Backing problems

horsecards

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I have recently purchased a Connie pony that was living out doing nothing, now 8, as expected he was a nervous boy as he knew nothing, all ground work done perfectly, quick learner never questioned but still remained sharp through spookiness..

Sent to a professional breakers.. Walk trot canter up an down the lanes no problems, lovely infact.

In the arena, in canter, he's see's you, your leg, whatever an either shoots off or bucks wanting to come to a stop. He is 100% not being naughty, he is VERY nervous an certainly can't be told off.

I understand this is going to take time.. A lot but can anyone suggest anything to try or to help me with this, as he can't stay at the breakers long term I do believe if this problem can be cracked he will be a very nice pony..

Is there light at the end of the tunnel as I don't want to give up.. Help!
 
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flirtygerty

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I would spend some time doing desensitising work from the ground, show him as many different things as you can, build up to longreining him past and always wear a hat and gloves, my 5yr old cob gets taken round the barn to check out the far machinery, shown flooded fords, cows, bird tables, bird scarers, anything we meet, he gets a quick look at, if he reacts, he gets a longer look, you could put tarps, carrier bags on canes around the arena good luck
 

Equi

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Are they using breaking tack or fitted tack? I know people must be sick to the back teeth of hearing "do the checks" but if he is going fine in a straight line, then i would think in the arena he is either unbalanced and reacting badly (in which case, he needs a lot of balancing work..circles and lunging etc) or he is sore and can't bend. The other option, as above, is he is spooking at the sight of things, maybe try something like wool along the cheek pieces?
 

EQUIDAE

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I'd move him somewhere else. If a horse is reacting that strongly to the leg, the groundwork hasn't been done properly, or the tack doesn't fit. Any trainer who would just push on regardless, especially with a nervous horse, is going to make things worse.
 

Kezzabell2

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I would check the tack too!

I have a connie x tb, who is massively sensitive to the slightest bit of pain and he will let you know about it too! even the small things like the saddle being slightly too tight over his shoulder! the correct fit on his withers but his shoulders are much wider, and he was being restricted by the saddle! he would pin his ears back every time anyone put their leg on to ask him to go forward!! he was getting so pi ss ed off with us he started rearing when he was asked to go forward!
 

Gloi

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Are you sure of his history? Is there a possibility somebody tried to break him in in his younger days, failed and turned him away.
 

horsecards

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I know everything since he came from Ireland but nothing from while he was there.. His tack is made to measure by fylde saddlery so I'm certain it won't be that. In a straight line he can't see you but when asked in the arena that's when problems in canter start.. Thanks for everyone's advice so far!
 

gnubee

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Where has the conclusion come from that the issue is him seeing you? If he is fine to walk/ trot in the school (where presumably he can also see you) and canters fine on hacks then my first guess would have been that he is not yet balanced/ strong enough for the tight corners and is dropping head for balance then muddling up legs/ having head held up by bit and panicking. Or possibly a pain reaction to a poorly fitted saddle - has the horse not changed shape between the saddle fitting and it's current level if training?
If it really is an issue with the horse seeing the rider then you can work on that on the lunge by cantering with stirrups down, things fastened to the saddle etc but it seems an unusual diagnosis for a problem that has other common causes so I would want to be confident in how the issue is understood before you start trying to fix it.
 

horsecards

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The lady I bought him off said she brought him over at 3 cut at 4 an just "sat on" by herself then nothing more done due to other things going on. She's a well known breeder an had many placing at hoys So believed what I was told..
 

madlady

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It sounds like either pain or balance.

Firstly eliminate the pain issue - have tack and back checked. If all that is OK then take him home and hack him. He hasn't yet developed the muscles he needs to carry a rider in balance so - even though he is 8 in terms of education and what you can expect of him he is a 4yo - I wouldn't expect a 4yo to canter a circle with a rider on board.
 

horsecards

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Where has the conclusion come from that the issue is him seeing you? If he is fine to walk/ trot in the school (where presumably he can also see you) and canters fine on hacks then my first guess would have been that he is not yet balanced/ strong enough for the tight corners and is dropping head for balance then muddling up legs/ having head held up by bit and panicking. Or possibly a pain reaction to a poorly fitted saddle - has the horse not changed shape between the saddle fitting and it's current level if training?
If it really is an issue with the horse seeing the rider then you can work on that on the lunge by cantering with stirrups down, things fastened to the saddle etc but it seems an unusual diagnosis for a problem that has other common causes so I would want to be confident in how the issue is understood before you start trying to fix it.

Yes this is something I have thought about, why if in walk an trot he is forward no problems but canter he's not. Physio noticed in his downwards transition from trot to walk he would spread his back leg wider to support himself, which makes me think he needs more work in the slower paces for balance an his confidence..
 

EQUIDAE

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The lady I bought him off said she brought him over at 3 cut at 4 an just "sat on" by herself then nothing more done due to other things going on. She's a well known breeder an had many placing at hoys So believed what I was told..

So he doesn't actually know anything you are asking him. Sounds like he needs proper schooling and training what the aids mean
 

AmyMay

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The lady I bought him off said she brought him over at 3 cut at 4 an just "sat on" by herself then nothing more done due to other things going on. She's a well known breeder an had many placing at hoys So believed what I was told..

I wouldn't be too quick to believe everything you're told. I would suspect that he was tricky to back ultimately, hence why chucked in the field.

If he's home with you, and happily hacking out safely, I'd be tempted to concentrate on that until the spring.
 

poiuytrewq

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Out connie baby was very similar. We gave up totally on schooling as some others have suggested above.
He loved getting out and about so that's what we did and re-introduced a bit of school work at a later date when his ridden work was more established.
 

Dry Rot

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We have a similar one here and today we got him to take a few steps with the girl leaning over his saddle with her feet clear of the ground for the first time. He was purchased mid June -- so five and a half months to get this far. He had had the ground work done before coming here but clearly something had happened and he always looked scared when handled. He would take exception to specific things and the OP's pony spooking at legs sounds par for the course. True, we don't think about time here (it's a hobby) and only worked on him a few days a week, but he was super sensitive to certain things and we just had to work through desensitising for each one.

I am a great believer in plastic on the end of a long stick. When they will accept being stroked all over with that, we move on to an old coat or a sack, whatever they decide they don't like. Food helps.

Funnily, the biggest problem we had today was the pony swinging his backside away from the mounting block when the girl attempted to put any weight on the saddle. It started off OK, then he learnt this trick. It took at least a couple of hours for him to realise that if he wanted his slice of carrot, he had to wait at the block! I must have led him up to it 100 times before the penny dropped.

Time and patience. Just nibble away at the threshold of their latest foible, don't expose them to more than they can handle, and you'll get there -- eventually! The rewards when you do are worth all the frustrations.
 

horsecards

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We have a similar one here and today we got him to take a few steps with the girl leaning over his saddle with her feet clear of the ground for the first time. He was purchased mid June -- so five and a half months to get this far. He had had the ground work done before coming here but clearly something had happened and he always looked scared when handled. He would take exception to specific things and the OP's pony spooking at legs sounds par for the course. True, we don't think about time here (it's a hobby) and only worked on him a few days a week, but he was super sensitive to certain things and we just had to work through desensitising for each one.

I am a great believer in plastic on the end of a long stick. When they will accept being stroked all over with that, we move on to an old coat or a sack, whatever they decide they don't like. Food helps.

Funnily, the biggest problem we had today was the pony swinging his backside away from the mounting block when the girl attempted to put any weight on the saddle. It started off OK, then he learnt this trick. It took at least a couple of hours for him to realise that if he wanted his slice of carrot, he had to wait at the block! I must have led him up to it 100 times before the penny dropped.

Time and patience. Just nibble away at the threshold of their latest foible, don't expose them to more than they can handle, and you'll get there -- eventually! The rewards when you do are worth all the frustrations.

Thank you dry rot for your reply, it's so fustrating because he is a beautiful boy an really has come on leaps an bounds, he does everything asked of him on the ground! I have also found a long stick with flag on the end help a lot too, helped decenitise him to the different sounds an something to look at but to know it's not going to harm him. He is fine getting on from the block, stands nicely! An took to being ridden on and off the lunge well with ecourangement at first! As I say its just the canter but plenty of avenues to look at thanks to all the above suggestions which I'm greatful for!
 

AdorableAlice

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You have some good replies. My advice would be forget the canter in the arena. Even though he isn't a particularly big horse he will find balancing in canter on the turn very difficult. My four year old can canter in a straight line in the field but finds cantering in the arena very tricky. My lad tries very hard to please us but will get panicky if he starts to struggle.

If you can hack him through the winter and just canter in straight lines you will find his strength and muscles will develop. Lateral work in the school in walk and trot will get him supple too.
 

be positive

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Yes I'm very greatful for the replys, it's a stressful time for anyone when horses don't go to plan!

Isn't the first thing we need to learn when owning horses that nothing ever really goes to plan and the best way to train any horse is to always be prepared to change what we are doing, if something is not working we should look for another way to get there, horses do not read the rule books and in my experience every horse is different especially during the backing/ riding away process.

Some do not get canter in an arena for ages, I have sent a few home having not even tried as they were not ready despite going well in walk and trot, possibly even popping a x pole yet it is obvious that they are not going to be ready to canter properly, a nervous pony will require time, confidence, patience, they will get more tense if asked a question that they find physically difficult, if he were mine I would get him home and bring him on slowly to ensure his confidence is built up at a pace he can cope with.
 

horsecards

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Isn't the first thing we need to learn when owning horses that nothing ever really goes to plan and the best way to train any horse is to always be prepared to change what we are doing, if something is not working we should look for another way to get there, horses do not read the rule books and in my experience every horse is different especially during the backing/ riding away process.



Some do not get canter in an arena for ages, I have sent a few home having not even tried as they were not ready despite going well in walk and trot, possibly even popping a x pole yet it is obvious that they are not going to be ready to canter properly, a nervous pony will require time, confidence, patience, they will get more tense if asked a question that they find physically difficult, if he were mine I would get him home and bring him on slowly to ensure his confidence is built up at a pace he can cope with.

Yes completely agree! He's coming home this weekend! :)
 

Dry Rot

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Isn't the first thing we need to learn when owning horses that nothing ever really goes to plan and the best way to train any horse is to always be prepared to change what we are doing, if something is not working we should look for another way to get there, horses do not read the rule books and in my experience every horse is different especially during the backing/ riding away process.

Some do not get canter in an arena for ages, I have sent a few home having not even tried as they were not ready despite going well in walk and trot, possibly even popping a x pole yet it is obvious that they are not going to be ready to canter properly, a nervous pony will require time, confidence, patience, they will get more tense if asked a question that they find physically difficult, if he were mine I would get him home and bring him on slowly to ensure his confidence is built up at a pace he can cope with.

Excellent post! It can't be done according to the calendar and I absolutely agree that if something doesn't work, try something different. And sometimes the best thing to do is nothing! They will often work it out for themselves.
 

Peregrine Falcon

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I had one that was very sensitive to leg. I took it very slowly but ended up putting a pair of old wellies in the stirrups. Being patient and taking time to gain the animals confidence is paramount to future ridden success.
 

madmav

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Warwick Schiller videos on utube maybe worth a watch for dealing with youngsters. I find them fascinating. But I'm not actually dealing with youngsters, so only giving them an in theory thumbs up
 

horsecards

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Hi, recent update

wanted to do some more investigating lol

Lost his flubber since being at the breakers so could see his frame easier then before, called physio, basically he has a lot of false muscle memory, when he tenses an humps his back he's pulling at the wrong muscle areas..

So.. Saddle issues, took him yesterday to a saddler as i wanted this checked again by someone else, told her what history I knew an myself an the breaker think something has happened to frighten him in the school in particular canter.

First thing she pointed out again was his false muscle memory,

Normally i would lunge first, but got straight on this time as lunging is masking a problem, he was tense, she said stand up soon as I did he dropped his back an chilled, sat down again an become tense ( tucking his bum under wanting to shoot forward) little longer sat on as normal an he was fine, relaxed etc

the saddle fitter completely agrees something has happened, he's fallen over or riders come off but thinks the tensing through weight on his back may of been down to a poor fitting saddle that's pinched or damaged ligaments.. An it's now a combination of remembering he's scared an relating to the pain previously..

I just want to make clear that there is NO PAIN areas now, he is just weak

So game plan is.. Work on building correct muscles with everything being in a relaxed environment, stretching, brushing, lunging with Ho aid an long reining, im going to use a product called myoplast within his feed too as i have heard some good reviews.

I have a hired saddle for the next 6-8 weeks that's fitted an flocked to him, bought a numnah with special sponge pads in the back, and the saddler is also ringing physio to ask some more about him in the mean time.


Come back in 6 weeks see if there are improvements, if there are, good carry on if not then we need to be asking why..

1 lock unlocked, plenty more to come ... feeling more positive
 

madlady

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Well at least that is something positive and you've got lots of things that you can work on with him.

Sounds as if he's had a bad start previously poor lad.

Hopefully in 6 weeks time you will be able to see a real difference in him. keep the updates coming :)
 

epeters91

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well done for looking into this and starting to get to the bottom of all his problems he's lucky to have an owner who cares enough to look into these things and stick with him to help him get over it all :)
 

irishdraft

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I had a horse who was exactly the same hacked out all paces fine, walk & trot vin the arena fine, canter either had a bucking fit or took off straight to the fence where he generally stopped and 45 degree turn or jumped out. Sent him to a professional old fashioned nagsman who sorted the bucking but not the taking off after 2 serious accidents I sold him as a happy hacker he just couldn't take the school. I came to the conclusion he had been badly backed in Ireland & vowed never to buy a just backed horse again which I never have. I would now be extremely suspious of anything that comes out of Ireland over the age of 3 supposedly unbacked I suspect your lad has had a bad experience. I hope you get it all sorted out .
 
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