Backing the young horse - NOT the MR way!!

EllenJay

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Aw Gee, EllenJay - did I ban you?? :rolleyes: An enormous number of members advertise subtly on my forum - as long as they are subtle, and CONTRIBUTE to debates (rather than just plugging themselves) I turn a blind eye!
I have already answered this once - but on thinking about your response I actually find this much more insulting than my original reply. You actuall think that because I am angry about you flouting the t&c's on this forum is beause you banned me from you site is really insulting. just because you may be petty minded does not mean that other people are.

You could not answer the charge that you are advertising so you decide to insinuate that I am annoyed because of a personal issue between us.

Go away - you may be a big person on your own site - but here you are just someone who is flouting the rules to your own profit.
 

tallyho!

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Fwiw... I didn't know that JG was a trainer until she posted this. I thought she was just showing the way many people back horses all over the UK. Now I do know, I still don't think it is advertising!

The amount of stuff posted in here about methods of training could also be classed as advertising if you really want to go down that route but in all fairness. What about breeders advertising stallions? Shoeing issues advertising farriers or barefoot trimmers? Books being mentioned?
 

ChesnutsRoasting

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Fwiw... I didn't know that JG was a trainer until she posted this. I thought she was just showing the way many people back horses all over the UK. Now I do know, I still don't think it is advertising!

The amount of stuff posted in here about methods of training could also be classed as advertising if you really want to go down that route but in all fairness. What about breeders advertising stallions? Shoeing issues advertising farriers or barefoot trimmers? Books being mentioned?
Seriously, you didn't know that JG was trainer? Crikey, I've got half your post count and even I knew that - and I'm not the most observant in the book either!;)
 

EllenJay

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Seriously, you didn't know that JG was trainer? Crikey, I've got half your post count and even I knew that - and I'm not the most observant in the book either!;)
And I have even less- but I knew. JG doesn't post on anything other than training issues - and they are always advertising on how her way is best. Very clever business woman - getting FREE advertising on HHO.

I have button pushed - but no response from TFC - maybe he has a vested interest???
 

tallyho!

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And I have even less- but I knew. JG doesn't post on anything other than training issues - and they are always advertising on how her way is best. Very clever business woman - getting FREE advertising on HHO.

I have button pushed - but no response from TFC - maybe he has a vested interest???
Hey, look, the world is a big place. Just because I don't know who she is does not make me a lesser person than you or blazing saddles. I notice what I want to notice, and take in what is relevant to me. That is how things usually work right?
 

Honey08

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Can't believe someone pushed the button over this thread. Its probably one of the most interesting debates that has been on here for a long time!

I don't actually think that Janet George posts that much, and so what if she is a trainer/breeder. She just posts things that have happened with her - just like anyone else on here does. I'm an instructor, as are many others on here, so are we advertising when we try and help those struggling??
 

EllenJay

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Hey, look, the world is a big place. Just because I don't know who she is does not make me a lesser person than you or blazing saddles. I notice what I want to notice, and take in what is relevant to me. That is how things usually work right?
Sorry - not having a go at you in any way, and in fact really pleased that you hadn't heard of JG, but I am very anoyed about the blatent self advertising that JG is so good at. This woman has a way of advertising her services, with some of the good and great of HHO supporting her. I am not saying that she is a charleton but I do not think that she has the right to slag other people off whilst advertising herself.

My comment about you not knowing whe she was, was down to surprise as she is so good with her personal adverts, and nothing deterimental about your lack of knowledge of who she is.
 

tallyho!

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Well, obviously someone with a bit of previous issues. I hope TFC does not pull such an interesting thread. I personally am thrilled to see a British trainer getting airtime on here and more ought to be joining in not knocking each other out!!!

But hey ho, what do I know....
 

tallyho!

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But ellenjay, with all respect to you, and I do not know of you either, I am missing why she shouldn't have support? Why shouldn't British people have support? Maybe I have missed a crucial piece of information and I am barking up the wrong tree, forgive me if I am. And to all extents and purposes, if you are a trainer, we should be supporting you if you train in a compassionate and caring way.
 

asommerville

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Have seen a number of jg posts not advertising...good advice in general and commented on one of mine re a question i had about a stallion. personally i think its an interesting thread, particularly to someone like me who backed their own or is in the process of backing. i dont see jg say give me your horse and ill break it, just good advice given.

This is not the place for personal issues to be brought up.
 

JanetGeorge

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I have already answered this once - but on thinking about your response I actually find this much more insulting than my original reply. You actuall think that because I am angry about you flouting the t&c's on this forum is beause you banned me from you site is really insulting. just because you may be petty minded does not mean that other people are.

You could not answer the charge that you are advertising so you decide to insinuate that I am annoyed because of a personal issue between us.

Go away - you may be a big person on your own site - but here you are just someone who is flouting the rules to your own profit.
I DID answer the charge of advertising many pages back actually - and there is usually a reason someone takes a set against someone else on a forum! I often find people having a go at me - and when I check their posts I find they are very anti-hunting (so they hate me!)

I actually post far more in the Breeding forum than here - because I am primarily a breeder (and no, I wasn't promoting the grey in the video as she is already sold!) And I don't NEED to promote the training side of my business here - because whenever a thread comes up asking for recommendations, one of my happy customers usually steps in first! I don't NEED to advertise. What I WAS trying to do is to show how some of us 'traditional' trainers bring on a young horse - taking time, patience, and no nasty gadgets!!

As for your last remark - if this thread gets pulled it will be because it has turned 'nasty' - and you will be partly to blame. I've been a member of this forum for more than 10 years and devoted a lot of time and effort to giving advice on a variety of topics to people who will NEVER be customers - I do it because I want to put something back into the horse world and help people (as others have helped me over the past 60 years!) Paid advertising would actually be a FAR cheaper way of promoting my business (if I needed to) than answering numerous posts and PMs from people seeking help. So perhaps YOU should go away and learn a little common courtesy! :rolleyes:
 

EllenJay

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I DID answer the charge of advertising many pages back actually - and there is usually a reason someone takes a set against someone else on a forum! I often find people having a go at me - and when I check their posts I find they are very anti-hunting (so they hate me!)
So you have checked that I havn't been banned from your own site, so you are now bringing out the "I hate hunting card" - where that has come from god know where as I regularly hunted with the East Kent, the Aldenham harriers and others, so that is'nt going to fly, but I still object to your blatent advertising.

I am not in the business - I do not have young horses who I want to sell ( you do). I do not want to sell my training skills - (You do). I do not want to make a mark on the horse world - oH! once again you do!!

Your comments about "If this thread gets pulled it is because it has turned nasty - and you will be partly to blame" - how can you justify that - when, unlike you I am not selling anything. I have nothing to gain - where YOU are going against the rules and blatently advertising your services.

If you had started this post with video samples of how other people had brought on their youngesters sucessfully without blowing your own trumpet I would have given you full support - but no in the usual JG way it is all about you.

And now I am once again ready for the slagging off - "You are unhappy because you ahve been banned from my site" - "Your are unhapy because you are anit hunting" - *"You are unhappy because you own a training yard", "You are unhappy because ................................."
 

sandy3924

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Just wanted to add that my horse was started, as a 5 year old, by a Monty Roberts RA. He spent 5 weeks with this amazing horseman and I couldnt have wished for a better start for my horse. I would recommend this wonderful, caring, knowledgeable horseman in an instant.
 

Syrah

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Does JanetGeorge need to advertise? I doubt it.

I enjoy watching JG's videos and reading her posts as with alot of other posters on here. JG's horses are a credit to her and her staff. Even if this thread hadn't been posted, her yard would have been my first port of call if I was ever to consider riding and owning a horse again.

Keep posting the vids - love them!
 

JanetGeorge

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And now I am once again ready for the slagging off - "You are unhappy because you ahve been banned from my site" - "Your are unhapy because you are anit hunting" - *"You are unhappy because you own a training yard", "You are unhappy because ................................."
Dearie, I have NO idea why you are so miserable! Maybe you don't have a nice bottle of red wine to hand. Or maybe you're sad because your spelling is rubbish! Whatever! Please accept my condolences for your misery! :rolleyes:
 

misterjinglejay

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*poking my head above the parapet to say*

EJ - there does appear to be some personal issues surrounding yourself and JG. Noone else seems to have a problem with this thread, and from what I can see, we're all enjoying, and possibly, learning from it.

It would be a shame for another interesting topic to disappear, and as we are all in this for the good of the horse, surely it makes sense to learn/listen to everyone (with some notable exceptions - granted) - our horses may thank us for it!

So, why not put any personal differences aside, sit back and read, and put some thought into our horses, and not our egos.

*ducking down again, now with coffee*
 

PandorasJar

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Decent thread and nice to see patience in training a horse rather than being rushed. The only issue was perhaps the title, 'not rushed' or something similar may have been more appropriate.

But I think JG has (as she says) put a lot of time on the forum into giving people advice and suggestions foc and without pushing herself as the answer. I certainly think her advice is usually worth taking!

Pan
 

Wheels

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Back to the original topic maybe :D

The video was lovely to watch, this horse has obviously been trained in a nice way, doesn't look scared or stressed and it is also nice to see a cavesson being used along with the bit to start off with.

I am just going through the pre-backing process with my youngster, we are long reining in straightish lines with a dually to begin with and doing some light in-hand work with the bit before introducting lunging in a few weeks. JG's comments on this thread and on other threads where advice has been given has helped me have a better understanding about certain things, particularly tips about really instilling voice commands prior to actually getting on board :)
 

Pale Rider

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I've had a look at the video and I think its very peaceful, and as traditional training goes, excellent.

Compairing what is going on with how we start youngsters, there are of course some differences. Just highlighting what we do differently is not in any way a critcism of this, its just different and what we prefer.

By the time our youngster is this age, we will have been doing groundwork with it on a regular basis.

By the time the horse accepts the saddle and rider to do exactly what is going on here. The horse will have been trained in a rope head collar, it will have been bitted but that is all, the bit for us comes much later.

The horse will circle as in the video, and will maintain gait and direction. I would expect to ask once for walk, trot or canter and the horse will do that. We don't constantly move the schooling whip, it stays in a neutral position. I would only take it out of neutral if the horse failed to change gait when asked.

The rider will be using a rope head collar, and the horse will already understand how to disengage its hind quarters when asked, which is taught on the ground.

Apart from not ever using voice commands, thats about it.

Plenty to discuss there I suppose:)
 

Wheels

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PR that's interesting, you never use voice commands? Not even lunging and long reining or Don't you do those either?
 

PandorasJar

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PR that's interesting, you never use voice commands? Not even lunging and long reining or Don't you do those either?
I find this interesting too.

Personally I'd never do without vocal aids. Great when horses are out in the field and not wanting to be caught to just whistle and come over or call stand and they dutifully freeze. Same if a horse is loose.

My youngster will do vocal commands in the field, she's a bit of a smarty pants and froze with hoof mid air for stand at first to ensure a reward :rolleyes:

I have different tones for diferent commands and then have physical aids to back it up

Pan
 

Wheels

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And also what happens if / when the horse is sold on? If he doesn't know voice aids then that makes life difficult for the new owner surely?
 

Janah

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I use my voice a lot to great effect, and my boy is 21 yrs old, very useful in an emergency situation as well.

As for JG advertising, there are a few livery yard owners on here, so are they advertising?

I think not!

A very interesting thread, and I have no ambition to start a youngster, way beyond me.
 

Lucyad

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There are a lot of folk on here who earn money from horses, in one way or another. it would be a shame if none were allowed to post about their lives, acheivements or experiences. I found the video and discussion very ineresting - thanks for posting.
 

TarrSteps

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It always makes me a bit confused (and sad) that these discussions about how to start/train horses are based on an adversarial premiss - "we" are doing it right, "these other people" are doing it wrong. I just haven't seen that in my travels. I've seen good and bad horsemen in every sphere, producing lovely horses and damaged ones respectively. I haven't generally found it matters much which hat they wear, so long as their principles are sensible, empathetic, take into account the horse's long term health and happiness AND recognise that most horses will have to live in the real world with the rest of us and you're not necessarily doing them any favours by making things too "perfect" or adhering too strictly to a relatively uncommon path.

Why does it have to be "Americans are bad, British people are good"? I don't think because I've met a few people here who seem to assume being British makes them inherently good horsemen (when evidence might suggest otherwise) everyone here feels or acts that way. Nor do I think because you see people hammering driving horses down paved roads here (something you hardly ever see in North America, perhaps outside of Mennonite/Amish etc areas) means everyone thinks that's desirable behaviour. Even saying "cowboys did this" isn't wholly accurate as there are certainly respected trainers with huge following from that school of thought who are brilliant horsemen.

I will say - and this is me being hugely reductionist and judgemental - there do seem to be a lot more defensive people here. I just never hear Americans (or Germans, or French etc) give much time to saying "Those British people are doing it wrong." Maybe it's a New World thing - there is simply not "an American" school of thought - but I am curious why successful people steeped in such tradition of horsemanship feel the need to define themselves externally. What does it matter what other people do if you're doing a good job? And why does other people doing something differently - and successfully - negate your own efforts? I agree it's annoying to see people doing something you love and are good at in a "bad" way but that's hardly limited to one school of thought! People can choose how they progress with their horse - why would we want it to be different?

The "problem" with MR, Parelli et al is the publicity, no? Monty, to give him his due, does not recommend that people break a horse in a day and consider the job done. I agree there's a disconnect in actually DOING that for performance purposes but I guess his original purpose was to prove such a thing could be done without violence (even though he's hardly the only person to think that). Quick "colt starting" is a real tradition in the cowboy world (originally practical, obviously, but now mainly competitive) so I guess his point was you can get that done without tying the horse down etc. Now, whether you agree or not with the basic idea (I do not, because I do not live in a world where the rewards of it outweigh the risks) is a different story but there is a context for his original point.

Should people who have their own horse seek to emulate that? No, of course not. Why? They are not constrained by time AND they don't have the experience to make the right calls that quickly. (Yes, experience comes with practice but if you are going to learn to do something you learn to do it right, then you learn to do it quickly.)

Also, as has been said above, horses are individuals. The guys doing demos do pick and choose appropriate horses. And they admit this but perhaps not firmly and loudly enough.

Starting horses in a day is a "trick", really it is. I guess it comes down to responsibility - is it the responsibility of the showman to explain why the audience cannot/should not do as they do? On the other hand, as also discussed, if someone goes to a Oli Townend demo or buys a Tim Stockdale DVD do they instantly think it makes them an expert at eventing or showjumping?

I would have to agree though with RuthM and her suggestion that GOOD professional starting of horses is underrated. Which is not to say that people can't or shouldn't start their own, but why is it assumed it's "easy" or that every horses would be suitable for every novice to learn on. Learning, by definition, means making mistakes and ANYONE starting a horse does have to at least acknowledge that their mistakes might cost a horse for a life time. If they accept that, if they are humble and make it about the horse, not themselves, then they will probably be all right or at least will get help when they need it.

The minute it becomes about ego, about proving you can do it/do it better, when it stops being always about asking the questions, "Does the horse understand? Is the horse progressing? Are we both safe?" then there are far more likely to be problems.

It's a trick. We all need to work in a proven system (novices and professionals alike) but at the same time, the horse has to always be more important than slavish devotion to ANY system.
 
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