Back Pain, Bad Behaviour, Possible Hock Athritis?? Help!!

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GeorgieD

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Desperately trying to uncover the reason behind my horses behaviour

I have a lovely, genuine 17hh 10yr old TB (never raced), had 4 months off over winter, that has shown a sudden change in behaviour after 2 months back in work

It began a few weeks ago with him not wanting to move forward in walk, was always happy to be tacked up and handled, would trot canter in a form of outline, but if was asked to use his back through correctly would just stop moving.

Had the physio/chyro/vets all out. nothing obvious but plenty of possibilities. Most of his back is very supple right to the point of discomfort (area behind the saddle) is only extremely mildly lame on one hind leg. Yet it got to the point where he just wouldnt move once i got on. Acting very cold backed. He's currently on 2 sachets of bute a day, i sat on, bad behaviour occurred but got through it and he was using his back again nicely and felt supple... yet the third day i got on he began being odd again... not wanting to move etc (still on bute) Whilst being on bute, this behaviour could just be him being naughty/bored with current routine.

Has anyone had anything similar happen? After discussion with vet the case could be mild hock arthritis, that after 4 moths off over winter stiffened, gradually coming back to work would then make it show, and I think the back pain could be muscular from holding himself so oddly from pain in his hocks... maybe??

Unsure what to do now, if anyones had a similar experience or can make sense of it that would be amazing!! Thank you
 
Pain from the hocks often shows as a sore back before any lameness is noticed so the theory is sensible but why has the vet not done any proper diagnostics to either prove it, so treatment can start or rule it out so other things can be looked into.
Nerve blocking the hock, then if the lameness improves a few xrays to see whether there are arthritic changes would not be too expensive and at least allow you to move forward even if nothing does show.
 
I think you need to rule out the possibility of Kissing Spines - did the vet not mention that as a possibility? Much of what you describe sounds quite similar to my horse's behaviour and he was diagnosed with this last year, and the area just behind the saddle where the spinal processes change direction is often where it occurs, as far as I understand. My horse's wak was the pace most noticeably affected.

NB don't wish to be alarmist, may well not be but I would want to investigate, and it is also very manageable especially if find it early on.
 
My horse had very similar symptoms. Ended up with a retired 12 year old with a diagnosis of kissing spines, spondoloyis and a degraded stifle. Fingers crossed yours won't he even half as bad. One piece of advice though, get it diagnosed so you know sooner rather than later. I fiddled about spending a fortune on chiros, new saddles, more lessons, time off. Should have just opted for the bone scan in the first place.
 
As he's not insured and I'm on a budget the vet suggested trying bute initially to see if that was enough to reduce any inflamation.. would have been a miracle but worth a go!
Yes nerve blocking the hock would be a good next step... if his back had been sore due tonhis hocks would that give immediate relief to his back also?

Kissing spines was mentioned, but thought unlikely as the rest of his back was so supple... also the vet was hopeful if it was the case, it would be a minor amount.

Gosh that sounds awful what a shame!!! I'm hoping that ont be the case.... but I do feel like I have one of the most unlucky horses around!!!

Thanks so much for the advice... really appreciate any thoughts!!
 
Haven't, but I mentioned it to all of them and they thought it wad an unlikely cause as the most part of his back appears to be in great conditition.. the vet was so surprised at how supple it wad, especially in comparison! But yep its definitely another thing to look at!

Horses are exhausting...

I've heard stomach ulcers cause odd behaviour too?

And would any hock discomfort show through the bute?
 
Hi there, if hock arthritis is suspected I would ask for xrays to check.
Sounds just like my lad, he was eventually diagnosed with advanced bi-lateral spavins even though he never showed lameness, showed no behavioural improvement on bute trial and even passed flexions! He also was found to have arthritis in his pelvis/SI and he is currentley managed with exercise and supplements having had varying results from joint injections and Tildren. I think/hope his hocks are all but fused now but know the pelvic issues are there as well so just take each day as it comes.
I know lots of horses that have hock arthritis managed very well with treatment these days so may not be such bad news.
I think I paid about £300 for Xrays (hocks, fetlocks, back and neck) and pelvic ultrasound scans. He went in for a full work up as vet couldn't see any real cause for the backpain and as he showed no visible lameness nerve blocks weren't even discussed.
It's been a long road but he is happy to be ridden atm!
Good luck with him
 
Thanks for all that info, its such a tricky thing to work out!
How old is your boy? Can he jump, compete etc now?
I'm very fortunate to have such a talented horse, I really hope he cn get back into competing again!
 
You need to get xrays to rule out spavin. There is no point guessing. If it is spavin there are a number of treatment option such as a steroid injection (approx £70), Tildren (approx £700 per infusion) or the one I wished I'd plumped for with my horse (fusion by ethanol - £300 for both hocks).
 
I don't think I'm trying to guess. Its very useful to hear other peoples real experiences while trying to figure out the issue.

I think that is the issue the vet is favouring, thanks I'll go for the ethanol if it is the case! :-)
 
He was 11 when he was diagnosed but looking back, even though he passed the vetting when I bought him aged 8 I think he has always had issues i.e. Always needed regular physio and saddle checks and never really relaxed and enjoyed work. He was 14 last week and in the last 6 months has coped with everything I've asked of him (which in truth isn't a lot lol) I could confidentley take him out to do Novice dressage and we hack for miles in all gaits. With regards to jumping, he is happy to fling himself over jumps while loose but I wouldn't ask him to do it with me on board because of his higher up problems! He does struggle if you ask him to take more weight behind when schooling BUT he's a lot happier than 2 years ago so hopefully we'll just keep plugging on.
Your horse sounds great - you need to find out what's bugging him and go from there :-)
 
GeorgieD said:
Desperately trying to uncover the reason behind my horses behaviour

I have a lovely, genuine 17hh 10yr old TB (never raced), had 4 months off over winter, that has shown a sudden change in behaviour after 2 months back in work

It began a few weeks ago with him not wanting to move forward in walk, was always happy to be tacked up and handled, would trot canter in a form of outline, but if was asked to use his back through correctly would just stop moving.

Had the physio/chyro/vets all out. nothing obvious but plenty of possibilities. Most of his back is very supple right to the point of discomfort (area behind the saddle) is only extremely mildly lame on one hind leg. Yet it got to the point where he just wouldnt move once i got on. Acting very cold backed. He's currently on 2 sachets of bute a day, i sat on, bad behaviour occurred but got through it and he was using his back again nicely and felt supple... yet the third day i got on he began being odd again... not wanting to move etc (still on bute) Whilst being on bute, this behaviour could just be him being naughty/bored with current routine.

Has anyone had anything similar happen? After discussion with vet the case could be mild hock arthritis, that after 4 moths off over winter stiffened, gradually coming back to work would then make it show, and I think the back pain could be muscular from holding himself so oddly from pain in his hocks... maybe??

Unsure what to do now, if anyones had a similar experience or can make sense of it that would be amazing!! Thank you
Click to expand...


There could be other issues here!!! maybe not just the back!! Elimination of problems

Tack must be checked!!!
Teeth checked
if your horse is a mare have the overies scanned and internal examination
I think your horse personally has ulcers!!! ulcers can be caused by stress or pain through lameness, if your horse has ulcers the bute wont make no difference at all to the behaviour which you are saying he is still the same, my horse had ulcers she has been ulcers free for 10 months now and doing fab!!! gastroplus is what i used and worked for me i would at least put it on gastroplus and you should be able to see a big difference within a week or 2, if she improves i think you will find she has ulcers!!! xx
your vet or carapractor should be able to rule out kissing spine.xx
 
fuzzle said:
your vet or carapractor should be able to rule out kissing spine.xx
Click to expand...

A chiropractor cannot diagnose KS, nor can a vet without xrays or bone scans.

If i was in your position OP I would get the hocks xrayed as a lot of sore backs are not neccesarily aways KS and can be symptomatic of hock issues. However if nothing comes of the hock xrays i would be inclined to get xrays of the back done - my TB with KS (5/6 processes touching) was always considered to have a "good" and supple back by his physio and chiropractor.

I hope you find some answers.
 
I know he is a big boy, but being on 2 bute a day should relieve any pain, and therefore an improvement in his behaviour.

So would wonder about ulcers, or a severe pain related issue such as ks that the bute is not helping.

Let us know what the diagnosis is and keeping everything crossed for you.
 
GeorgieD said:
I don't think I'm trying to guess. Its very useful to hear other peoples real experiences while trying to figure out the issue.

I think that is the issue the vet is favouring, thanks I'll go for the ethanol if it is the case! :-)
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't mean that sentence nastily. I do think its best to get a workup to establish the course. Here in an interesting paper from 2011 on the subject of fusion with ethanol and anotehr article I found.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2011.00512.x/full

http://www.horseandrideruk.com/article.php?id=2414
 
Thank you so much for everyones suggestions!! Have made many many notes and will discuss all with the vet
I am hoping its not kissing spines... ATM I think after all of this hock issues causing back pain is my first guess - but that is being hopeful against kissing spines!!

Im also beginning to wonder about pain in the sacroiliac as he seems this uncomfortable when im on him..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp8xQoqHLwM (worth a short watch! found it great to relate to!)

Vets coming out tomorrow, I think we'll probably be starting with the hocks, and see how the discomfort in his back relates to it etc, then (hopefully not have to!!) rule out KS, more leg issues, sacroiliac, ulcers and tack

the ulcer idea is something the vet didnt suggest btut is definitely a possibility after reading about it

This is only the first time ive posted on here and I have to say its been so so useful! thanks so much. Ill keep you all updated following tomorrow!
 
Update!!

Had the vet out. following her last visit she noticed he looked even more so uncomfortable, he'd been in a couple of days whereas last night he was only just out of work and had recently had the physio

She had a look over and after lunging we decided that his hocks definitely seemed odd; very short and almost dragging his back legs. He was also extremely tender in his back (behind where the saddle sits) and was showing little movement there.
The decision after this was to block his hocks, lunging him we noticed a massive improvemt, so I decided to get on and felt a difference also! he was slightly resistant but I think that was partly behaviour, we walked, trot and cantered all with some contact and the transitions were smooth which was great

He'll be having treatment in his hocks thursday, and we may or may not block his back to see how that affects him. There is still a concern there as it was so stiff

I am a bit worried about kissing spines, but when i did get on this time he wasnt on any bute at all and didnt act aggressively at all to being ridden...is that a good sign against KS?

Would you block his back also next time to see how he reacts?

Thanks so much again :)
 
Thanks for the update, was wondering how you got on.
Great that you are starting to pinpoint possible issues. I'm assuming xrays will be done before treatment (otherwise where would they inject??) so you should have a clearer picture of what is going on then. With regards to the back I would highly recommend a qualified equine physio to assess and treat before riding again after treatment. Mine was (and still is) a great help. She only treated him twice and gave me exercises to do with him before riding and he showed no signs of discomfort when I got back on. It was like she unlocked all the knotted up, tense, sore bits and you could tell he was much happier after.
I really hope that treatments are succesfull for you, it's a wonderfull feeling when your horse starts behaving like they used to and is happy to work again :-)
 
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