Bad manners when rugging up a horse.......would/do you discipline?

[MizElz]

Just interested to know what people think about this! I know a lot of people who have worked in racing who believe that pinning ears back/snaking of the head/snapping teeth when having rugs put on is a sign of well being in a horse, and, as such, they do not discipline in any way. I have also known some people who will smack their horse on the nose for pulling a horrid face. Now my horse is, and always has been, particularly grumpy during rugging, but I tend not to tell her off - the only time she has got a smack is when the teeth snapping actually became a nip on the arm; needless to say she hasnt tried that since!

Biting with intent is something I would always punish, but when it comes to simple face pulling and evil eyes, I tend not to worry too much! It may not appear pretty to onlookers, but as long as Ellie has no evil intentions, it seems pointless to punish her!

That's just my take; what do you all think?

 

[nikkiportia]

I let them pull as many faces as they like, as long as they don't bite me, kick me or refuse to stand still!
You cant tell them off for not smiling

 

[*hic*]

Oooh just gone through this not five minutes ago with our big mare!

Snapping teeth with intent = aggressive stamp from me towards her head accompanied with raised voice - no raised hands though.
Snapping and pulling faces = grumbling from me with voice raising as (if) snapping increases.
Pulling faces = I just chat her mildly through it calling her a grumpy old mare
Stepping away = I GRRRRR at her and tell her to stand (and praise when she does).
Standing still and being generally a nice girl to put a rug on = I praise her lots and chatter to her inanely in a light pleasant voice.

I'm quick to switch from grumbling to praise as soon as she changes her behaviour. When she came she did have rug issues (basically she'd rather be cold) so we are working through it and she is much better than she was.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

they get punished for a nip. also I'd be looking at the rugs to see if they were causing discomfort in any way if my horse was repeatedly pulling faces/tried to nip when rugging.

 

[_OC_]

I do not punish my friends TB and is prone to this and will display ears back and tail swishing....I did work out that she was over rugging him,and his displays showed his displeasure from heavy rugs being piled on his back....quite clearly he was trying to tell us something.....he does it still sometimes and will turn his quarters on you....I just quietly take his headcollar and put it on then his fine,I might make a 'Growling' noise,but that's all.....as for my cob he stands stock still while I rug!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

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I did work out that she was over rugging him,

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IME horses that are 'bad mannered' when rugging up are over rugged

 

[Shilasdair]

I'd try to work out why the mare doesn't like being rugged - too hot, rug rubs, being hit on the legs with the metal belly and leg strap ends, or having it pulled against the lie of her hair. Perhaps the rug 'walks back' overnight and is uncomfortably tight around her chest...?
Then I would expect a horse to stand politely, without biting, striking, kicking or even wriggling or waving legs whilst I do the rug up. I normally rug my youngsters lose in the field - woe betide any of them that ever lifted a leg or attempted a nip....
S

 

[MizElz]

Can completely see that some horses' problems may lie within the fact that they are uncomfortable; the same goes for saddles - a friend of mine couldnt understand why her pony was suddenly going ballistic everytime she saddled her - then after a while found that the saddle didnt fit!!! However, Ellie is a grump regardless of what/how many rugs you put on her. Even an exercise sheet is met with pinned back ears, but if I raise my hand to her, she stares straight ahead with a 'Would I pull a face at you?!?!' expression of incredulity on her face! I think she's toying with me really

 

[Twiglet]

Twiglet isn't a fan of rug changes - ears back, biting the door or tail swishing I tend to ignore........if he lifts a leg or kicks out, he gets a smack on the a*se and a swear word growled at him.

 

[jenbleep]

if he makes a face i don't punish - as soon as he threatens me that he gets a stamped foot or growl and i wouldn't actually touch him unless he got me!

 

[xspiralx]

If they are just pulling faces, I just laugh at them and carry on, but swinging head towards me as though to bite, or actually nipping will get a smack and a growl.

 

[jumpthemoon]

Mine bit me yesterday when I was changing his rugs. Normally he pulls faces, which I ignore, unless he swings his head round to threaten to nip when I would tell him 'NO'. Other day he swung round and 'nipped' me - I looked at my arm later and I have a massive cut and big bruise

It bl00dy hurt so I raised my arms at him and walked towards him (whilst swearing and in pain!) - he backed round the stable and looked sorry for himself afterwards. I'll pay more attention in future though!

 

[pinkcatkin]

My friends horse does exactly that, ears back, snapping teeth swishing tail. She doesn't usually make contact but did manage to nip me the other day when I was changing her rug for which she got a slap. My friend doesn't seem to discipline her at all. This horse has very ingrained habits and it is not easy to change them (she is 15, the horse, not my friend!)

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
My friends horse does exactly that, ears back, snapping teeth swishing tail. She doesn't usually make contact but did manage to nip me the other day when I was changing her rug for which she got a slap. My friend doesn't seem to discipline her at all. This horse has very ingrained habits and it is not easy to change them (she is 15, the horse, not my friend!)

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In that case I would slap the friend.
S

 

[Cop-Pop]

My horse would get into the rugs herself if she could

I expect good manners but failing that as long as no contact is made then they can pull as many faces as they want.

 

[Donkeymad]

Anyone fancy having a go at putting on, adjusting, or taking off a rug from my tiny rescue donkey *cackle* She really is evil, and there doesn't seem to be any reason for it, but we don't know her history.

 

[reddie]

Mine pulls face and puts his ears back when rugging. He's an ex-racer btw. he's definitely not over-rugged and the rugs fit him well. He doesn't try to bit usually so i usually ignore him. Ifhe starts trying to nip or swings round then i growl at him whcih usually has the desired effect!!

 

[Theresa_F]

Breeze used to make faces no matter what rug was put on - sweat rug or heavy NZ, but if you saw the damage marks on her back from ill fitting rugs you could not blame her. As long as she did not make contact I just ignored her.

Once a year she would do the tinest nip - by accident s she used to get closer and closer with her grumpy face - I would give a loud yell and chase her round the stable and then she would just pull faces again maintaining her distance.

Chancer is very good and I have insisted that he stands loose from day one to be rugged - in the stable or the field and any moving off etc and he is firmly put back in place.

Cairo doesn't really like rugs and on the very rare occasion has nipped by bum - more like a little pinch - he gets growled but - but the old bugger tends to get away with most things as he is such an old sweetie.

If any of my chaps did give me a true nip I would first be looking to see why as it would be very out of character.

 

[Ottinmeg]

otto is a face puller at the best of times and also threatens to bite when rugging him, if he makes contact he knows straight away and looks straight ahead as he knows he has done wrong.he usually gets growled at and a slap on the neck for that, otherwise he is just ignored.he is a lot better with rugs now though,when we first got him he would buck when you went near him with a rug!

 

[Reashi]

What your mates say about racing yards isn't true. I don't tell Frankie off for pulling faces, but if he goes to nip me, or actually does, or picks up a leg because of me then I do punish him.

 

[MizElz]

[ QUOTE ]
What your mates say about racing yards isn't true. I don't tell Frankie off for pulling faces, but if he goes to nip me, or actually does, or picks up a leg because of me then I do punish him.

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To be fair it isnt really 'mates' who have said this; one of them used to be Peter Walwyn's Head Lad!!!! Plus several other members of my family have worked in racing for a fair amount of time, so it isnt just a case of hearsay...

 

[TarrSteps]

Horses shouldn't threaten people for all sorts of reasons ranging from it's bad manners to it's only a small step to making contact. People are higher up the herd and you don't threaten the higher ups.

That said, I'd be curious why an otherwise healthy, content, comfortable horse was upset by something as innocuous as having a rug put on. Horses don't get a vote - NEVER threaten - but I don't see anything wrong with considering they might have a valid opinion.

 

[The Virgin Dubble]

With a horse that is difficult to rug, we have always tried to soothe and relax using voice and touch, but if the horse is aggressive rather than defensive then they get a stern voice as warning, and if that doesn't work, they get a smack.

We never tolerate biting though. We had a shettie that used to try and bite, and every time he did it, he would instantly get a sharp kick on the leg. It certainly cured him in a very short space of time.

That said, my OH bent down by one of our horses the other day, and the horse bit him on his back. It broke the skin!

My OH bit the horse back!

 

[merlinsquest]

Must admit that merlin pulls no faces ever for rugging or tacking up etc, so would take him starting as a warning sign of something gone wrong.... rug rubbing or pulling etc.... but if I knew there was no reason and the horse was just being bolshy then I would growl or smack on the neck just to make sure that it didnt escalate into anything worse.

 

[Eceni]

From a clicker perspective of positive reinforcement

a) pulling faces is your horses best attempt at communicating that it's uncomfortable, it's certainly not ever, ever ever, a 'sign of wellbeing

b) punishment is an advanced technique to be used in very exceptional circumstances. It teaches very little in real terms, other than to be wary of the punisher. I'd deal with this long before it got to being bitten, but not by being aggressive

c) if my horse it trying to communicate, it's up to me to read it an to respond intelligently - which in this case would mean:

i) working out why she didn't like the rug - which may be bad previous positive associations, not liking cold on her back if it's cold and she's clipped, finding it painful, not having been introduced to it correctly, having been punished often in association with the rug so that the rug becomes a negative conditioner - all kinds of things.

ii) working with her to sort those things using positive reinforcement, which may mean undoing a number of layers of negative conditioning, but isn't hard, it just means having a different attitude to learning and behaviour.

E

 

[AmyMay]

Nothing wrong with a horse expressing themselves, as long as they do so within the confines of good manners.

Unlike mine I might add - who likes nothing better than to take a chunk out of me everytime I fiddle with his rugs! He doesn't 'do' telling off, so I live with it........

 

[_April_]

[ QUOTE ]
From a clicker perspective of positive reinforcement

a) pulling faces is your horses best attempt at communicating that it's uncomfortable, it's certainly not ever, ever ever, a 'sign of wellbeing

b) punishment is an advanced technique to be used in very exceptional circumstances. It teaches very little in real terms, other than to be wary of the punisher. I'd deal with this long before it got to being bitten, but not by being aggressive

c) if my horse it trying to communicate, it's up to me to read it an to respond intelligently - which in this case would mean:

i) working out why she didn't like the rug - which may be bad previous positive associations, not liking cold on her back if it's cold and she's clipped, finding it painful, not having been introduced to it correctly, having been punished often in association with the rug so that the rug becomes a negative conditioner - all kinds of things.

ii) working with her to sort those things using positive reinforcement, which may mean undoing a number of layers of negative conditioning, but isn't hard, it just means having a different attitude to learning and behaviour.

E

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I like your thoughts. Very well put

Mine is a bit of a grouch to rug and in general before she is groomed, or ridden. Once she has had 'attention' she is completely different, laid back and almost smug and self satisfied.

My amateur take on this is that she is inherently suspicious of what I am going to do with her and it's only after we have interacted for a while that she chills out again.
because she is totally fine with rugs after being ridden, I know it's not the rug but something a bit more complex.

This behaviour used to come out in all manner of things from problems being caught, swinging at people in the stable, to being unable to wash her tail and so on and so on.
Now she knows me (and knows that I will provide fun, feed, jumping and exciting times and that the hard work and schooling isn't every single day) she is a fab horse to handle but I still think that lurking underneath is still a suspicion of humans that rears it's head occasionally.

Phew! So anyway I ignore the faces and tell her not to be an old grouch as I think i have read this particular horse and believe it is just old behaviour that comes out now and again. She has done so well in breaking down the bad behaviour that I don't worry too much about the tiny signs that are left over - I'm sure they will keep improving.
Infact I have found that if I just laugh at her or give her a quick hug she forgets what she was grumbling about lol

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]


To be fair it isnt really 'mates' who have said this; one of them used to be Peter Walwyn's Head Lad!!!! Plus several other members of my family have worked in racing for a fair amount of time, so it isnt just a case of hearsay...

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No - it's not! Fit racehorses can be VERY ticklish - and many object to rugging, saddling, girthing up, and to grooming. When I worked in racing, very few of the horses were actually groomed - it annoyed them FAR too much. They were hosed off after work, put in the sand roll, and 'grooming' consisted of a quick wipe over with a towel, a quick flick through manes and tails and whacking on some hoof oil! If you punished them every time they took a nip at you, you'd make them headshy and nasty!