Bad barefoot day! Thoughts please, video attached.

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jessieblue

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Again, here I am asking your advice or just your thoughts good and bad. Had a very bad day in my barefoot journey today. 3.5 months into my barefoot adventure with my clever little man, thinking we were doing ok and things getting better and better as far as I was concerned. I had my farrier today to shoe my other (PSD) horse as he usually does. Bare in mind my barefoot horse is looked after by my lovely barefoot trimmer as my farrier couldnt really advise me on caring and rehabilitating a barefoot horse to be in work rather than in a field. So I took on a lovely trimmer to take care of andy who has CLD both fronts and this is why hes barefoot. So farrier came out and we had a discussion about why I wouldnt be able to ride my barefoot horse or do roadwork or eventing on him as he would need shoes to so this with!! Yeah, heated discussion ensued, we agreed to disagree he left with some comments about how my horses hoof wall is weak and wouldnt be able to have a shoe put on now and off he went. This afternoon saw my vet have a look at him and he told me, although his feet have imroved he still had no more heel (he has a much better digital cushion less contracted frog and altogether better feet! (I have posted before and after pics previously if anyone would like to see the feet in previous posts) He then tells me his RF is unbalkanced, it lands lateral first which it shouldnt do and he has flare which needs to be trimmed off right away to balance the hoof! He told me I shoukldnt be walking him on the road as he will put more strain on his collateral ligaments with this flare and imbalance. He then told me he was sadly still landing toe first on both fronts! I am gutted! I felt I was getting somewhere and now Im not so sure. He said there was much more concavity in his feet and they did look much better. He wants me to use a farrier and not a trimmer but I cannot find a barefoot savvy farrier in my area and wanted some positive support in my journey. Here is a video (it should be in slo mo soon) of my horse walking on level concrete with rider on saturday. I must be crazy because I was sure there were signs of a heel first landing coming here and failing that a flat landing. I cant see toe first, but then Im not a vet. Thoughts anyone please, feeling a bit lost today!
http://youtu.be/4mgDu9pZU_I
 
The video looks great. You can't really tell from that angle, but it certainly doesn't look like a toe first landing to me. I think you are being badly supported by your vet and farrier. Can you stick to your trimmer for three months more,and stay away from them?

Is your horse sounder than he was, that's all that really matters,at three months.

Try not to forget that research shows that 80% of horses treated with conventional means for collateral ligament issues never come sound.
 
Thank you cptrayes, you are always there for support i really appreciate it. I have no intention of leaving the trimmer. His feet are much better than they were and he is kind and gentle and supportive. The horse is very sound actually, I havent lunged him on a tight circle, but then I probably never will! He is sound walk and trot on the road and in the menage and on grass even uneven and even on the very hard ground. A little footy over stones. I havent used hoof boots apart from the first 2 weeks and trimmer doesnt think he needs them. I really believe the "heel first" is coming at first the left fore didnt want to know but last 4 weeks its definitely making an appearance on occasion and at worst flat some of the time. I know cos i video weeks and slo mo it and analyse it! I know its not perfect, but surely its early days. I am increasing mileage as he is comfortable with and adding a bit of trot work because he seems to be telling me thats what he wants to do. I was feeling so positive until today and must admit it put a doubt or two in my mind, but Im not ready to quit just yet. If I need to I will send to rockley, in fact my vet is supposed to call them to ask about rehab and then maybe put our name down. I was hoping I may be able to do the job at home myself, but now not so sure. Either way have no intention of putting shoes back on his shiny new feet, would sooner retire him than do that!
 
I can't see what your vet is seeing. The video angle isn't great and your camera person is a bit wobbly but from what I can see, he looks good all round. On occasions he looks to me (and I might be wrong or it could be the angle) that he lands slightly on the side of his RF and pronates (walks on the outside of it). I had one who did this; he had ringbone in his LF and he always tended to walk on the outer edge of that foot rather than dead straight, to avoid the bit that hurt. I must admit I didn't worry too much about it. I am not perfectly straight, I pronate quite a lot on both feet when I walk and run, especially on the right. The horse in question was comfortable, in work and so I never really worried about it. The video doesn't look like an unsound horse to me and I've really had to scrutinise it to find something not-quite-right on it. I don't see any toe first landing and it all looks to me like flat and heel first.
 
JB for fourteen weeks, you don't look like you're going to need Rockley to me, you seem to be doing very well with your trimmer.

To reassure yourself, take video from floor level of the horse walking past you, while you stay still. Play that slomo, I suspect you'll be really pleased with what you see.

It doesn't sound to me like either your vet or farrier actually want this to work :(
 
Thanks chestnut cob! The camera man was meeee! Lol, my excuse was I was trying to lead my other horse whilst walking backwards lol. My husband riding in the video, or rather not riding, he doesnt know how lol! You are right, he does sort of point the RF out to the side and land on the outside edge, this is what the vet had a fit about! He had x rays and MRI and only the Collateral ligament desmitis was found, however the RF was the less injured foot, only one side was affected and to a slight degree the LF was both collaterals and a little more of the ligament affected. Vet described it as "mild" at the time but maybe just sugar coating it?? He does also have "fragmentation" at point of insertion to P3 which is a bit worrying, but I understand this can be quite common with this injury. My vet said he needed trimming to stop him landing like this, but im not sure how that is possible? I was hoping in time it may right itself. I guess the heartbar shoes they wanted to put on would stop him landing this way!
 
Heartbars might stop him landing that way, I don't know. But isn't that a bit like putting lateral extensions on a horse with hock spavins, to (as my vet put it) "straighten his movement"... yes, it straightened the movement but it also made the horse sore and unsound. He walked that way because he could avoid the sore bit, whereas when you force them to walk "correctly", you can end up making them move in a way that hurts more because they have to use the sore bits.

I really don't understand why your vet had a fit about it. No horse is 100% sound and neither are people. We shouldn't be looking for perfection all of the time, just a horse who is comfortable and sound for the job we are asking of him. The horse I mentioned above couldn't go SJ or DR because he wasn't sound enough but he certainly managed plenty of hunting and loved it. We can all get really bogged down sometimes in analysing every little thing and getting despondent when the horse isn't 100% all of the time. Is the horse more sound now than when he shoes came off? If the answer is yes then that's all that matters :) And also, I really had to look to see that. I didn't look at the vid and think "OMG that horse looks dreadful".
 
Ahh bless you both. I feel much better, I knew what I was seeing but it put doubt in my mind. He is most certainly sounder than when his shoes came off and than he was in them. Hes pretty happy and comfortable and thats a good sign because he was a truly miserable horse earlier this year. Not very lame just on a tight lunge on hard 1 - 2/10s and sore when turned away sharp on concrete, but just the odd time. However, he was miserable, tripping a lot and lethargic. I knew something was wrong although everyone kept telling me he had a bruised sole or an abscess! I insisted on mri and CLD was found. I actually think he had a bit of low grade laminitis as well at the time as had heat in feet and DPs. Im not sure the LGL caused his soreness rather than the ligaments but they were obviously a disaster waiting to happen. Many thanks again ladies. x
 
We've been barefoot exactly a year now... He had horrible flat feet in front and pulled a check ligament hence shoes off.
It's not all plain sailing and lots of professionals and outspoken people will all have opinions on your decision to be barefoot.
The hoof will go through so many changes over a year, little bits at a time and my boy went through a stage of having a really weak digital cushion. However he's really starting to pickup. He has a balanced diet, forage, balance minerals and limited grass. I have in recent months been brave enough to take him out without boots for return hacking journeys and Only now have I today gone completely bootless and he coped very well. Normally he's only bootless in the field and schooling.
As I'm sure has been said before, feed from the inside out and the better hoof quality will come. It's hardly a surprise there's a bit of rubbish hoof... Hell...it's the crud stuff growing out. You didn't make the decision lightly and you're doing what YOU believe it right by your horse.
Give those tootsies a chance to grow and get the right stimulation and 12months from now your horse is going to have completely different stance and feet.

That does remind me I really need to post the pics of our progress!

Chin up, good luck and do what you believe is working. If he's sounder now barefoot then that's telling you something is working right :)
 
Look flat or heel first to me, definitely not toe first even from that angle. The r front looks to be landing laterally but as CPT says surely the important thing is, is he sounder? I'm afraid I find it very odd the vet wants you to switch to a farrier when he says the hooves have improved! Surely to continue as you are will bring even more improvement! lol Why change what is working when time (at the horses pace) is a huge element in rehab?!

Have a big hug!
 
I don't see what your vet is seeing either! He looks great to me, lovely heel first landing most of the time! My pony walks on the outside of his RF foot always has, he's 22 and barefoot and still doing 10 mile pleasure rides :) Keep doing what you're doing and prove the farrier and vet wrong!
 
Put the camera recording on the ground and walk the horse in hand towards it then repeat from the side. It doesn't look toe first to me either.
 
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Thank you thank you. I will do! Its becoming my reason for living just to show them. But sadly i also want to get through and open their eyes. Its so very frustrating! X
 
jessieblue said:
Thank you thank you. I will do! Its becoming my reason for living just to show them. But sadly i also want to get through and open their eyes. Its so very frustrating! X
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Ah. Curing horses vets and farriers say can't be cured. Miracle.

Opening the eyes of those who don't want to see. Impossible.

Don't hold your breath JB, my vet has seen me do two now and he is still recommending that horses which could be saved are put down.
 
cptrayes said:
Opening the eyes of those who don't want to see. Impossible.
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I agree, forget trying to prove a point just concentrate on you and your horse, you don't need the extra pressure.
Keep records, photos and videos and look at them to check you are still on track and progressing. x

ps. The horses response and soundness is the real measure.
 
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Definitely doesn't look like a toe first landing to me! I'd carry on doing as you are. If your horse is improving and he is sound then I don't see why your vet is pushing you to change the things your doing if there is a clear improvement?

Well done for sticking at BF :-) What a lovely horse you have!
 
Thank you jess. He is a lovely boy. I have 2 lovely horses but very bad lyck. The other is a light hack now really with psd. Andy was my replacement be90 horse and he has collateral ligament desmitis! I just want to do the best i can for them. Psd horses shoes coming off next!

You are right of course ladies i dont need to convert them. I will jyst focus on my boys. X
 
I don't know if it helps but it took a while for Frank to stop landing laterally - on both feet- much worse on the lame one. He still lands a little laterally particularly on the sound foot- as such he doesn't wear straight - but actually the assymetric wear then helps his landing (he is trimmed every 6 weeks though).

You might have technically said he needed more heel that he has now (had flat pedal bones) but in fact he has a much beefier frogs etc and the fact that he no longer has flat soles or bullnosing makes me think the pedal bones are happier ;).

But you know what, he is sound, happy on pretty much all surfaces so they seem to be working for him- my vet was also a bit critical about his feet when he last saw him but we have quite a good relationship/I can just shrug him off and say working though ;).

So basically don't despair to much and have a hug (I can pass on some wonky video footage if you'd like to see it).
 
chestnut cob said:
I can't see what your vet is seeing. The video angle isn't great and your camera person is a bit wobbly but from what I can see, he looks good all round. On occasions he looks to me (and I might be wrong or it could be the angle) that he lands slightly on the side of his RF and pronates (walks on the outside of it). I had one who did this; he had ringbone in his LF and he always tended to walk on the outer edge of that foot rather than dead straight, to avoid the bit that hurt. I must admit I didn't worry too much about it. I am not perfectly straight, I pronate quite a lot on both feet when I walk and run, especially on the right. The horse in question was comfortable, in work and so I never really worried about it. The video doesn't look like an unsound horse to me and I've really had to scrutinise it to find something not-quite-right on it. I don't see any toe first landing and it all looks to me like flat and heel first.
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That is what I thought too. He does seem to land to the outside of his RF but I can't see a toe first landing! I think you are both doing really well :) 3.5months isn't a long time at all when it comes to hooves so I'm sure there will be more improvements to come. You are doing everything in your power to help your horse!

I'm going through similar things right now with my mare who has medial collateral ligament damage to her RF. She has been barefoot behind since well before her injury but front shoes came off the day of the injury and have stayed off since (3.5months ago like you!) and I managed to get a trimmer out to her last week. She has good feet though but I have moments when I wonder if I am doing the right thing by keeping her going. She isn't in pain from all I can see but vet is certain she won't be sound or be able to return to ridden work. The last time I spoke to him when when he told me the results of the MRI and said I could try turning her out in a small paddock (about 25x25m) and see how she goes or PTS. He did say if I ever wanted him to come out and have a look at her he would but he has painted a bleak picture. I have decided that unless my horse gets worse and needs vet attention that I won't be getting him out until her jags in July (and hopefully she will have improved enough that he will be eating his words)

ETA - it's nice not to feel so alone in all this! I'm glad there are a lot of supportive barefoot people on here
 
starry, im so sorry you had to hear news like that! Can I ask why medial collateral ligament damage carried such a bad prognosis?? I know these injuries are tricky to manage especially with traditional methods, but PTS? WTF?? How lame was she? Was it an acute or chronic injury? I just dont see how you can write something off without trying all the options including barefopot turnaway or whatever. Did you have MRI, was did the report state? I also had a collateral ligament of DIP joint diagnosis, my horse was not lame exactly, well not in a straight line or ridden in circles, just lunged on hard. Then I wonder how many horses would show issues in the hoof if MRI d, I mean I see similar things with lots of the horses on my yard, most owners dont consider them lame unless they hop on a daily basis! Well done for being brave enough to try your own way. I am sure it will pay dividends for you. Wish you the very best of luck! x
 
The results are on this thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?633775-MRI-results-severe-medial-collateral-ligament-damage&highlight=medial+collateral She did also have other small issues with her DDFT and something else I think but vet said that they might not have been caused by the original injury and she could have, infact, had that since well before I bought her 2.5 years ago and been perfectly sound. It was just the damage to the medial collateral ligament that concerned him.

I think my vet is brilliant (in that he is very knowledgeable and he managed to get a lot of money off my MRI scan as my vet fees limit had been reached) and I trust him to treat my horse but he is such a pessimist and I suppose he assumes as I did a lot of riding that I wouldn't want her anymore... I have no idea? When my vet last saw her she was 3-4/10ths lame in trot but she has definitely improved since then (that was the middle of August). I try not to over analyse it all too much but the last time I properly walked and trotted her up she was sound in walk on soft and hard ground and ever so slightly lame in trot on a sand surface (friend who watched said it looks like she is moving RF slightly differently to compensate), I haven't watched her on a circle for a while. I have been meaning to get videos to keep a proper note on improvements/changes etc but I need to borrow a 2nd person to video and everyone at the yard has been so busy recently I haven't been able to grab someone at a good moment but hopefully tonight I can borrow a friend!
 
Starry23 there is published research showing that there is a 20% or lower success rate in treating collateral ligament damage with shoes on and conventional medical intervention. That's why your vet is so pessimistic. On the other hand, Rockley Farm has now cured one after another after another and there are plenty of others in the care of trimmers as well. I reckon the cure rate is at least four times as good as for the conventional route.

You sound like you are doing fine. For more support check the blog at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com
 
Wow starry, I just read your thread. I want to say how admirable of you to make this commitment to your horse. What a beautiful thing and how brave of you. I will cross everything for you that maybe rockley can help or if not I believe with your love and time giving her a chance she will surprise you in time. Its bad to say but dont believe everything the medics say, I think they sometimes have trouble looking "outside the box" I wish you the best of luck, please keep in touch I would love to know your progress. Big hugs to you for being such a wonderful owner!
 
Thank you. I do follow Rockley (but hadn't seen that blog post amandap - thanks) I did email with the results but never got a reply but as we seem to be coping fairly well and I have seen improvements since the scan at the start of Sept I'm not going to push for advice as it won't be possible for me to take Rubic there anyway I'm just going to have to do the best with what I've got at the yard.

I totally agree with what you are saying jessieblue, I'm not sure my vet looks outside the box too often. I think he goes by his experience (which is a lot) but perhaps he hasn't had experience with this type of injury being rehabilitated barefoot? We shall see how things go anyway! I am more of a lurker on the boards but do like to read all the barefoot threads incase something crops up that may be of importance to us so will look out for your threads with interest, I'd like to see how your horse progresses!
 
I will certainly post my progress and look forward to seeing yours! Thanks for that link amandap. Very helpful, it is clearly important to get the fairly level loading of the hoof so I need to improve this on his RF. Seems his LF is doing better in this area. I will have a look at the digital cushion from the palmar view to see any unevenness. The only problem is there is no advice on how to improve the medio lateral balance. Its a shame , but I can understand that rockley dont just want to hand over their methods. Does anyone have any clue how they would go about getting a horse to land square and heel first if it doesnt do so already?? Is it maybe something that will improve with development and comfort? I have no idea if my horse always did this or not, of course shoes would have masked it. Another thing for me to research and try to find that particular piece of the jigsaw puzzle. Frustratingly, I have asked my vet to refer me to rockley but he still hasnt done so!! Cant go until he does, so in the meantime im doing my own thing, just need to find out how they do the "magic" lol
 
Have you thought about having a bodyworker look at your horse help to reset tight muscles? Will give you a good foundation to build on. Diane Daynes is v good.
 
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