Backward, spooky horse. WWYD ?

ycbm

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I'm looking to compare notes on what other people would do with this horse. I'm not 'unhappy' with how things are progressing, but open to alternative ideas or just support for my current methods.

The horse is six, and I have another six year old who is forward and cheeky and way, way ahead of him in his schooling. I broke both horses at four, though I did not do the initial backing of this one because I was busy with the other. He was handed over sat on, having walked and trotted in an arena, where videos showed him to be very dead to the leg. Both horses have EPSM, successfully treated.

Roll forward to today. He is the spookiest creature I've ever owned, and I've owned a few! He is petrified by grass blowing in the wind, or his own shadow moving, and will spin away at lightning speed. His other speciality is to stop, from any pace, canter to halt with no warning at all. He is backward thinking, but genuinely frightened, as all this nonsense is accompanied by foal licking gestures.

He is the same on a hack, only he does not spin, and he's the same whether he has company or not.

BUT I have trained him to be sharp off my leg to a light leg aid, which he does beautifully unless he is fixating on something scary. And he's not a 'two steps forward one step back' horse. Progress is always made, only agonisingly slowly. At six, he can only just canter a twenty metre circle.

I don't reassure his silliness, I ignore it and praise forward movement. I don't hit him. If I did he would rear or buck. I don't confront this for two reasons. The first is that his fear is genuine even if it's unjustified. The second is that I'm too old for that kind of thing now! I have started to scold him, and that seems to have a small effect in making him bolder. I am also spinning him to stop him planting and that works very well to encourage him to go forward towards things he's tried to spin away from.

So, what would you do with him? I've told him he has two years, when I hit a BIG birthday and I definitely won't want the kind of silly stuff he did today just because it was a bit windy. If he wasn't such a pretty boy he'd have gone long ago!!
 

scats

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I also own a spooky idiot. Has a tendency to be a little behind in the leg at times, but miraculously can produce a spook and subsequent sideways getaway at speeds usually reserved for spacecraft.

What works? Not a lot! I've owned him for 5 years, but found out he had 6 homes in the first 7 years of his life. The best way to deal with mine is to give him a bit of leg when he spooks, not take any messing, but also not make a huge deal out of it. Shoulder-in is my faithful friend when he takes exception to something (a sparrow farting four miles away/a blade of grass that is half a shader lighter than the rest). The bigger of a 'deal' I make it, the worse he gets. I have taken to uttering the words "you really are a ridiculous creature", said with a sigh, and then moving on and forgetting about it.
 

Lanky Loll

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How is he with voice aids? If I've got one that's being a plonker I'll sometimes resort to growling or a strict "get on" - no shouting just firm and accompanied with a leg aid to get them moving on.
I'll also just get them out and seeing as much as possible, all with positive reinforcement - at the end of the day they're bigger than us and I have no wish to get into a pitched battle - but the rule is you do what I ask when I ask and stop being a plonker because I am more patient than you and I will win eventually.
The other thing I can offer up is a number of small people who rocket around our yard on various electric and/or peddle vehicles up and down the barn which does wonders to desensitise youngsters to loud bangs/ traffic and noise!
 

be positive

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He sounds similar to my ISH who is scared of a strange leaf, some flat grass or a pile of droppings left on the road by a "horse eating monster" but will walk past most obviously spooky things, a huge tractor and is oblivious to traffic even after being touched by a passing car, my take is he lacks self confidence, he is the boss in the field and appears brave but in reality it is all a front.

I think these types are the most difficult to change as they are unsure of their place in life, training them to be obedient will help, finding what they can really "get" will also help, mine jumps, he is totally confident over all fillers, loves doing polework and a good session jumping gives him more confidence generally.

I am not sure that bombproofing methods work as it is the slightly unusual out of place leaf that sets them off rather than the more obviously scary object but anything that builds their confidence in themselves as well as in the rider will help, praising when they do well can make them feel pleased and important which is good for self esteem.
 

ycbm

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So glad I'm not alone! If nothing else it will help thinking about you all with horses doing the same thing.

Shall we compare notes on the daftest thing they've jumped off the floor at? Mine was probably the butterfly.

Like yours BP, he is oblivious to really scary things like rattling trailers full of barking dogs or dustbin lorries!
 

be positive

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So glad I'm not alone! If nothing else it will help thinking about you all with horses doing the same thing.

Shall we compare notes on the daftest thing they've jumped off the floor at? Mine was probably the butterfly.

Like yours BP, he is oblivious to really scary things like rattling trailers full of barking dogs or dustbin lorries!

We are not alone and fortunately not together, can you imagine hacking out two or three of these we would be getting nowhere fast and end up hitting the bottle!!!

Daftest thing probably also a butterfly, most consistent daft thing the bits of flat grass where a vehicle has gone onto the verge what he thinks has happened to make the grass flat I have no idea but to him it must be something other than the nice friendly cars he sees every time he goes out.
 

paddi22

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A neighbour had a horse similar and she paid a good jockey to hunt it for a season, it came back a completely different animal, much more mature and forward.

I have an exracer who has a similar temperament and i find i can't give him a second to come up with a thought by himself! Ever step has to be asking him for flexion, bending etc and keeping him thinking. He is much happier when he literally has no decisions to make, the more i work him, the less he has time to look around. As soon as his attention wanders in the slightest, or he takes an ear off me, I ask him for something new
 
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HufflyPuffly

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Topaz is like be positive's lad, acts bold and brave but actually needs her hand holding, this has taken us years to understand and improve.

Having the trust of the horse we found to be the first step and then having her on the aids totally. She trusts us and so when we have her truly between leg and hand she is fab. If I let her attention drop then she will drop off the leg and spook (she is also exceedingly sensitive to all aids, so we then get the delightful scenario of a super reactive horse who drops off the leg and then overreacts to everything else first and me second, my seat has improved massively ;)).

Lots of desensitisation work helps not because we can show her everything that she will ever encounter, but we can work on how we manage her and her reactions when she gets upset. Our current issue (after having a fair few months of being ok in our school), is that we moved some jump fillers so that you only see them just as you get level with them, this has resulted in the most epic stop, spin, drop shoulder and spook manoeuvre she's done in a long time, (however she will now come back to me rather than loose the plot entirely so some improvement still), but we do have to stay in shoulder-in for that section of school for the time being.

I'm not sure we will ever totally train her out of it so that she won't spook, it's just the way her brain is wired, but we can/are training her to trust and listen to us first. She is a complete contrast to my baby horse despite being similar breeding, Skylla is as bold and brave as Topaz isn't (her current favourite thing to do is twang the electric tape and scared the bejesus out of the other horses :eek:).

For us we have accepted that Topaz will never be a relaxing ride, but totally get this sort of horse is not for everyone :eek:.
 

debbielinder

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Mine was exactly the same. I backed him at 4 and he was a saint. got to about 5/6 and turned into a sharp nappy stroppy little ******. I had all the relevant checks done and nothing. I basically hacked him for 12 months we are lucky as we dont have to go on any roads, just helped him think a bit more forwards. It made a huge difference
 

turnbuckle

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Other advice all wiser than I can give, but on the basis of this: "his own shadow moving" suggest you resurrect Alexander the Great to come and school him and/or re-name him Bucephalus......
 

ossy

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My mare was like this in fact she reversed me out of the dressage regional arena mid test last year I could do nothing to persuade her forward. I always thought she was responsive off the leg so didn't think it was because she was behind the leg, that was until I got a new trainer who took one look at us and said she's not between the hand and leg. We took a step back and did a lot of long reining in a mouthing bit and I realised just how dead to the leg and hand she was, it's taken about 8 months but now she is actually in front of leg and soft in the hand, this seems to have given her loads more confidence too and she hasn't reversed with me for months. Sometimes taking a step back and getting a different perspective on things can really help.
 

Micropony

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You are definitely not alone! You are much more experienced than me so I won't presume to offer advice, but comparing current horse and last horse and how they respond to things makes me reflect that with some of them it's just how they are, and although they can be improved, sometimes only very slowly and only so far.

My last (first) horse improved massively over the time I had him and by the end was pretty much bomb proof on the roads, purely through habituation and being very careful to always set things up for him to succeed, by careful choice of hacking companions, routes and paces. But take him somewhere new, or try to hack him alone and you took your chances.

In the school he progressed, very slowly, but would have been faster if I was a better rider. Spooking was sometimes genuine (if totally unreasonable) fear, but often an evasion. It did lessen as I got better at dealing with it but was always a design feature.

He wasn't very comfortable in his own skin unless everything was safe and familiar and predictable and he loved his nice predictable routine. Looking back, I knew he had some issues and although I managed them carefully and the best I could, I now wonder if he was in pain/discomfort a lot of the time. I will never know.

My new horse was 3 when I got him and although I didn't back him myself or anything, we have done a lot of the 'firsts' together- first hack, first clip, first time travelling, first show etc. Although he can get a little tense he gives things the benefit of the doubt, and is just generally filled with confidence about being a ridden horse and what is asked of him. He loves learning and going about doing different things, which would have been the old boy's idea of terrifying hell, he'd have hated it. A better rider could have made him do it, but it would always have been fragile and fraught.

So I guess that's a long winded way of saying that in my limited experience they're all different and sometimes as a rider/trainer there's only so much you can do to change them, especially if the limiting factor is their character rather than the fact that someone else has made loads of mistakes before you got them, which you have the skills to put right.
 

be positive

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Just another thought, mine was on magnesium, he is barefoot and I thought it may help with his nerves, as he got fitter and sharper, coming back from injury, I increased the magnesium until one day I wondered if it was having the opposite effect so stopped using it, he did relax a bit and I felt it may have been contributing to his spookiness, we are supposedly in a low magnesium area but everything I have tried using it on has had no change in behaviour and one or two have become worse, which is why I am sceptical about calmers in general preferring more work less food for most.
 

ycbm

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I have reduced his magnesium because both boys had very cloudy wee and I couldn't see the point of literally peeing money away. I will try leaving it out altogether for a few days. I did wonder about the alfalfa on his chop, as well, but there are no supplies of alfalfa free chop near me, and last year I tried him on stuff I cut myself with scissors from hay and he was no different. But I'll try that experiment again for longer, I think.

Micropony, thank you. Sometimes a less experienced view is actually a good one. He's certainly an individual!

I think it's just his character, as so many of you are saying. He is afraid of life. He likes to always be touching you, even when being led, and he won't ever go out the gate first when I turn them out. He will start off, double back and get behind his field mate. I had started a campaign of getting him out and about which has broken by my eye and wrist problems this year, but we went to the farm ride last Friday and even though he was with his field mate, he did some serious 'seen a ghost' impressions.

Is great to have everyone's stories and ideas.
 

ycbm

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I would send him hunting for the season with a fit young person whose joints all work .
thenseewhere you are in the spring .

I think that's a very good idea GS. In the old days I'd have done it myself. I don't have anyone who would volunteer and I would wince at the cost of paying someone.

I had a similar horse several years back and it improved him enormously to take him hunting. He backslid when I stopped, though, and reverted to refusing to approach every new daffodil. He was an angel on the arena, though.

Can we compare colours? I'm convinced that more of these hyper sensitive beasts are orange than random chance would give you. My very experienced Irish vet says the same and she grew up breeding horses.
 

Goldenstar

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I think that's a very good idea GS. In the old days I'd have done it myself. I don't have anyone who would volunteer and I would wince at the cost of paying someone.

I had a similar horse several years back and it improved him enormously to take him hunting. He backslid when I stopped, though, and reverted to refusing to approach every new daffodil. He was an angel on the arena, though.

Can we compare colours? I'm convinced that more of these hyper sensitive beasts are orange than random chance would give you. My very experienced Irish vet says the same and she grew up breeding horses.

Ask around my FYF ( fit young friend ) loves hunting and riding but has no horse of his own .
He test pilots mine no money changes hands and we have a lot of fun .
I pretty well think of Tatts as his now they get on so well he field masters off Tatts it would be wrong to separate them .
That's what you need a FYF .
 

be positive

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Mine is ginger rather than orange, my now retired bright orange pba was not spooky other than being a normal horse but he had a very good start in life coming to me directly from his breeder, was always confident and level headed.
I seem to have had a fair few chestnuts over the years, my best competition horse was occasionally sharp and could be ridiculous at times, totally out of character as he was generally bombproof, I remember having a heated "discussion" over walking though a field full of sheep, when I bought him he was living in a huge field full of sheep on a sheep farm in Wales, moved to Berkshire and sheep were obviously terrifying, maybe they spoke in a different language.
 

Goldenstar

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Fatty is a forest green
H is a bright verdant green he will forest green when he older .
TAtts is bright purple metallic
C I think he's a orange
And J he's defiantly a pink.
 

ycbm

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Fatty is a forest green
H is a bright verdant green he will forest green when he older .
TAtts is bright purple metallic
C I think he's a orange
And J he's defiantly a pink.

You have a green horse :D ?

I think I need my OH not to see your suggestion that I need to find a FYF !!!

PS by orange I mean any variety of chestnut.
 

Goldenstar

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You have a green horse :D ?

I think I need my OH not to see your suggestion that I need to find a FYF !!!

PS by orange I mean any variety of chestnut.

Opps I am on the wine as I have a hideously sore tooth I am waiting to a root canal done .
I seriously do have a FYF .
 

HufflyPuffly

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Mines black, but half Hackney who are apparently renown for being a bit 'sharp' :eek:.

Also with mine hunting was mind blowing for such a reactive horse, but she does sound a little different to yours as she is not nappy. Just thought I should mention it as I like hunting for teaching a horse about how to use their feet etc, but it is not for the faint hearted with Topaz.
 

AdorableAlice

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Obtain a crash test rider, stop all bucket food (Horse not rider), cub him tomorrow, then find another pack to go with on Friday and Saturday. Then take him on a pleasure ride Sunday. He can have Monday off but still do 20 minutes stretching on the lunge.

Cub him regularly until the season opens and then hunt him properly (he might need a couple of pony nuts) by spring he will have turned into a confident, careful and lovely horse.
 

Palindrome

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I have read that magox can irritate the gut.
Mine is orange and definitely fits the stereotype (although there is no stereotype about chestnut horses where I come from so think it's cultural). Last silliest spook was at someone carrying a haynet, full of hay and same color as her haynet.

She was raisonnably laid back during our last hack. I have swaped the pony nuts to high fibre cubes and I think they agree more with her (she developed thrush not long after I started to feed the pony nuts).
 

ycbm

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That was my first thought.
Then I noted that he is fed alfalfa, some horses react very badly to it. OP, Halley's sell alfalfa free chaff online for next day delivery, in single bags.

Bought, thank you. Two bags minimum order but free delivery.
 
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