Back Pain or Bad Behaviour??

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Darcy12

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Hi All

I've a 7 yr old, 13' 2" showjumping pony which has competed to JC level. Approx. 9 months ago she injured herself (poll) while jumping. After recovering from the injury she was initially reluctant to jump. Thought that this was due to siffness in hind qtrs as she was stabled up for quite a while, this was the only problem the Phyiso could find. After she was turned out regularly she seemed to improve but this did not last.

I've worked patiently & frequently with her over the last 6 months (going back to basics if you like) but her condition has deterioated rather than improved as she now bucks & rears when trying to get her into canter. Medical checks (including back x-rays / womb scans) have shown nothing, although KS was suspected (she was senstive to girth tightening). Re-schooling only had a temporary benefit. It seems that she has just developed an extremely stubbon attitude or she is still in pain from somewhere. Has anyone else had a similar experience? What could I do next?!!
 
How long ago was she last checked by the physio/ vet since you have brought her back into work? and at this time was she sore under any manipulation of her back/ neck etc etc???
 
Have you had her saddle checked? She may have changed shape after being off work and saddle may not fit right?? I ask because I took on a "dangerous" horse recently and it turned out he just had a bad back from a badly fitting saddle because he had changed shape having been an affiliated show jumper then going down to light work.
 
You could get the pony referred to the Animal Health Trust for full investigations. If you are insured that would be my suggestion. It doesn't sound like an attitude problem to me, and you must doubt that too to already do lots of tests. You just haven't found the root of the problem yet and the only option is to keep looking.
 
I'd always give the benefit of the doubt to the horse. Either she's still in pain or she's totally lost her confidence in being ridden because that's when she hurt herself. Another thought is that you may unconsciously be holding onto worrying about/for her when you ride her so she may be picking up on your tenseness. Is she the same being gently lunged? Is she the same with a different rider who knows nothing of her history? Does she seem stiff hoolying about in the field, or does she not do normal horse stuff in the field any longer? Have you tried riding her just in walk in a sheepskin pad and surcingle? Tried riding her somewhere she likes with someone walking with you to give you AND her confidence? It's either pain or deep unhappiness I betcha. Good luck x
 
Did the physio check to see if her atlas was out. This was the problem with my horse and was caused by him banging his head on the trailer one day. If they start carrying themselves differently due to pain elsewhere in the body then all sorts of problems with soreness arise. For instance you can have a bad neck but you can be carrying yourself in such a way to relieve the pain in your neck that you can then make your back sore. Same for horses. Just check the atlas is aligned, a physio or mctimoney would tell you. I swear by Mc Timoney chiro's.
 
Can I but in here and ask about girth tightening,(re kissing spines) My horse is very touchy about the girth, doesnt mind saddle being put on. He hates his rugs being done up though so wonder if its down to sensitive skin etc more. Would a horse with back problems be able and happy to roll over completely in the field?
 
My horse became very funny about having his saddle put on and his girth done up, was extremely tense in his neck and back when it came to riding him and became nappy and reared when trying to close/open gates. My friend suggested getting a kinesiologist out who did a lot of work with him, and found him to be compressed in his neck. After spending some time with him and working on him he was a completely different horse. We no longer had issues with him becoming tense in his work, and also 4 weeks later I have noticed him becoming a lot more relaxed in himself and therefore being tacked up. I would highly recommend having a kinesiologist out!

Also, I got a saddler out to take a look at his saddle and found that the girth was being done up slightly too far back (very slightly!) and this was causing problems for him as he's a very sensitive horse, so we invested in an albion because of the front girth strap being very forward, which made the girth do up in the correct and comfortable place for him.

I don't know if any of this would work for you, but it definitely worked for me, and I would recommend kinesiology as a way of helping your pony.
 
Hi JodieS

We had her checked by the physio when she first started with this type of behavior but not since, we went down the route of x-rays, etc.... She thought that she was stiff from spending quite a bit of time in the stable during the winter, she had some electro-massage which seemed to help ease her stiffness and at that time she wasn't too bad. However, she has steadily deterioated since then. What are you thinking??
 
Hi All

Thanks for all your advice, I really appreciate it.

Just to answer some of your questions:

1. We've had the saddle initially checked by someone quite knowledgeable but not by a qualified saddler. This could be an option, even just to rule it out.

2. She is insured so a refferal to the Animal Welfare Trust or somewhere else could be possible. Would I just need to contact the vet to progress this?

3. She is better on the lunge but still requires quite a bit of encouragement. She has been ridden by someone else and reacted in the same way, bucking & rearing. She doesn't seem to hold back when she's in the field, charging round the place at times!

4. As far as I'm aware the physio didn't mention the atlas so not sure if it was checked out or not? Are there any particular signs of this?

5. Forgive my ignorance but what does a kinesiologist focus on in terms of investigation & treatment?

Many Thanks
D12
 
Discuss a referral with your vet. Tell them the pony's still not happy to be ridden and has got worse, not better and you need to know what's causing it. You'll need to hurry up as well because if you had the vet after the injury when the problems started, you may only have twelve months from then to have the problems investigated covered by the insurance, depending on your policy. Good luck with it and I hope its something the vets can put right for you.
 
I've posted recently about problems with my boy with being saddled, he's been falling down when being tacked up. We are currently investigating it with the vet. KS was suspected first of all, but x rays showed that isn't the case. So he had a bone scan, has your pony had one of these? It can show problems lower down in the spine. He has a hotspot under the saddle area which may be due to articular facet problems, but the x ray he had on that hot spot showed only a slight thickening of a facet joint in that area. An X ray for KS wouldn't show this, but the symptoms are very similar so it night be worth discussing a bonce scan with your vet.

We've just come off a bute trial to see if he kept falling down whilst on it, and he didn't during girthing but did once whilst having his foot picked out, but that may have been behavioural. Anyway, we suspect that there is pain somewhere that the bute alleviated. We are now waiting for the bute to be out of his system to see how he reacts then. Have you tried a bute trial to see if it alleviates some of the pony's bad behaviour? If it does then it would suggest pain somewhere.

I would also get the saddle checked by a professional saddler, I've changed my boy's saddle (still not a perfect fit but better than his old one) and he moves better, although still not perfect. But again we are waiting for him to come of the bute to see what effect the saddle change alone has made. I've got a saddler coming out Thursday to fit one properly.

You definitely need to get back on to your vet as your pony clearly isn;t happy and could get worse and more dangerous
 
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I've posted recently about problems with my boy with being saddled, he's been falling down when being tacked up. We are currently investigating it with the vet. KS was suspected first of all, but x rays showed that isn't the case. So he had a bone scan, has your pony had one of these? It can show problems lower down in the spine. He has a hotspot under the saddle area which may be due to articular facet problems, but the x ray he had on that hot spot showed only a slight thickening of a facet joint in that area. An X ray for KS wouldn't show this, but the symptoms are very similar so it night be worth discussing a bonce scan with your vet.

We've just come off a bute trial to see if he kept falling down whilst on it, and he didn't during girthing but did once whilst having his foot picked out, but that may have been behavioural. Anyway, we suspect that there is pain somewhere that the bute alleviated. We are now waiting for the bute to be out of his system to see how he reacts then. Have you tried a bute trial to see if it alleviates some of the pony's bad behaviour? If it does then it would suggest pain somewhere.

I would also get the saddle checked by a professional saddler, I've changed my boy's saddle (still not a perfect fit but better than his old one) and he moves better, although still not perfect. But again we are waiting for him to come of the bute to see what effect the saddle change alone has made. I've got a saddler coming out Thursday to fit one properly.

You definitely need to get back on to your vet as your pony clearly isn;t happy and could get worse and more dangerous

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Have any of you had your horses/ pony checked for ulcers?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Can I but in here and ask about girth tightening,(re kissing spines) My horse is very touchy about the girth, doesnt mind saddle being put on. He hates his rugs being done up though so wonder if its down to sensitive skin etc more. Would a horse with back problems be able and happy to roll over completely in the field?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe worth checking for ulcers
 
Def worth checking for ulcers, I've just spent the last 8 mon ths battling ulcers and the associated behavioural issues, your description sounds horribly familiar.
 
Did you have her neck x-rayed as well as her back? I have a growing list of "problem horses" that showed arthritis and/or old fracture sites in their necks. In more than one case, with hindsight, we've been able to narrow down to the most likely causative incident, even though no one "remembered" the incident as being significant before the injury was identified. (In one case the horse got his head caught in a gate, another came from a horse pulling back and breaking loose, another from a horse falling and hitting his head. In all these cases the horses appeared "fine" immediately after the incidents.)

What was the nature and cause of the injury to her poll? It's a bit suspicious that she sustained such an injury and now you're having these problems as she's been returned to work.

The problem with such conditions is the very often WILL respond to proper work, conditioning etc. In the same way that someone with a bad back may be made more comfortable through a proper physio and exercise regime. So correct schooling - strengthening, stretching etc. - may make the horse more comfortable, at least in the short term, and slow down the deterioration. It won't return the situation to the way it was though, so an increase in workload or just the ravages or time may make the situation deteriorate again.

The situation may even "improve" with a new saddle or different rider. The sort of discomfort that causes negative reactions is cumulative so improving things in one area should improve the overall picture, even if there are still negative factors operating underneath. To use the "bad back" analogy again, the sufferer might be more comfortable wearing good shoes or walking on firm turf, much less comfortable in high heels or pounding the pavement. Neither has an effect on the underlying condition but they'll likely make a huge difference to how cranky the sufferer is at the end of the day.

Horses also learn very quickly what they can or can't do. After all, we use negative stimuli all the time to train horses. So if it hurts every time the horse jumps, it will resist jumping. Short term you can make it more uncomfortable to jump than not, which may affect a temporary improvement, or you may override the horse's reluctance by tact and by exploiting the animal's natural willingness. But again, in the end, if the condition is degenerative (pretty much the definition of arthritis) the horse will likely get more and more motivated to avoid certain actions.

Sorry, that all sounds very doom and gloom. But from what you're describing it doesn't sound like a horse that's just "decided" to be bad, it sounds like she's trying to tell you something.
 
Hi TarrStepps et al

Thanks for all your comments. The overall concensus seems to be that there is a medical somewhere............we just need to find it.

Time to consider how best to proceed.......vet?referral?physio?hospital?...

Many Thanks

D12
 
Who do you trust?
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If you have a recommended performance horse vet available that's probably the place to start. I've also had good luck using a talented physio to examine the horse in a general way, pinpoint any areas of concern, and narrow the field if possible. I figure anyone who has their hands on broken horses every day of the week has got to have a good body of knowledge regarding what's normal and what patterns go with what problems.

Professionally, I have a couple of steps I use to assess a horse I think has some sort of underlying physical issue. It's all about seeing patterns, assessing objectively, and reserving judgement - seeing the horse fresh, as it were. Sometimes it's actually best to get someone who doesn't know the horse well to have a look, as it's often difficult to see the big picture with a horse you see everyday.

I assess the behaviour. Does it start in a certain circumstance, even something as simple as the horse turning its head one way? Does it follow any pattern? When the horse misbehaves are there specific actions or reactions, like twisting the neck in a particular way or shifting weight in a certain direction? I look for patterns and things that aren't as they should be.

I watch the horse on the longe. I look for any head tilting, neck twisting etc. I watch how the horse loads its shoulders and hips in each direction. I watch trot and canter strike offs to see if the horse has a marked preference or if a particular posture or situation causes a negative reaction. (i.e if the horse is looking left when it picks up the canter does the quality of the transition suffer? Does the horse pin its ears? Does it struggle/resist striking off? Etc, etc) I watch for limited range of motion in any limb or the neck. I watch to see if the tail swings freely. I watch to see if the feet follow consistent and bilaterally identical tracks. I watch the feet hit the ground. I watch the horse's expression and posture for clues to when it is more or less comfortable.

I watch the muscles. Are there areas that move less on one side than the other? Are there areas that should move that don't? Are there knots or breaks in the muscles? Is there even development?

I watch the horse from behind and in front. Long lining works well, as it also allows a rough evaluation of rein contact and how steering affects any imbalances. If I can, I have the horse led and watch its feet hit the ground.

I watch the horse when its loose. I watch it stand and move both "forced" and naturally. Any pattern that's repeated, say resting the same foot or reluctance to turn both ways, catches my attention.

I put the horse on a lead rein and move it around. Can it cross both sets of feet over evenly in both directions? Can it back up evenly? Will it yield both shoulders and hips easily on both sides? Can it bend equally in both directions, with the same movement? Can it put its head up and down to light pressure?

In short, I watch. I watch for anything out of the ordinary or that doesn't look like it should. I watch for anything that doesn't seem explained by the horse's conformation.

Hopefully this narrows it down. When I have an area of suspicion I put my hands on the horse. Do the areas feel the same bilaterally? Is there tension where there shouldn't be? Does the horse show any discomfort or tension when pressure is applied?

To be fair, EVERY horse is going to have things not exactly as I'd like them to be. Nothing is perfect. And most of the time it's not disastrous - the trick is sorting out what's germane. It's looking for clues . . .
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Hopefully this gives me a starting point. I collect up my information and then I consult with my vet/physio about where to go next and how to use that information. Hopefully we can get a dialogue going and start looking in the right places.
 
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