Backing and age....

JFTD said:
Ultimately, bone is a dynamic tissue - it doesn't just develop uniformly regardless of what you're doing with the horse.
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I did not review the article, just pointed to one paper, and one study, which may or may not be correct or relevant, there will be many others, general knowledge and common sense tell us that it is not a good idea to work very young horses. When a horse is brought in to work, a routine which includes a steady increase in workload is generally considered to be beneficial, the horse has to be monitored closely for stresses,strains, and muscle development also mental development has to be taken in to account, resting for a few days , weeks or months as appropriate.
Feed and exercise adjusted accordingly.
 
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MrsD123 said:
I did not review the article, just pointed to one paper, and one study, which may or may not be correct or relevant, there will be many others,
*facepalm* It is NOT a paper or a study - it is an editorial - it is OPINION. It does not link to a peer reviewed article documenting a study to support your comments on age and maximal bone density. That is my point, it does not lend any scientific credence to your argument.

I don't dispute what you're saying, and I'm not suggesting working very young animals. I'm merely disputing the scientific basis for your comments and the differing definitions of "young" animals and "soft" bones. The OP isn't asking for the obvious statements - i.e. doing excessive work with a young horse without training is a bad idea - but asking for opinions on the grey areas (or have I misunderstood, OP?). I don't dispute your right to offer your opinion, but I will dispute you trying to pass off editorials as scientific fact!
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Generally with the ponies we back at 3 1/2, just sitting on and walking round with saddle and bridle, about five minues twice a week for a month then turned away until four.

Large horses I like to have backed at three, individual horse dependant, i find it's easier to teach them the basics while they don't know how strong they are.
If i'd left my mare until four, she'd have killed me. But she is now responsive to the voice and i know her so I can feel when she is going to have a moment and correct the behaviour before it explodes.

Totally horse dependant though. I have left some until five as they were barely mature enough to do basic ground work, had a real baby attitude to new situations and needed the time in the field with friends to get brave and learn where their feet were. had one that would buck scare himself and throw himself on the floor. Put him out with a young thug and he learnt how to play and buck and sort out his feet once they landed again. Nothing more dangerous than a horse that is scared of his own movement.
 
Horsesforever1 said:
I have 2 yearlings. one is similar in breeding to the OP's horse and the other is a big heavyweight secD x something-massive-like- belgian-draught. Anyway,this morning I lent over his back,and patted round the girth area on t'other side IYSWIM. no problem. this is how I go about backing. I wont do any more with him til next year, he was just quiet and calm andI thought i'd try it. the lighter weight one will be lent over at 2.
I always get horses used to seeing me above them too, I sit on the field gate climb over fences and so on so they are used to someone "up there".
I get the horse to a stage where it will groom and pickout feet without needing to be tied up,will lead nicely on a normal leather headcollar,stand,wear a roller and numnah,wear boots,be good with the farrier,in other words,have the horse thoroughly "tame" first.
Everything else is a slow progression. I normally back at 2 [I just lean over in the stable or field one day when they are nice and calm,and eventually this leads to leg over and sitting on them.
THis can take ages or only a couple of days. depends on the horse. then I dont do any more until they are 3 or 4 or even older. my last arab,for example,wasnt backed and ridden until she was 6. depends on the horse. theres no rush, it takes as long as it takes, slow and easy wins the day. And i dont lunge.
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I like this approach - and one I hope to take with my lad as the time comes - he looks strong now standing at 15hands with 7" of bone as a yearling so I am sure at 3 he can cope with a sit on once in a while to take the edge off the backing process when he actually goes away to learn his job. He who incidentally receives all of the below at home ... with me ... the hobby breader !!!!!

MrsD123 said:
The mares have been fed a stud mix so that all foal gets all its needs met, it will be well handled and wormed, feet and jabs done routinely, in winter they can be housed and fed according to needs, also a horse walker is often used to develop muscles without having a rider on board.
Basically the horses are selected by breeding for the type required and then managing them to allow them to fulfill their potential.
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Hiya, I am someone who breaks in their third year - I have too this year that have recently been broken - both are very different types but both I felt were ready and would benefit from the stimulation.

So they will be hacked or ridden in the field every other day or two days until the end of the school holidays when they will be turned away until early next year. However mine are very laid back at the moment but if I had something that was a bit sharp I would have no problem in doing something with them every day to keep them stimulated.

Unless they are going through a growth spurt and are bum high I think as long as you are sensible it is better done sooner than later x
 
queenbee said:
I am contemplating it mainly because he loves to be doing things, and working his brain, I want him to just do a little light hacking, walk and a bit of trot, It will keep him occupied and hopefully be enjoyable for him, he is also going to be a big boy so I would like to get the very basics of being ridden established and 'the norm' for him before he starts anything more tasking at 4. I would rather space his training out a bit and make it less like boot camp. If he is mentally and physically able then I just wonder what is the point of leaving a mentally and physically capable horse in the field for an extra year when he could be doing a couple of light hacks going out with the others.
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That's fair enough. It sounds like a sensible, well thought out plan. Different stroke for different folks - just because I leave mine til 4 doesn't mean that I think starting them at 3 is a bad thing. I'm a little bit wary of doing anything with big youngsters because they mature slower, but light backing and quiet hacking isn't exactly taxing.

Also - my take on how 4 yr olds can be established enough to come out in young horse classes if they aren't backed at 3...I learned, and stuck with the german way -young horses were started with higher expectations at an earlier stage of training. Having already learnt to lunge in good form, and been loose jumped over decent sized fences - our 4yr olds were ridden in a correct outline from day one, and were jumping bigger fences almost straight away, so they were very quickly able to come out in young horse classes and demonstrate their ability-often within 6-8 weeks of being sat on for the first time. This is why I don't like starting til 4 - my way of starting would not be appropriate for a real baby, or a weaker rising 4yr old. I leave them until it's clear that they are strong enough to work properly.
 
I have backed horses between the ages of 2 and 8. Each horse was broken in at the time I felt was appropriate for it.

Off topic for a moment and not relevant at all to anything much but it's something I've often wondered. MrsD123 why do you edit almost every single post of yours? :confused:
 
Spring Feather said:
I have backed horses between the ages of 2 and 8. Each horse was broken in at the time I felt was appropriate for it.

Off topic for a moment and not relevant at all to anything much but it's something I've often wondered. MrsD123 why do you edit almost every single post of yours? :confused:
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Because I only recently discovered that I could review the postings, and if I put in one word in the wrong place I will be jumped on, also not good at touch typing , lol
 
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MrsD123 said:
Because I only recently discovered that I could review the postings, and if I put in one word in the wrong place I will be jumped on, also not good at touch typing , lol
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OH FGS Mrs D.. when you edit a post, theres a box at the bottom which says reason.. would you in future mind providing us all with a reason why you have edited..


I like to keep you on your toes old girl :D:D:D:D:p
 
MrsD123 said:
My scientific background tell me this looks like the results of some survey which AH Newmarket might have done [ I have participated in such surveys, which can only be described as pseudo-scientific at best]
A proper experiment would start with a large number of similar horses from identical backgrounds and then split into two group, the control and the experimental, the experiment would be carried out then all would have to be monitored for number of years, I can't see this.
Not many horses are in identical regular work five days a week and if they were "raced around" or stressed out, who would decide this, what would one do with these horse in the experiment?
In the back of my mind I have an idea that some work was done on age of training of racehorses, and it was concluded that they would be better not raced as two year olds, but I don't think many of us would need a survey to work that one out!
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First off I was passed this article some years ago by a vet friend.

I do know that Dr Twink Allen was breeding identical twin foals to do such research with. Non were TBs but mostly large pony types. The embryo was divided and half back into to original mare and the other into a surrogate mare. This was all about 15 years ago.
These horses were being bred to find out the effects of feeding on growth, work, gelding early/late which is why it needed to be with identical animals.
One twin was reared one way and the other differently so that true comparisons could be made.

I will try to find the report which is buried somewhere under something!

As for starting horses before 4 years, it depends on each individual horse, what the owner feels on the matter.

I start 'backing' the foals in that when I lead them I will drape an arm over their backs and pat the opposite side. I will stand on the sleeper hay rack and have the yearlings and two years old horses stand alongside me and fiddle with them and lean into them, I will lead the youngster at three out from another horse, some I will back at three others at four. It depends on not only physical but also mental maturity. Whatever I do the horse will not be 'pounded' into the ground.
 
Last year, My 4 year old was backed at 3 years. It occured over 1 month ish and he was walk, trot and cantered and went on 1 hack is all. He was then turned away from the end of july until march this year and very very slowly bought back into work. He is now working 4 days a week and usually hacked twice and schooled twice for about 20mins average.

I now have a 3 year old exmoor filly. Over the last 2 months I have sat on her about 5 times and walked on her. I'm not going to do much more than this and teach her to long rein and lead next to my other horse on the road. then bring her back into work in march next year.

Just to say about young horse classes. my first one I backed (above) i was aiming at young horse dressage classes but in the end he just wasnt ready. I think in order to get them ready for these classes you would have to back them at 3 1/2 and not turn them away.
 
diamond_light said:
0- 2 i do ground handling teaching to lead tie up pick feet out

commands walk on stand no ( walk trot in hand )

stand when grooming
2 maybe walk round arena in hand doing the same above
plus leading out on road


2 - 1/2 - 3 1/2 gradually teach them to lunge then have saddle on and bridle 3 1/2 / 4 1/2 lunging then backing then lightly schooling grad progressing

dont like doing to much to soon before knees knit id cross and id always better to wait till 5 as their legs take longer to knit . wait a little longer less damage to growing legs and tendons

i was advised not to do any thing serious like jumping till she was at least 6 i have seen to many larger breeds do to much to soon and by 7-8-9 their legs are shot.

one girl i know was jumping her pony Apache at 4 he was doing 5ft jumps by the age of 7 his hocks were shot whats the point wait a little you will have a better outcome with your horse competing for longer
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Very sensible... And shoulders! You always get shoulder issues at 7/8...
 
I was going to back my precious mare that I had owned from a foal as a 3 year old, then turn her away in the usual fashion. Because she got a bone chip this didn't happen, and she had turned 4 before I got on her back. I was pleased that I did that because she had matured a lot physically and mentally in that year, so based on that, and the fact that the Dr Deb article reads like sense to me, I'd leave them utill 4 before getting on. I realise that people think 3 years old is OK, and wouldn't really dispute that if it was just to give a brief introduction to ridden work and then turn them away.
Plenty we can do before them to keep them interested and give them a good education.
I suppose if you're breeding and selling for profit it makes sense to get the horse working at 3. For our pet horses, then what's the rush I suppose?
 
The cob im getting was broken (tack on, rider on etc) when he turned 3. He is mentally very mature. I went to try him and he wasnt phased by anything. I agree with an earlier post that it depends on the horse.
 
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