Backing Advice Please - Rearing Youngster. A bit long sorry.

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Ladydragon

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Hi All...

I'm hoping someone might have a bit of a light bulb idea that will help our youngster and the lady (a lovely and very experienced professional) who is backing him for me... He's 3yrs old and very quiet in the field and stable... Well mannered and easy to handle all over... Pretty bright but sensitive... His only issue as such, has been the fact that without wanting to humanise him, I would describe him as a bit 'clingy'... He wants to be very close and if he could choose to, will follow like a dog tucked in behind the shoulder so we have worked on those areas to maintain some fresh air between us - his spatial awareness is not the greatest... He bitted very easily and is in a french link full cheek...

This not wanting to go forward or be in front has knocked onto lunging and long lining though and he just does not seem to want to 'work' full stop... He can lunge on a single or double lines and has done so successfully, but, he worked out very quickly that if he nips ahead he can then spin and face - and he is *very* quick... If he's got both lines on (lunging or long lining) he goes up on his back feet, flips his head and pirouettes 180 deg so the outside line flips over his rump and he comes down facing towards you and gets the 'reward' of game over until the lines are untangled...

Have tried running the lines through the bit back to the roller to give a draw rein effect and he did go over as he pirouetted but got up and cocked his back leg in a nice rested position facing back to the lady on the ground... This afternoon she moved the lines in the lowest position and when he went up she was able to drop low behind him and counter his rise a bit - he did two lots of taking four steps forward, with a half rear in between, halting and receiving a reward both times he moved forward rather than up; then decided he'd had enough - up on his back legs except this time he held the rear, pushed himself off the ground so all four feet were tucked beneath him, twisted himself in the air and landed square on his side shoulder to rump... Neither of us have seen anything like it! And he achieved his aim... No more 'work'... Slightly sore on the off fore but not that bad he couldn't cock his back leg and just stand there facing in, patiently waiting for someone to notice him...

The lady working with him is experienced and is working kindly but firmly with him so it's not a reaction to being treated harshly - but she hasn't seen anything like he did tonight and she isn't above taking suggestions from anyone who might have dealt with this before or have some good ideas... She is not scared of him but scared (we all are) he might really do himself an injury if he's prepared to throw himself around like this...

Anyway... Thanks for reading, apologies for the post length and if anyone has some constructive ideas, I'd be grateful to hear them... :)
 
Can you just send him forwards each time he rears? Not just walk forwards but a good trot/canter really make him move, every time he does it. So that he realises that not rearing is the easier option as rearing means he then has to work harder? Just a thought.
 
If he were mine, I'd have him in the round pen without any lines and do everything in my power to always get him moving forwards away from me, even if it took having another helper with a lunge whip to keep the message going FORWARDS - whichever way just AWAY from you not facing you.

The huge advantage of the round pen is that it controls where they can go, and lets you concentrate on driving them forwards.
 
I would forget walking for now just concentrate on forwardness, trot or canter if required but anything to get him moving, it sounds as if there will be no problem stopping when needed to.

I think that any slightly backward thinking horse needs to learn to go when told from day one of lunging, there often seems to be too much emphasis on them walking and halting, something that most well handled youngsters already know from being led in hand, they want to be pushed a little more mentally, constantly stopping and walking is hardly stimulating and he may just be trying to add his own ideas to spice it up a bit.
Once he is trotting forward properly he should just be asked to walk and then halt to change the rein, possibly just the once in each session for a day or so until he is really going, then gradually do a little walking and the odd halt but be ready to send him away if there is any sign of him rearing again.

The handler needs to worry less about him hurting himself, if he continues to behave in this way an injury may be the lesser of two evils.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Can you just send him forwards each time he rears? Not just walk forwards but a good trot/canter really make him move, every time he does it. So that he realises that not rearing is the easier option as rearing means he then has to work harder? Just a thought.
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Thank you for replying... This is exactly what his trainer said she would expect to happen most times - horse goes up and she could continue to push forward so he'd eventually realise that he won't evade her or her request to move by rearing...

I guess the difference with this one (my usual terms of endearment are running thin today) is the way he goes up and pirouettes whilst he's in the air so the one line flips over his body and he comes back down facing her with both lines on one side... I don't know quite how he worked it out as he did it perfectly from the first time but he's up, spin and down facing the 'wrong' way in a flash so she can't push him forward... Just has to turn him, reset the lines etc to start over... He's not at all sweaty or breathy or bothered in any way - as soon as he's back down, he just assumes a relaxed position and waits for her to reorganise him...

:)
 
My youngster loved rearing. When he stood up in long reins, I had them on a cavesson & immediately pulled hard and held him up there - scared him stiff, he didn't try again. I would want to nip that in the bud sharpish.
 
be positive said:
I would forget walking for now just concentrate on forwardness, trot or canter if required but anything to get him moving, it sounds as if there will be no problem stopping when needed to.

I think that any slightly backward thinking horse needs to learn to go when told from day one of lunging, there often seems to be too much emphasis on them walking and halting, something that most well handled youngsters already know from being led in hand, they want to be pushed a little more mentally, constantly stopping and walking is hardly stimulating and he may just be trying to add his own ideas to spice it up a bit.
Once he is trotting forward properly he should just be asked to walk and then halt to change the rein, possibly just the once in each session for a day or so until he is really going, then gradually do a little walking and the odd halt but be ready to send him away if there is any sign of him rearing again.

The handler needs to worry less about him hurting himself, if he continues to behave in this way an injury may be the lesser of two evils.
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Yes, stopping he is very good at... :o

Do you mean lunging with just the one line and would you use a bit or cavesson/head collar?

She has had some nice lunging circles - he is better on the left rein and has cantered and a good trot on the right so he can do it if she can keep on her toes enough to keep driving him forward when he runs ahead to try and turn in... He doesn't rear on a single line - he really does that to dump one line and make it ineffective when he has two on for long lining... I appreciate what you're saying about keeping him going and less halting initially at least - it does make sense...

She was pondering leaving the long lining for now and concentrating on lunging... I'll pass over your thoughts... Thank you... :)
 
shortstuff99 said:
Could you just use a single line for now? So that no matter which direction he lands he still go forwards?
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We were talking of that tonight... One line so if he does turn in/back towards her she can just send him forwards in that direction instead... Thank you...

siennamum said:
My youngster loved rearing. When he stood up in long reins, I had them on a cavesson & immediately pulled hard and held him up there - scared him stiff, he didn't try again. I would want to nip that in the bud sharpish.
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Thank you Siennamum... What type of cavesson were you using? Mine has three rings which are pretty on top of the nose - there aren't any at the side if that makes sense?

Similarly though, when the lines were down low on the roller, by dropping low behind him when he went up she was able to pull against the angle he was going - when he realised that is when he took it even further and pushed off his back legs so his whole body went up and flipped in mid air so he landed on his side... He's too strong to hold in a rear... I totally agree it is something that needs to be stopped... He shocked the living daylights out of me today - hence my post I guess... :)
 
I would just use one line on a cavesson so whichever way he ends up he can still be kept moving, one of mine tried to turn whenever he felt like it, he soon learned it did not mean stopping to be reorganised and now goes forward until I say he can stop and change direction.
Another once threw himself on the floor in temper when not allowed his opinions on how long to work for, once he got up he had a sharp smack on the bum causing a bit of an explosion, he never tried it again and became the most super ridden horse, having started out as a rather spoilt brat.
 
CrazyMare said:
If he were mine, I'd have him in the round pen without any lines and do everything in my power to always get him moving forwards away from me, even if it took having another helper with a lunge whip to keep the message going FORWARDS - whichever way just AWAY from you not facing you.

The huge advantage of the round pen is that it controls where they can go, and lets you concentrate on driving them forwards.
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Apologies CrazyMare... I missed your post...

Unfortunately, I don't have access to a proper pen... We have created a round area using some electric tape and uprights - he was respectful of this initially but after he had a real hissy fit and trashed one side he's not so bothered about bumping it now... So we're a bit more limited in needing him to circle inside it - if that makes sense :confused:

be positive said:
I would just use one line on a cavesson so whichever way he ends up he can still be kept moving, one of mine tried to turn whenever he felt like it, he soon learned it did not mean stopping to be reorganised and now goes forward until I say he can stop and change direction.
Another once threw himself on the floor in temper when not allowed his opinions on how long to work for, once he got up he had a sharp smack on the bum causing a bit of an explosion, he never tried it again and became the most super ridden horse, having started out as a rather spoilt brat.
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Ha...there's hope for him yet then... :) "Glue factory" was about the only words coming out of my mouth to him earlier... :o

As mentioned by CrazyMare - I do think it would be easier with a real pen... If he had an explosion then he's still limited in where he can go... Needs must though and we are stuck with a home made version...
 
siennamum said:
My youngster loved rearing. When he stood up in long reins, I had them on a cavesson & immediately pulled hard and held him up there - scared him stiff, he didn't try again. I would want to nip that in the bud sharpish.
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I did this too. Mine was out hacking round fields on the long lines and decided he wanted to turn right, I said no and up he went, right up and span. I pulled back hard with all my body weight, all 8 stone of me. The lines, were through the lowest ring of the roller which did give me some leverage. It did scare him whitless and I did think he'd be going over, we were on grass and the ground was soft. But he kept his balance and was firmly sent forwards when he was back on all four feet. He never did it again and hasn't under saddle with me either, so it did do the job. It wasn't a habit I was going to tolerate and it wasn't something he'd tried before.
 
Ladydragon said:
As mentioned by CrazyMare - I do think it would be easier with a real pen... If he had an explosion then he's still limited in where he can go... Needs must though and we are stuck with a home made version...
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Is there a yard with one locally that you could hire maybe? Arena hire round here is £8-10 an hour on small 'normal' yards.

Mine only took about 2 sessions to realise that tantrums, throwing herself on the floor etc didn't work, and it was MUCH easier to just get on with it.

Ours is made out of an old slurry pit with a surface in - not glamourous but highly effective!!!

Edit

I've seen pens made out of Herris fencing - Not sure how much I would trust it, but if you could get it, and make it super secure it might work?
 
Any horse behaving like that is just getting away with blue murder. Crack the whip & make it gallop on the lunge if it does it again!
 
Just read the rest-it may be that he is too immature for the long lines-maybe try one line and side reins or similar.
 
CrazyMare said:
Is there a yard with one locally that you could hire maybe? Arena hire round here is £8-10 an hour on small 'normal' yards.

Mine only took about 2 sessions to realise that tantrums, throwing herself on the floor etc didn't work, and it was MUCH easier to just get on with it.

Ours is made out of an old slurry pit with a surface in - not glamourous but highly effective!!!

Edit

I've seen pens made out of Herris fencing - Not sure how much I would trust it, but if you could get it, and make it super secure it might work?
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I'll have a look for those...thank you... I'm not bothered about aesthetics just practicality... :)

There is a place with a large school a few miles away but it's £15-£20 p/hr which isn't really practical for us a few times a week... I don't personally know anyone with a round pen and haven't heard of anyone in the area with one that I could go knocking doors... I have hunted around and priced as it would be handy full stop to have one - it's not an affordable option right now though...

seabsicuit2 said:
Any horse behaving like that is just getting away with blue murder. Crack the whip & make it gallop on the lunge if it does it again!
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Thank you Seabiscuit... As previously mentioned though, I don't have access to a proper pen but hopefully like Bepositive suggested, just keeping him going continuously and to hell with any halting might help... Are you of a similar mind that a single lunge line would be the preferred option? :)

SusieT said:
Just read the rest-it may be that he is too immature for the long lines-maybe try one line and side reins or similar.
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Good point...we were wondering that this evening... We were thinking back to lunging only would be the best option for now and as above, the idea of just keeping him going as much as possible sounds a good idea... Would side reins make it more likely he'd flip backwards if he did go up? Thanks Susie... :)
 
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i'd definitely stick to just 1 lunge line.
tbh though, why not make the most of what he is good at, not what he seems to have such a problem with, at least for now when he's such a baby... once you've got him working happily both ways, in tack, if you have a light enough jockey for him i'd get someone on and have him following a walker, and then gradually having a bit more distance between him and the walker. that's how i did it with one who had a similar attitude to 2 lunge lines... no further problems at all.
 
My Youngster was exactly the same as yours when he was 3. We decided to break him earlier than planned as he was a big boy (he is now 18h at 5!!) and he was also so clingy that he was getting dangerous to handle and he was bored of doing nothing. He was started off by some friends who put him in side reins etc lunged him then backed him. He was fine to start off but then started playing up after a couple of weeks. He would rear then plant and you could chase him forward for a few strides then he would stop and rear again. This scared the life out of me and it was starting to get hopeless.
We tried everything we could think of, we were told to have him shot by 2 so called professionals, but as he was home bred we didn't want to give up. We spoke to one last trainer who said we should turn him away. So what we did in the end was chuck him in a field of other babies for a few months to mature. The trainer the took him from the field and restarted him. We worked him for a few months then gave him the winter off.
This was the best thing we ever did as He never, ever reared again like he did before. He was still occasionally naughty, and still is to some extent.
Some horses just take longer to mature than others, also sometimes putting them in side reins etc just restricts them from moving naturally which can cause them to resist. In my case my boy just needed more time as he is very big and is generally at least a year behind other smaller horses of his age.
It might be worth considering if all else fails....
 
I'd be inclined to leave him for now. Its maybe his way of saying its too soon for him. My big rangy 4yr old is still doing nothing. He's simply not ready yet and I can see that if we tried starting him it would just asking for trouble.
 
I echo this, some are just too immature at 3 & their brains can't take the pressure. If he were mine, I'd try to have a v short positive session (even if it's just leading him around in tack) & then leave it for a while, tbh.
 
I'd say you have 3 options from here-
1) Turn him away and do it properly next time round- you may well have to send him somewhere with facilities for a few weeks
2) Send him somewhere now that has a round pen- he won't be able to avoid forwards with an experienced trainer in there and no lines attached
3) Switch tactics and start taking him for hacks with another horse- initially in hand or led off the other horse. If he's happy with you leaning over etc then 1 day I'd just hop on and ride round. I did this with a 4yr old this year, I have no facilities and she wasn't the most naturally forwards on the lunge so I taught the very basics on the lunge and the rest happened on hacks. It's worked really well as when theyre out on a hack forwards is the obvious place to go
 
my four year old very intelligent and powerful gelding 16.2 thought he would rush off, turn and face and generaly dominate, he only was allowed to do it once, totally runs through lunge cavesson, right thought i, put on headcollar wound lunge line over the nose through headcollar, make square of electric fence, switched on my brain, such as it is!!, got totallly focused took horse in work area said 'right horse do what your told, don't take the pxss and get on with it' said horse obliged instantly end of session received large carrott and adoration due to being a very good boy, and can now be lunged in large field, longreins on a headcollar and is generally compliant, i think this is largely due to instantaneous response to any deviation from compliance and lots of praise where due, he now loves to be 'a good boy'.

i always think of, -twice to a horse is habit - so don't let any habit start if you don't want it.
 
I'd make him understand he has to go forwards on the lunge - using one line and just driving him forwards. Loose schooling too if you can - with two people in there, you can easily turn them again if they switch directions. Then either turn him away, or back him and get him hacking out following another horse. You're sending him too far out of his comfort zone atm, he's saying 'no' and getting away with it.
 
I have broken in a lot of horses and have come across a couple which just refused to long rein. As someone else has said - the mother of all hissy fits and laid down and refused to get up. With these ones, I forget about long reining and just get on them and ride them away - going forward out on the lanes seems to be my favoured option. I also never put my long reins through any stirrups, loops etc. If the horse spins around it is quicker to get 'organised' again.
 
I'd stick to getting him forward on the lunge for now. It's not essential that he long reins if he really can't stand it, plus like others have said, if you turn him away at the end of this summer having got him lunging and backed, he may come back to it next spring anyway.

Thanks for the post by the way, I also have a three year old, and although she hasn't reared whilst I'm working her YET i know she has it in her as she's reared on and off since she was a baby. Posts about "holding" them up there have been really good, as I'd be too scared to do it from her back, so if i can scare her out of it on the long reins it'd be great!
 
Thank you to everyone who commented... Home got a bit chaotic and I've not had chance to reply/update... :)

Aces_High said:
I also never put my long reins through any stirrups, loops etc. If the horse spins around it is quicker to get 'organised' again.
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This is what worked for us... We went 'back to basics' with the lines on but loose and handler just behind his shoulder and someone at the head on a lead rope... Extended the lead rope as 2nd handler moved away, unclipped the lead rope, 2nd handler moved further away, moving past the 2nd handler... All baby steps and he took to this like a duck to water with just one or two rear attempts but his handler kinda stopped and froze to remove any pressure and he'd come back own, have a second or two and move forward again... Now long lining properly, on the roads and into areas he's not walked before quite confidently - and lunging really nicely...

That's the positive aspect...:D The less positive is finding he's really cold backed and chiro can't find anything so about to start the vet investigations... :o

Polotash said:
Thanks for the post by the way, I also have a three year old, and although she hasn't reared whilst I'm working her YET i know she has it in her as she's reared on and off since she was a baby. Posts about "holding" them up there have been really good, as I'd be too scared to do it from her back, so if i can scare her out of it on the long reins it'd be great!
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You're welcome... :) It's been an interesting time with him that's for sure... The 'holding up' obviously appears to work for some but not this lad - as he's demonstrated, when his handler 'held' him in a rear so he couldn't spin or get his head up more he managed to launch off his back legs so he was completely off the ground and pull her from a dropped back on her haunches position, up, forward and yanked off her feet... Still, she appears to have cracked that aspect now - just need to get the cold backed side of things looked into...

:)
 
Sorry to hear about his back :0( Bloomin' horses!

My 3 year old is lunging very nicely now, and still no rearing! I've actually put her in a harbridge on the very loosest setting (onto cavesson, not bit), as she stuck her head up and tried to piss off with me last time we long reined, and it's worked a treat - no more "escaping" work!
 
My horse used to do the spin in at you then rear thing, and your right they are very quick.
I didn't see any effective way of preventing if completely so would just keep putting him back out onto the circle every time, he would get tired and give in. Eventually he stopped. Keeping calm and patient and outlasting him seemed to work.
I have heard of horses throwing themselves on the floor in frustration so maybe that is what he was doing, if it happened again, at the risk of sounding cruel I would get him up and let him continuing (walking) for another 5 mins then call it a day if he behaved.
Forwardness is the key.
 
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