please? Of course in 5 months she could have been sold and then returned to the dealer, just a possibility.