Backing the young horse - NOT the MR way!!

JanetGeorge

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI6MkOXNrl4

I confess I can't back a horse in 10 hours - or should I say I WON'T!! Which would YOU prefer?

The video shows a young (4) RID mare who'd done 4 weeks groundwork before rider went on and this is 5th day with rider on - and first day with rider OFF the lunge!

4 weeks AFTER this video, a potential buyer tried her - a nervous middle-aged lady who had hardly been on a horse since losing hers 6 months ago. The mare stood like a rock at the mounting block - and carried her around in walk, trot and canter without putting a foot wrong! And - funny enough - she didn't need a buckstop at ANY stage of her training!
 

BlackRider

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Well said! so many people think MR is more than a quick fix, and don't realise it isn't the long term solution for a good riding horse.
 

ForeverBroke_

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What a poppet!! If she hasn't been snapped up already by the lady then she's going to make someone a cracking horse - lucky them!
 

JanetGeorge

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What a poppet!! If she hasn't been snapped up already by the lady then she's going to make someone a cracking horse - lucky them!

Lady is VERY torn - she fell in love with a chestnut 3 year old filly who we hadn't even started backing. So we started on her 3 weeks ago - she saw chestnut work and still loves her but of course she wasn't ready to put someone (other than staff) on. And riding Secret swayed her towards HER. But she's coming back next week-end to try chestnut.
 

tallyho!

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I still don't get the whole MR obsession anyway. Plenty of safe horses are started in this country (and many others) in kind and sympathetic fashion using that amazing method... wait for it... common sense. Well done for posting.
 

JanetGeorge

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I still don't get the whole MR obsession anyway. Plenty of safe horses are started in this country (and many others) in kind and sympathetic fashion using that amazing method... wait for it... common sense. Well done for posting.

Exactly! It's all marketing. I'm thinking of launching my own 'school' of horsemanship - perhaps 'No ***** Horsemanship" - has a ring to it??
 

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What a gorgeous mare :)

May I ask what routine you do throughout the whole backing process (like you say 4 wks groundwork, what does this include?) and why you use two sets of reins (one on noseband, one on bit?)

Sorry if I'm being too nosy but its interesting :D
 

ester

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JG your post just reminded me who was it on here who had the spotty that you did a re-break or similar on? just pondering how he was going now!
 

ForeverBroke_

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Lady is VERY torn - she fell in love with a chestnut 3 year old filly who we hadn't even started backing. So we started on her 3 weeks ago - she saw chestnut work and still loves her but of course she wasn't ready to put someone (other than staff) on. And riding Secret swayed her towards HER. But she's coming back next week-end to try chestnut.

Well good luck to her, and both horses in question! Either way she'll be in for a treat I'm sure and many years of happiness - well done! :)
 

Holly Hocks

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Lovely horse! Looks to have such a kind temperament. I wouldn't use MR methods to start a young horse, because I always thought his methods were more directed towards horses which were problematic (aka ballsed up first by another human!), so I do think they have their place in that respect, but as for starting a youngster, then there is no reason to use anything other than common sense I wouldn't have thought.

JG - what do you do with your horses as three year olds? I've got a little 13.3hh NFx filly -she has been taught to lunge (lightly), bitted, long-reins round the school, but most of my work with her involves taking her out walking on the roads in hand as I really really want a pony who has seen as much as possible.....is there anything else you can recommend? She won't be broken in until next year, although has had a saddle on and didn't react at all!Thanks
 

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I'm sure that method sounds familiar....

Marketing though, you'd need something attention grabbing - maybe a special bit of kit? And the time scales are a bit boring, I mean a couple of months - that's as old as the hills, maybe try 20 minutes after chasing for a few hours (ooops - that was the MR mustang one wasn't it? best not then), maybe slow breaking? add a year on twiddling, whoops - not very easy to demo. Oh hell, I don't know, seems to me to make a bundle it's got to be portable, fast, attract the media and have merchandise.

I think, if I'm honest, you might have to forgo the mega bucks and just stick to breaking horses....
 

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how nice to see someone taking time to break a horse, i cant understand why so many people think its clever to be the quickest, im sure its for the publicity half the time.....thanks for sharing

alice flapjack, in case jg doesnt answer re 2 reins, i did exactly the same when i backed my last horse and my reason was so i wouldnt give her a jab in the mouth if the unexpected happened. also as she was used to pressure from a headcollar ii used the rein to the noseband first and gradually got her used to use of the bit....hope that helps, im no expert but it worked very well for me...
 
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LD&S

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI6MkOXNrl4

I confess I can't back a horse in 10 hours - or should I say I WON'T!! Which would YOU prefer?

The video shows a young (4) RID mare who'd done 4 weeks groundwork before rider went on and this is 5th day with rider on - and first day with rider OFF the lunge!

4 weeks AFTER this video, a potential buyer tried her - a nervous middle-aged lady who had hardly been on a horse since losing hers 6 months ago. The mare stood like a rock at the mounting block - and carried her around in walk, trot and canter without putting a foot wrong! And - funny enough - she didn't need a buckstop at ANY stage of her training!

I'm not sure if there is a part of this thread missing, is there a post I can't see extolling the virtues of the buckstop or is this yet another dig at MR?

Surely no matter what their name or reputation whether it be MR, Parelli or the local yard down the road, if someone backs a horse safely without causing pain and fear and encourages others to do the same that at least should be recognised.
 

JanetGeorge

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What a gorgeous mare :)

May I ask what routine you do throughout the whole backing process (like you say 4 wks groundwork, what does this include?) and why you use two sets of reins (one on noseband, one on bit?)

Sorry if I'm being too nosy but its interesting :D

She IS nice - won a strong Yearling class at the Breed Show in 2009 her first (and last) time out. She was late born and came up rather smaller than her siblings - I have a 3 year old full siser who is HUGE (and who won the 2&3 yo class at 3 Counties HER first time out!)

Groundwork is basically lunging - initially just cavesson, then cavesson and roller, then cavesson, bit & roller, then saddle and ride reins added. The aim is to develop balance and get them word perfect to voice commands. Can take 2-5 weeks depending on the individual - she was a touch sharp for an ID.

The two reins is to ensure the mouth is protected. When steering and stopping is just coming you CAN have an emergency and HAVE to pull up. We always start with the rein on the cavesson shorter while gradually introducing the feel of the bit - so the mouth remains sensitive. The pressure on the noseband also helps keep the head in a good position (without using the bit to crank them in.) Youngsters going around with their noses in the air just don't learn to accept the bit. For similar reasons we always have a good helper on the ground with a lunge whip so the rider can use legs lightly - and get back-up from the lunge whip if horse doesn't go forward - rather than having to kick more. Who wants a horse you have to kick and pull?? FAR too much like hard work!:D
 

JanetGeorge

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JG - what do you do with your horses as three year olds? I've got a little 13.3hh NFx filly -she has been taught to lunge (lightly), bitted, long-reins round the school, but most of my work with her involves taking her out walking on the roads in hand as I really really want a pony who has seen as much as possible.....is there anything else you can recommend? She won't be broken in until next year, although has had a saddle on and didn't react at all!Thanks

Most of my 3 year olds are still in the field. We used to back them at 3 - but then I got behind as we had so many visitors - and then I found that backing at 4 was FAR easier. Horses were mentally and physically more mature - and readier to sell at the end of the process.

What you're doing sounds fine!
 

JanetGeorge

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I'm not sure if there is a part of this thread missing, is there a post I can't see extolling the virtues of the buckstop or is this yet another dig at MR?

Surely no matter what their name or reputation whether it be MR, Parelli or the local yard down the road, if someone backs a horse safely without causing pain and fear and encourages others to do the same that at least should be recognised.

Read this thread! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=550028

Anyone who uses a buckstop just so they can back young horses in 10 hours SHOULD be recognised - as a self-promoting idiot who doesn't actually care about a horse's long-term future!!
 

Meowy Catkin

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Most of my 3 year olds are still in the field. We used to back them at 3 - but then I got behind as we had so many visitors - and then I found that backing at 4 was FAR easier. Horses were mentally and physically more mature - and readier to sell at the end of the process.

That's very interesting. I had decided to back my grey at four (and that's what happened) but I had so much pressure from others to start her at three. I'm really glad that I waited as she took to it really well. :)
 

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Love the work you do, I just wish you'd put more videos up on your youtube channel! I liked the spotty you had recently - saw him advertised for sale and thought I recognised the yard.

Let your work stand on its own merits though, as it will, I'm not sure the jibes at MR or any other trainer are necessary, and I found it a little uncomfortable coming from someone I considered a true professional :eek:
 

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Read this thread! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=550028

Anyone who uses a buckstop just so they can back young horses in 10 hours SHOULD be recognised - as a self-promoting idiot who doesn't actually care about a horse's long-term future!!

As I can't access the report referred to I can't comment on it's use in the trials, it is only hearsay but I was led to believe it was part of the kit taken but I don't know if it was used or not.
 

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I'm not sure if there is a part of this thread missing, is there a post I can't see extolling the virtues of the buckstop or is this yet another dig at MR?

Surely no matter what their name or reputation whether it be MR, Parelli or the local yard down the road, if someone backs a horse safely without causing pain and fear and encourages others to do the same that at least should be recognised.

As many people on HHO do indeed recognise the methods JG has used and is still using to back her horses safely without causing pain and fear, unlike the aforementioned Americans who have demonstrated their methods which DO cause pain and fear (including the use of the buck stop and the gumline).
I can never understand why any-one in the UK would listen to these charlatans when they try to tell us that their methods are 'kinder/better' than traditional ones. Traditional American methods are indeed inhumane and 'break' describes them perfectly. Traditional British methods, used by experienced horsemen and women for a very long time, are much less questionable imo.
 

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how nice to see someone taking time to break a horse, i cant understand why so many people think its clever to be the quickest, im sure its for the publicity half the time.....thanks for sharing

alice flapjack, in case jg doesnt answer re 2 reins, i did exactly the same when i backed my last horse and my reason was so i wouldnt give her a jab in the mouth if the unexpected happened. also as she was used to pressure from a headcollar ii used the rein to the noseband first and gradually got her used to use of the bit....hope that helps, im no expert but it worked very well for me...

She IS nice - won a strong Yearling class at the Breed Show in 2009 her first (and last) time out. She was late born and came up rather smaller than her siblings - I have a 3 year old full siser who is HUGE (and who won the 2&3 yo class at 3 Counties HER first time out!)

Groundwork is basically lunging - initially just cavesson, then cavesson and roller, then cavesson, bit & roller, then saddle and ride reins added. The aim is to develop balance and get them word perfect to voice commands. Can take 2-5 weeks depending on the individual - she was a touch sharp for an ID.

The two reins is to ensure the mouth is protected. When steering and stopping is just coming you CAN have an emergency and HAVE to pull up. We always start with the rein on the cavesson shorter while gradually introducing the feel of the bit - so the mouth remains sensitive. The pressure on the noseband also helps keep the head in a good position (without using the bit to crank them in.) Youngsters going around with their noses in the air just don't learn to accept the bit. For similar reasons we always have a good helper on the ground with a lunge whip so the rider can use legs lightly - and get back-up from the lunge whip if horse doesn't go forward - rather than having to kick more. Who wants a horse you have to kick and pull?? FAR too much like hard work!:D

Thank you both! Makes perfect sense when you think about it! :rolleyes: :eek: I am assisting with breaking in horses and ponies over the summer, all for experience/knowledge!
 

JanetGeorge

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Let your work stand on its own merits though, as it will, I'm not sure the jibes at MR or any other trainer are necessary, and I found it a little uncomfortable coming from someone I considered a true professional :eek:

MR and Prat Parelli are the only ones I bother insulting :D - and as both of them have promoted themselves with claims that their way was the only kind way, they can hardly complain!

When MR first stuck his head into the UK I did a bit of research - and it was clear that he jumped from relative obscurity to 'fame' on the back of The Horse Whisperer and claims that HE was the inspiration for the book (which he wasn't!) I learned a bit more when I met Nick Evans during a Newsnight interview - VERY illuminating. But far too many people swallowed him - and Parelli - whole!

To my mind, any trainer who puts young and/or problem horses into a side-show atmosphere and tries to 'fix' them there - against the clock - isn't a trainer's behind! And that goes for a LOT of the people now promoting/adapting their methods in the UK- and horses are suffering!
 

tess1

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As I can't access the report referred to I can't comment on it's use in the trials, it is only hearsay but I was led to believe it was part of the kit taken but I don't know if it was used or not.

You will be able to access it in September (at a cost) or sooner if you are studying at post-grad level or part of a faculty that has access to published research. In the meantime I can absolutely promise you that everything I have said is true with regards to the frequency of buckstopper use and the history of the horses, to the best of my knowledge and understanding of what I have read. There is a graph displayed in the study which indicates the frequency of every piece of equipment used by both Monty and the conventional trainer.
 

Hollywood

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MR and Prat Parelli are the only ones I bother insulting :D - and as both of them have promoted themselves with claims that their way was the only kind way, they can hardly complain!

When MR first stuck his head into the UK I did a bit of research - and it was clear that he jumped from relative obscurity to 'fame' on the back of The Horse Whisperer and claims that HE was the inspiration for the book (which he wasn't!) I learned a bit more when I met Nick Evans during a Newsnight interview - VERY illuminating. But far too many people swallowed him - and Parelli - whole!

To my mind, any trainer who puts young and/or problem horses into a side-show atmosphere and tries to 'fix' them there - against the clock - isn't a trainer's behind! And that goes for a LOT of the people now promoting/adapting their methods in the UK- and horses are suffering!

Well said - I can't understand how some people are so taken in with all the hype around these people and spend their hard earned cash buying their products.

I love watching your clips on breaking your horses - such a good tried and proven method - this is the sort of method that should be promoted more and then there would not be so many ruined horses.
 

maisie06

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Well done! I think lots of people want a quick fix backing these days. No wonder there are so many problem horses around, well actually it's not the horse that is the problem but the owner!
I have often been slated for the fact I have taken so long to do my youngster, (I do a bit then leave him due to other commitments etc) and he is, I am pleased to say a sensible, well rounded youngster who is a reliable hack, yet I still get nagged because he isn't in an outline or competing yet!!
 
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