Backing a youngster that runs

[cep]

I have a 4yr warmblood gelding who I have been doing groundwork with in the backing process. All has gone slowly and smoothly starting basics: in-hand, bitting, saddling, lunging, double lunging etc. I have gradually introduced backing, with the traditional methods leaning over the saddle until I finally got on.

No problems sitting on him by the mounting block but he panics when asked to walk forward and bolts. No bucking or anything nasty, but pure panic. Unfortunately the first time this occurred a couple of laps round the saddle slipped to the side and I had to bail out before I could get him to relax or slow to a walk - not the ideal start.

Obviously I shall be going back to preliminary steps and building up again, but further ideas are welcome. The big obstacle to overcome is him moving (and still listening to voice commands) with weight on his back - he is fine whilst stationary.

I have a round pen to work in, but unfortunately no experienced helpers or other jockeys.

To avoid pulling on his mouth on the first few rides I attached a second pair of reins to a headcollar, so the bit is not the issue. He also works very comfortably lunging with either bit or cavesson pressure. He is a bit hot in general, but responds to voice commands when I am on the ground.

 

[Scarlett]

Sounds like you need to get someone to come help you. If you don't have anyone who will lend a hand for free then pay someone, you only get one shot at this and as it's already gone badly wrong I wouldn't risk it happening again. An extra pair of hands will make al the difference imo.

 

[Oscar]

Can you lead him off an older more established horse? Mine was terrified when I got him as a 2yo if I rode into the yard, he was like what the hellare you doing up there in his back!! It was like he couldn't believe it was possible. So I did a lot of ride & lead and leant on him from the lead horse - he was then an angel to back.

I would definitely get help with the first few rides, even if you have to pay an instructor etc to lead you and keep you both safe. You can't undo what has happened but you need him to be 100% secure with what you we asking before getting back on.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

You will possibly never sort this problem out, however, you need to start again, do everything others suggest, but do not ride for six months, and do not attempt anything on your own.
The other option is to send him to someone like Sarah Fisher, or a natural horseman with facilities and ability to cope.

 

[cep]

Sounds like you need to get someone to come help you. If you don't have anyone who will lend a hand for free then pay someone, you only get one shot at this and as it's already gone badly wrong I wouldn't risk it happening again. An extra pair of hands will make al the difference imo.

Thanks. Unfortunately I am abroad, with very few people available to help that know one end of a horse for another. Therefore I made the decision in the first instance to try without someone nervous in the ring transmitting their fear in the situation. However, maybe I do need to teach someone what I want them to do on the ground to be able to help me.

Obviously the problem with the saddle was my mistake, where I put an extra pad under and it slipped.

I am considering a 'fake jockey' (massive teddy or similar) for a few sessions, so that I can work him from the ground with that on - but only after building back up to the same stage in time of course. Would be interested if that has worked for other people. I know some people do that as routine, though most just go from lying over to sitting in saddle themselves.

 

[_GG_]

Thanks. Unfortunately I am abroad, with very few people available to help that know one end of a horse for another. Therefore I made the decision in the first instance to try without someone nervous in the ring transmitting their fear in the situation. However, maybe I do need to teach someone what I want them to do on the ground to be able to help me.

Obviously the problem with the saddle was my mistake, where I put an extra pad under and it slipped.

I am considering a 'fake jockey' (massive teddy or similar) for a few sessions, so that I can work him from the ground with that on - but only after building back up to the same stage in time of course. Would be interested if that has worked for other people. I know some people do that as routine, though most just go from lying over to sitting in saddle themselves.

I have ALWAYS used a fake before getting on board myself. I usually fill two haynets and tie together, then over the saddle and to the girth so they can't move too much and not only does the horse learn about having weight and things applying pressure to the sides, but it also comes in a form that they LOVE as they can have a nibble.

That said, as the problem already exists, for a nice young horse, I would not take any risks or gambles and I would send away for a few weeks to a well trusted trainer to re-do it all for you and back him.

 

[cep]

I have ALWAYS used a fake before getting on board myself. I usually fill two haynets and tie together, then over the saddle and to the girth so they can't move too much and not only does the horse learn about having weight and things applying pressure to the sides, but it also comes in a form that they LOVE as they can have a

That said, as the problem already exists, for a nice young horse, I would not take any risks or gambles and I would send away for a few weeks to a well trusted trainer to re-do it all for you and back him.

Haynets a good idea! Cheers. Far simpler than making a guy Fawkes style dummy..

Again, unfortunately no trainers. To get him to someone would involve crossing two borders, quarantine and a massive expense. I would consider flying someone to help, if I find someone who has ample time and experience. I normally get sent 'problem' horses to re-school, but haven't had this issue backing before. In fact I do wonder if it is why he was sold unbacked as a 4yr old, but will never know. Though I would be happy to admit it was my human error and an unfortunate sequence that set us back. Of course will start him from basics again, but I thought I would also ask the wisdom of the crowd - someone may have worked through the same and come up with something I haven't thought of!

 

[_GG_]

Haynets a good idea! Cheers. Far simpler than making a guy Fawkes style dummy..

Again, unfortunately no trainers. To get him to someone would involve crossing two borders, quarantine and a massive expense. I would consider flying someone to help, if I find someone who has ample time and experience. I normally get sent 'problem' horses to re-school, but haven't had this issue backing before. In fact I do wonder if it is why he was sold unbacked as a 4yr old, but will never know. Though I would be happy to admit it was my human error and an unfortunate sequence that set us back. Of course will start him from basics again, but I thought I would also ask the wisdom of the crowd - someone may have worked through the same and come up with something I haven't thought of!

To be honest...and I may not be popular for saying this, but I don't know if I would go back to basics. It would of course depend on the horse and how stressed he gets, but when problems arise during training, you can't always overcome them by ignoring them. I'd be inclined to just pick up the ground work where you already are with it and introduce things like the haynets, stirrups hanging down and flapping around...you treating the scary things as just something totally normal and allowing him the opportunity to seek confidence from you and your being totally fine with it all.

I would definitely get help in for when you do back again and I would do plenty of work on the ground teaching him to go away from pressure to his sides so that he understands the concept of pressure and release around him. Also try to get something tall to be tied onto the saddle. Doesn't need to be a blow up doll, but something that will give him the visual of something being on and above him. If he runs, let him run and let him figure out for himself that it is actually not trying to kill him.

We can be too careful with horses sometimes and that level of caution can allow doubt to creep in which, in turn can create insecurity in the horse, stemming from our own concerns. Sometimes it is far better for the horse to just learn a quick, harmless lesson than get sour from having to do the same things time and time again.

I'll add to that. Most often, when horses are too forward, the response is to think backwards when actually, the best thing can be to harness that forwardness, use it and turn it into something. So, rather than taking the training backwards, sometimes it can be more useful to increase the level of effort a little and engage the horse and his/her energy, rather than just have to hang on when it overflows.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[dominobrown]

It would be useful to have someone on the ground, but what I would do in this case is get him used to flexing his neck side to side by rein pressure, I would then lean over him flexing side to side, sit up a bit without feet in stirrups and 'rock around' a bit, again flexing his neck round if he becomes tense. I wouldn't be too quiet about leaning over him and try and move him around a bit.
When up I wouldn't ask him to go forward but flex his neck round and keep turning him on himself. He should be used to the 'neck flex' by this point. I have used this technique on youngsters who tend to rush off, you have more control and they can get used to you and movement without building up speed hopefully. I would try this in a round pen.

Btw ditto what GG said, I let the long lines drop and pull them gently round their legs, 'throw' saddles pads on and let stirrups bang around. When leaning over I pat the horses rump, shoulders etc and make a fuss. OFten horses panic because they don't quite realise how you got their or not 100% aware.

 

[Festive_Felicitations]

It would be useful to have someone on the ground, but what I would do in this case is get him used to flexing his neck side to side by rein pressure, I would then lean over him flexing side to side, sit up a bit without feet in stirrups and 'rock around' a bit, again flexing his neck round if he becomes tense. I wouldn't be too quiet about leaning over him and try and move him around a bit.
When up I wouldn't ask him to go forward but flex his neck round and keep turning him on himself. He should be used to the 'neck flex' by this point. I have used this technique on youngsters who tend to rush off, you have more control and they can get used to you and movement without building up speed hopefully. I would try this in a round pen.

Btw ditto what GG said, I let the long lines drop and pull them gently round their legs, 'throw' saddles pads on and let stirrups bang around. When leaning over I pat the horses rump, shoulders etc and make a fuss. OFten horses panic because they don't quite realise how you got their or not 100% aware.

Very good suggestions!

 

[cep]

To be honest...and I may not be popular for saying this, but I don't know if I would go back to basics. It would of course depend on the horse and how stressed he gets, but when problems arise during training, you can't always overcome them by ignoring them. I'd be inclined to just pick up the ground work where you already are with it and introduce things like the haynets, stirrups hanging down and flapping around...you treating the scary things as just something totally normal and allowing him the opportunity to seek confidence from you and your being totally fine with it all.

I would definitely get help in for when you do back again and I would do plenty of work on the ground teaching him to go away from pressure to his sides so that he understands the concept of pressure and release around him. Also try to get something tall to be tied onto the saddle. Doesn't need to be a blow up doll, but something that will give him the visual of something being on and above him. If he runs, let him run and let him figure out for himself that it is actually not trying to kill him.

We can be too careful with horses sometimes and that level of caution can allow doubt to creep in which, in turn can create insecurity in the horse, stemming from our own concerns. Sometimes it is far better for the horse to just learn a quick, harmless lesson than get sour from having to do the same things time and time again.

I'll add to that. Most often, when horses are too forward, the response is to think backwards when actually, the best thing can be to harness that forwardness, use it and turn it into something. So, rather than taking the training backwards, sometimes it can be more useful to increase the level of effort a little and engage the horse and his/her energy, rather than just have to hang on when it overflows.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks v much. Very positive way of thinking

I have had stirrups down for quite some time, but maybe not enough variety of stimuli in that respect. Also done some in hand over/back exercises away from pressure, but perhaps being over careful or gentle. Thanks again.

 

[cep]

It would be useful to have someone on the ground, but what I would do in this case is get him used to flexing his neck side to side by rein pressure, I would then lean over him flexing side to side, sit up a bit without feet in stirrups and 'rock around' a bit, again flexing his neck round if he becomes tense. I wouldn't be too quiet about leaning over him and try and move him around a bit.
When up I wouldn't ask him to go forward but flex his neck round and keep turning him on himself. He should be used to the 'neck flex' by this point. I have used this technique on youngsters who tend to rush off, you have more control and they can get used to you and movement without building up speed hopefully. I would try this in a round pen.

Btw ditto what GG said, I let the long lines drop and pull them gently round their legs, 'throw' saddles pads on and let stirrups bang around. When leaning over I pat the horses rump, shoulders etc and make a fuss. OFten horses panic because they don't quite realise how you got their or not 100% aware.

That is a good idea, I will work more on flexion and direction. It was the first movement forward that caused the panic, so making that into a turn could be the answer to diffuse the situation. Up until that point he voluntarily turned to look at me and be scratched.

Would you favour turning towards the centre or outside of a round pen (with hight fence)? I would naturally turn inside, to avoid teaching him to spin and rushing the other way, but what has your experience been?

 

[dominobrown]

Yes to the inside would be best, its just to get him moving his feet with actually going anywhere!

 

[simplyhunting]

I have a 4yr warmblood gelding who I have been doing groundwork with in the backing process. All has gone slowly and smoothly starting basics: in-hand, bitting, saddling, lunging, double lunging etc. I have gradually introduced backing, with the traditional methods leaning over the saddle until I finally got on.

No problems sitting on him by the mounting block but he panics when asked to walk forward and bolts. No bucking or anything nasty, but pure panic. Unfortunately the first time this occurred a couple of laps round the saddle slipped to the side and I had to bail out before I could get him to relax or slow to a walk - not the ideal start.

Obviously I shall be going back to preliminary steps and building up again, but further ideas are welcome. The big obstacle to overcome is him moving (and still listening to voice commands) with weight on his back - he is fine whilst stationary.

I have a round pen to work in, but unfortunately no experienced helpers or other joc/QUOTE]

As others have said,go back a few steps with the groundwork. De-sensitive to everything ,chucking stuff over him, bouncing all around him etc. leaning over/hanging off /wobbling around- all that stuff. How big are your stables? We sit on all ours in the box first, everything from leaning over to sitting up and riding round with a leader, to then walking round the box solo turning left circles/ right/ stop/start. So all basics are done in an environment they feel safe in and doesn't give huge amounts of room for them to pick up speed to frighten themselves too much. But ideally you need a good person on the ground you can rely on.

 

[Leo Walker]

Micheal Peace has a youtube channel and its worth a look.I only discovered him the other day when I was looking for inspiration for my bad loader, but I watched tons of videos as hes soo sensible and nice with the horses. He gets on and does lots of flexing etc, but he also does a lot of desensitising before he ever gets on as he works alone and says hes too old to play the hero :lol: Might not help, but they videos are worth a watch!

 

[orionstar]

I do a lot of flapping and patting the saddle before I try to mount I pretend mount from the ground over and over again putting weight on the saddle each time from both sides. Long rein with the stirrups loose. I've never had a bad reaction yet with this.

 

[cep]

Micheal Peace has a youtube channel and its worth a look.I only discovered him the other day when I was looking for inspiration for my bad loader, but I watched tons of videos as hes soo sensible and nice with the horses. He gets on and does lots of flexing etc, but he also does a lot of desensitising before he ever gets on as he works alone and says hes too old to play the hero :lol: Might not help, but they videos are worth a watch!

Thank you, I will Google him

 

[cep]

I do a lot of flapping and patting the saddle before I try to mount I pretend mount from the ground over and over again putting weight on the saddle each time from both sides. Long rein with the stirrups loose. I've never had a bad reaction yet with this.

Me too
This one is going to be trickier...
But we'll get there in the end!
Thanks

 

[TPO]

Not read all replies but...

I'd go back to groundwork just to check that all the foundations are solid before moving on again.

I'd do work with the saddle on/off/moving

Depending on what route you've chosen for starting. Personally everything I've started has been in a rope halter so I'd ride in this; avoids the concern of catching/ruining the mouth

When you get on get back off again - that's the release. On and off, on and off from both sides equally. Then two steps and off, build up if there's been a problem rather than straight on for a lap

 

[_GG_]

Cep...I have very much learned over the years with horses that if we are cautious, we can make them believe there is something to be cautious of. I never do things too quietly around horses or too gently. I'm not heavy handed, but if I do something around a horse that scares it, I carry on doing it until the horse teaches itself through realising it is not actually a bad thing happening, that it is ok and the reaction is gone.

To me, desensitising isn't lightly placing a saddle pad on the back. To me it is rubbing a horse all over, with good firm pressure with a saddle pad until it totally accepts it, then doesn't care if you throw it on. Same with the saddle...move it all over the horse, all up and down the back and doing it in a very industrial fashion, far more firmly/quickly than I ever would normally so that the normal is absolutely no issue for them.

Everyone has their own ways and everyone should use what is right for them, but I do very much believe that if you are overly cautious with young horses, you can create more problems than you can ever overcome.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I dont think that overcautious is the same as taking time with handling. I used to spend as long as I felt necessary with youngsters, it took maybe 30 mins to saddle up and so on, but I used to back bareback singlehanded,, using the lunging roller and a hessian sack for my comfort.
I just slipped leg over, and then slipped over, I stood on a couple of bales. If I felt there might be any difficulty, I got a light rider to back him while I handled him.
When backing TB racehorses, I would do all the handling for a few weeks, plenty of handling, then use a racing saddle and long reins, in a controlled environment a light jockey would be assisted on board and hope for the best, I would not put a jockey on board if the horse was not ready.

 

[_GG_]

I dont think that overcautious is the same as taking time with handling. I used to spend as long as I felt necessary with youngsters, it took maybe 30 mins to saddle up and so on, but I used to back bareback singlehanded,, using the lunging roller and a hessian sack for my comfort.
I just slipped leg over, and then slipped over, I stood on a couple of bales. If I felt there might be any difficulty, I got a light rider to back him while I handled him.
When backing TB racehorses, I would do all the handling for a few weeks, plenty of handling, then use a racing saddle and long reins, in a controlled environment a light jockey would be assisted on board and hope for the best, I would not put a jockey on board if the horse was not ready.

I agree...they are not one and the same. Overcautious to me is having a belief as you are doing something with a youngster that something is going to go wrong and doing things cautiously to avoid those things happening. This is where I really do believe horses can read us like books and it is how insecurity and fear can creep in.

Taking time doing the handling and ground work is paramount...I hate rushing horses. I just like to approach everything with confidence. If I have confidence in myself, they will have confidence in me and and that is a good foundation to build on.


As I said before though, there are many ways, we should all find our own method that suits us and the horses we are working with. Let's face it, they are all so very different

 

[anuvb]

We had this happen with mine... no issue actually backing but when I sat on him the first time he bolted and went right back to square one. The best solution was to spend a lot of time desensitising him As well as prepping him for being backed again. Plenty of flappy things above and below him; noise; banging etc. We didn't need a dummy in the end but that's one option as well. And Given that yours doesn't like his Mouth being grabbed I would consider doing some steering and flexions using the reins like classical dressage in hand training.
Good luck

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Cep...I have very much learned over the years with horses that if we are cautious, we can make them believe there is something to be cautious of. I never do things too quietly around horses or too gently. I'm not heavy handed, but if I do something around a horse that scares it, I carry on doing it until the horse teaches itself through realising it is not actually a bad thing happening, that it is ok and the reaction is gone.

To me, desensitising isn't lightly placing a saddle pad on the back. To me it is rubbing a horse all over, with good firm pressure with a saddle pad until it totally accepts it, then doesn't care if you throw it on. Same with the saddle...move it all over the horse, all up and down the back and doing it in a very industrial fashion, far more firmly/quickly than I ever would normally so that the normal is absolutely no issue for them.

Everyone has their own ways and everyone should use what is right for them, but I do very much believe that if you are overly cautious with young horses, you can create more problems than you can ever overcome.

This.

Im currently starting the backing process with my 3yo WB, with help from my sis.

he is a bit of a "fart brain" in that he tends to massively over react, vacate the planet, then crash land and go "oh, that was alright actually".

we dont creep round him, i hurl the saddle pad on, plonk saddle down, flings rugs around with carefree abandon etc.

I have been leaning over him and having him led a few steps round stable before heading out to menage to do the same, i think you really need a groundperson to help you.

 

[nianya]

I had a youngster years ago who was much like this. Great until I got into the saddle and then he panicked. We went back to working him on the lunge, but with the addition of laundry jugs filled with sand attached to his saddle to add weight. This is in addition to all the great suggestions to desensitize him from the ground. I'm not sure you can really do too much groundwork, as long as you are constantly keeping their brain engaged.

 

[asommerville]

I had a breakthrough with mine when I put a big floppy teddy on him - I lunged and long reined with the teddy on and it made a massive difference

 

[vicky86]

I had a horse that did this a while back, he was fine when I first sat on but the moment he took a step forward he shot off and unfortunately I came a cropper. We went back to basics, he had no problem with the saddle or even the weight of me leaning over and being led around. I got back on and the first time he was actually ok but I stayed right down, got him to take a few steps forward then jumped off, I did this a few times in a session until he was walking in a fairly relaxed manor. The next few days I did the same again but then came the sitting up.. at a stand still he was fine, first few steps in a straight line he was fine then we came to the corner he caught sight of me and panicked - luckily this time a stayed on board and got him to calm down.

I carried on with this but he still was very tense about me being above him. I got to stage that I could walk, trot and canter but could not move my hand into his line of vision (he nearly had a nervous breakdown whenever I tried to pat him) and he just never truly felt relaxed with me up there and there would still be the odd time he just freaked .I was really started to think I wouldn't crack him.

In the end I called a guy who practiced natural horsemanship (he was by no means a devout follower of any one method but picked and chose different bits to suit), after never using these methods before I thought it would be worth a try as the normal methods hadn't worked. Obviously the main problem was when he saw me on board or felt me shift my balance significantly. He advised we worked on desensitizing him which we did by using a lunge stick and initially just very gently putting it above him, firstly just lying it over the saddle with a bit of the stick poking out the other side, obviously this was cause for massive panic stations but he just left it there until he accepted it then removed it and repeated it a lot. We built this up gradually until he was happy to be on the lunge in trot with me in the middle flicking the lunge stick right over him with out him batting an eyelid.Then lots of work standing by the mounting block waving and making noise etc. The next time I got on him he was a different horse and managed to progress well.

I suppose its a case of trying to identify what about the backing process he doesn't like - is it the weight, or the balance of the rider, or the height above him. For mine it was certainly my height above him. It must be really hard doing it by yourself but these are things that are possible on your todd. Best of luck.

 

[wench]

I've used sand bags over a saddle before. Not much use for lunging in, but was ok to walk around in to check horse ok with weight in saddle

I've seen a video of someone saying about getting horses used to you being above their head hight, think it was Jason Webb, or Monty Roberts,

In your case I'd think I'd be looking at of videos on YouTube for desensiting. There's some good stuff on there and should help you along the way

 

[cep]

Cep...I have very much learned over the years with horses that if we are cautious, we can make them believe there is something to be cautious of. I never do things too quietly around horses or too gently. I'm not heavy handed, but if I do something around a horse that scares it, I carry on doing it until the horse teaches itself through realising it is not actually a bad thing happening, that it is ok and the reaction is gone.

To me, desensitising isn't lightly placing a saddle pad on the back. To me it is rubbing a horse all over, with good firm pressure with a saddle pad until it totally accepts it, then doesn't care if you throw it on. Same with the saddle...move it all over the horse, all up and down the back and doing it in a very industrial fashion, far more firmly/quickly than I ever would normally so that the normal is absolutely no issue for them.

Everyone has their own ways and everyone should use what is right for them, but I do very much believe that if you are overly cautious with young horses, you can create more problems than you can ever overcome.

Thanks again GG. I have gone back a few steps (incorporating a little more 'natural horsemanship' methods such as using the end of a lunge line to help desensitise) and been a lot more rough with big movements around him. I am quite small and lightweight and used to hopping on nervous ex-racehorses/youngsters, so I think habitually I leant over/got on too quietly and surprised him! I appreciate your input.

 

[cep]

I had a horse that did this a while back, he was fine when I first sat on but the moment he took a step forward he shot off and unfortunately I came a cropper. We went back to basics, he had no problem with the saddle or even the weight of me leaning over and being led around. I got back on and the first time he was actually ok but I stayed right down, got him to take a few steps forward then jumped off, I did this a few times in a session until he was walking in a fairly relaxed manor. The next few days I did the same again but then came the sitting up.. at a stand still he was fine, first few steps in a straight line he was fine then we came to the corner he caught sight of me and panicked - luckily this time a stayed on board and got him to calm down.

I carried on with this but he still was very tense about me being above him. I got to stage that I could walk, trot and canter but could not move my hand into his line of vision (he nearly had a nervous breakdown whenever I tried to pat him) and he just never truly felt relaxed with me up there and there would still be the odd time he just freaked .I was really started to think I wouldn't crack him.

In the end I called a guy who practiced natural horsemanship (he was by no means a devout follower of any one method but picked and chose different bits to suit), after never using these methods before I thought it would be worth a try as the normal methods hadn't worked. Obviously the main problem was when he saw me on board or felt me shift my balance significantly. He advised we worked on desensitizing him which we did by using a lunge stick and initially just very gently putting it above him, firstly just lying it over the saddle with a bit of the stick poking out the other side, obviously this was cause for massive panic stations but he just left it there until he accepted it then removed it and repeated it a lot. We built this up gradually until he was happy to be on the lunge in trot with me in the middle flicking the lunge stick right over him with out him batting an eyelid.Then lots of work standing by the mounting block waving and making noise etc. The next time I got on him he was a different horse and managed to progress well.

I suppose its a case of trying to identify what about the backing process he doesn't like - is it the weight, or the balance of the rider, or the height above him. For mine it was certainly my height above him. It must be really hard doing it by yourself but these are things that are possible on your todd. Best of luck.

Thank you Vicky. It is great to hear about your success in a similar situation. Thank you so much for sharing that and your methods with me. All the best.