Bad sportsmanship or just how you play the game?

[Shadowdancing]

I'm not particularly competitive, but I've been around horse shows a lot, mainly watching others compete. I've seen some things going on that I felt were not very sporting, but hey, like I say I'm not competing, maybe it's just me.

I thought it might be interesting to discuss what is and what isn't acceptable in this area, and share some of the incidents we've experienced and bemoan why it happens at all...!!

1- Went to a local show, pretty small. Last class was the down and out. The only one with prize money. Several riders went in for it, including a guy who'd rocked up late in the biggest horsebox I'd seen and was clearly pretty much a professional. However, this guy, apparently a friend of the organiser, sat out the first 5-6 rounds till everyone else was out, then came in and jumped 2 rounds, winning... how was that fair exactly?

2- blocking practice jumps. I've seen this happen twice now, once where a woman had her daughter warm up by circling the practice jumps making it impossible for anyone to use them and said they wouldn't be long when asked to move, and another time where, once they were finished warming up, two riders parked up right in front of the jumps and got into an indepth conversation which apparently made them deaf to requests to move... is this a known tactic?

3- avoiding going first in the jump off- so 3 riders in jump off, one had two horses so had just moved to her second, the first didn't get into the jump off. Member of rider 3's entourage actually went to get her and send her in first even though rider 3 was actually the first one to go clear. Rider 3 then wandered away from entrance and entourage hooked and sent second rider in next so she could go last! I willed organiser to say something but they didn't seem to notice and were too busy chatting.

Soo those are some of my examples.. are they bad sportsmanship or is it just what happens... anyone got any examples of their own.

 

[Flicker]

I know someone who regularly competes Elementary and does very well too. She uses Novice as a 'warm up' and is always in the ribbons. It really irks me because it effectively means that one less rider in that class gets to win a rosette. She's bezzies with the Club secretary so no chance of that changing any time soon...

 

[scats]

I know someone who competes at elementary level dressage, yet enters their pony into 'best figure of eight' fun classes at local shows- a class usually full of just off the lead rein tots.

The mind boggles.

 

[applecart14]

.

Had someone the other day jumping 12 fences in the clear round even though the track was fences 1-8 and fences 9-12 have their numbers placed right underneath them. Steward oblivious. Really annoying.

Went and told show secretary even though I wasn't doing the next class, because I felt it was unfair to the others that were in the first class and had not yet jumped those jumps. She had an unfair advantage over everyone else's horses who were yet to meet the 'scary' fillers. I can understand if its one jump on a line on a related distance and the horse locks on, but other than that - no excuse!

 

[Shadowdancing]

The dressage issue is interesting as I see this all the time, I still can't get my horse consistently over 60% at intro so we're still at that level, still dancing about with our heads in the air, often competing alongside horses that go on to Prelim and Novice the very same day having won the intro and then placed at the higher levels too... it must skew the judging when there is such a difference in the way the horses that are still starting out versus these better schooled ones are going, and it is frustrating but what can you do... they acknowledge themselves they use it as a warm up.

 

[Merlod]

Pot hunting is annoying but a few weeks ago I went to a low level unaff, jumping show and it just baffles me how angry and horrid the children are whilst doing something supposedly fun - spurring, smacking, crying (screaming at one point) and sulking. I also caught a loose horse from the ringside after it went on a runner after the rider fell, only to have someone come over and grab the reins and glare at me.

 

[redredruby]

Had someone the other day jumping 12 fences in the clear round even though the track was fences 1-8 and fences 9-12 have their numbers placed right underneath them. Steward oblivious. Really annoying.

Went and told show secretary even though I wasn't doing the next class, because I felt it was unfair to the others that were in the first class and had not yet jumped those jumps. She had an unfair advantage over everyone else's horses who were yet to meet the 'scary' fillers. I can understand if its one jump on a line on a related distance and the horse locks on, but other than that - no excuse!

When I did my first clear round at a bsja class I did exactly this - simply because I didn't know better! I was told afterwards and was suitably shamefaced! Next time I went they had put poles across the ones you weren't meant to jump!

 

[PaddyMonty]

If people are breaking the rules (even in warm up) then they need to be challenged. If they are abiding by the rules then not a lot you can do. I've taken a horse in a lower open class at BS than the one I wanted to compete at simply because there was a good chance of prize money which helps pay the diesel. Not against the rules as open to all.
If you believe the rules are wrong then a chat with organisers for next time may work.

 

[Shay]

Its difficult because what some see as not sporting others see as perfectly reasonable. For me -to be honest - just live and let live. The only thing I have control over is how I behave. And possibly hopefully how my daughter behaves now she is an adult! Beyond that... life is too short and you'll make yourself miserable moaning about things you can't change.

 

[stencilface]

I don't understand how people can hog a warm up fence, if they're being a holes about it, surely just move it for your rider anyway?

 

[Shadowdancing]

I don't understand how people can hog a warm up fence, if they're being a holes about it, surely just move it for your rider anyway?

Well as I've said it's just stuff I've observed and I had no dog in the fight or rider to move for, but I will say I've never seen anyone moving a practice jump at any show I've been to- the warm up arenas are small at the places I've been to so I guess it's where else would you put them a lot of the time- and it wouldn't have been safe for anyone to try and move one where the child on the pony was cantering around and around them either...

 

[milliepops]

it must skew the judging when there is such a difference in the way the horses that are still starting out versus these better schooled ones are going, and it is frustrating but what can you do... they acknowledge themselves they use it as a warm up.

^^ it shouldn't do- not quite sure what you mean by skewing the judging. Do you mean that the well schooled more advanced horses are getting higher scores, and the green horses are getting lower scores? That's as it should be, surely?

If the class is just full of green horses who are not yet on the bit or in balance, the winner shouldn't be on 70% just because they are the best of the entries - that 70% score should be reserved for horses that meet the criteria of the test more fully. The test might be won on 55% instead if that's the standard of the entrants.

FWIW I don't see the point of pothunting, but if people are competing within the rules then you just have to suck it up

 

[Shadowdancing]

^^ it shouldn't do- not quite sure what you mean by skewing the judging. Do you mean that the well schooled more advanced horses are getting higher scores, and the green horses are getting lower scores? That's as it should be, surely?

If the class is just full of green horses who are not yet on the bit or in balance, the winner shouldn't be on 70% just because they are the best of the entries - that 70% score should be reserved for horses that meet the criteria of the test more fully. The test might be won on 55% instead if that's the standard of the entrants.

FWIW I don't see the point of pothunting, but if people are competing within the rules then you just have to suck it up

Yeah I know... there's nothing you can do and no point getting annoyed about it. But where do you start with a green horse that doesn't work in an outline consistently... if not intro? When you're in an intro and winners/placed horses are getting 70+ and you're sitting there on 57-62 with 2/3rds of the other competitors, you do wonder why they're riding an intro test. That's more what i meant by a skew.

But to be honest I've never seen anything that bad at dressage competitions, which is why I didn't say anything regarding them in my original post. Like you say they've done nothing wrong essentially. It's more the big mixed shows and jumping shows that things appeared more brutal.

 

[Equi]

Showing is an awful and wonderful thing. Here there is one particular man who I really wish ill of. He had never gotten to me cause I know his tactics and I'm not novice enough in miniatures to listen to his lies! He has won nearly every show for the last few years because he has a good stallion he bought already completely produced. But not this year this year I won

Anyway - he will tell all the new comers what is wrong with their horses before they go on "too tall, too fat, not a nice colour" etc and will tell them the judge is fixed so no point showing off, or indeed once he said that if you chat up a particular judge they favor you more. Anything to get into people's heads!

He made an 10yo girl cry because he said her beloved pet mini was not worthy to be showing. He made another one buy a new horse of his choosing (from a known scam artist) because he told her hers was rubbish. He's just an awful
Man. He beats the **** out of the horses to boot. I've got a video of him kicking the stallions penis, and he always boasts about how he doesn't give it water before a show which is why it's so well behaved.

Hes been reported several times but nothing gets done about it. Considering how low the entry's are I don't think they want to stop him - yet fail to realize that he stops many people showing.

 

[milliepops]

Yeah I know... there's nothing you can do and no point getting annoyed about it. But where do you start with a green horse that doesn't work in an outline consistently... if not intro? When you're in an intro and winners/placed horses are getting 70+ and you're sitting there on 57-62 with 2/3rds of the other competitors, you do wonder why they're riding an intro test. That's more what i meant by a skew.

But to be honest I've never seen anything that bad at dressage competitions, which is why I didn't say anything regarding them in my original post. Like you say they've done nothing wrong essentially. It's more the big mixed shows and jumping shows that things appeared more brutal.

Well I can see why that's frustrating, but look at the directives of an intro test. They still require the horse to be to the contact (more or less consistently), soft and over the back, in balance and a good rhythm - just because the movements in the test are less demanding does not mean that the training basics are not required. Granted, they will be more green than a horse competing elementary, say, but the horse & rider should still be demonstrating these elements in order to score highly.

Where else do you go? Well you are obviously welcome to enter the classes if you want to have a go at dressage shows but you have to accept that you aren't yet at the standard required to get the high marks... otherwise concentrate on training at home until more established and then come out & sweep up the ribbons

 

[sychnant]

When you're in an intro and winners/placed horses are getting 70+ and you're sitting there on 57-62 with 2/3rds of the other competitors, you do wonder why they're riding an intro test. That's more what i meant by a skew.

My cob has got 70% plus at Intro 3 times. He's done 13 Intro tests in his life, and has only once scored sub 60%.

We are starting to work towards Prelim - but as he's only been schooling for a year (I got him to hack, entered an Intro test for fun, we got 67.6% and second, so then I started to school and take it a bit more seriously!) we are staying at Intro for now. We tried one Prelim test, just to see how it went, and got 64%, but the canter marks weren't great as I don't have a school, or one I can box to easily.

Just because my cob scores well, why should I move up before we're ready?

We don't always get the best marks and win, we still have plenty to work on. Which we are doing, to the best of our abilities without a school! I'm seriously proud when we do get 70% because I've done all his schooling, with not much knowledge and no facilities. Why should I feel ashamed of our hard work paying off?

 

[Templebar]

Yeah I know... there's nothing you can do and no point getting annoyed about it. But where do you start with a green horse that doesn't work in an outline consistently... if not intro? When you're in an intro and winners/placed horses are getting 70+ and you're sitting there on 57-62 with 2/3rds of the other competitors, you do wonder why they're riding an intro test. That's more what i meant by a skew.

But to be honest I've never seen anything that bad at dressage competitions, which is why I didn't say anything regarding them in my original post. Like you say they've done nothing wrong essentially. It's more the big mixed shows and jumping shows that things appeared more brutal.

I never bother to think of it like that, don't go out to try and win at dressage yes sometimes you get in the placings and it comes to luck of the entries. But try to think of it as improving your own mark, what you pay for its to get a judges point of view not the prizes they are just the icing once you get the scores you deserve as the cake. When you can see your marks improving you will start to see your way up the board.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Yeah I know... there's nothing you can do and no point getting annoyed about it. But where do you start with a green horse that doesn't work in an outline consistently... if not intro? When you're in an intro and winners/placed horses are getting 70+ and you're sitting there on 57-62 with 2/3rds of the other competitors, you do wonder why they're riding an intro test. That's more what i meant by a skew.

It's a competition. If your horse isn't winning then you work your ass off in the school with good instructors until it is. Simple.

 

[Shadowdancing]

I never bother to think of it like that, don't go out to try and win at dressage yes sometimes you get in the placings and it comes to luck of the entries. But try to think of it as improving your own mark, what you pay for its to get a judges point of view not the prizes they are just the icing once you get the scores you deserve as the cake. When you can see your marks improving you will start to see your way up the board.

Sadly I don't think they ever will! My horse is mature now and she's still dancing and spooking around an arena. But I don't jump, she hates being groomed and plaited and standing still for shows and I still want to get her out and about so dressage it is and always will be. At home she works wonderfully and we have regular lessons but she'll never settle elsewhere.

As mentioned in my very first post I don't compete all that much myself, have just started to really, I more often go to support friends. When one of them is just starting out on her youngster and he's turning in a reasonable intro test, and she's seeing that he's up against horses which are going into the higher level classes at the same show and getting placed, she gets downhearted and I understand that. But that's not anything like what I've mentioned in my first post.

As I say it REALLY doesn't bother me personally that much, I'm only repeating what others have said and wouldn't even have mentioned dressage if others hadn't first. I've not seen much nastiness at dressage shows. Maybe I've been lucky but that's just my experience!

 

[Shadowdancing]

Showing is an awful and wonderful thing. Here there is one particular man who I really wish ill of. He had never gotten to me cause I know his tactics and I'm not novice enough in miniatures to listen to his lies! He has won nearly every show for the last few years because he has a good stallion he bought already completely produced. But not this year this year I won

Anyway - he will tell all the new comers what is wrong with their horses before they go on "too tall, too fat, not a nice colour" etc and will tell them the judge is fixed so no point showing off, or indeed once he said that if you chat up a particular judge they favor you more. Anything to get into people's heads!

He made an 10yo girl cry because he said her beloved pet mini was not worthy to be showing. He made another one buy a new horse of his choosing (from a known scam artist) because he told her hers was rubbish. He's just an awful
Man. He beats the **** out of the horses to boot. I've got a video of him kicking the stallions penis, and he always boasts about how he doesn't give it water before a show which is why it's so well behaved.

Hes been reported several times but nothing gets done about it. Considering how low the entry's are I don't think they want to stop him - yet fail to realize that he stops many people showing.

This is exactly what I mean by bad sportsmanship. How do people stoop so low.

 

[fidleyspromise]

I'm not particularly competitive, but I've been around horse shows a lot, mainly watching others compete. I've seen some things going on that I felt were not very sporting, but hey, like I say I'm not competing, maybe it's just me.

I thought it might be interesting to discuss what is and what isn't acceptable in this area, and share some of the incidents we've experienced and bemoan why it happens at all...!!

......

2- blocking practice jumps. I've seen this happen twice now, once where a woman had her daughter warm up by circling the practice jumps making it impossible for anyone to use them and said they wouldn't be long when asked to move, and another time where, once they were finished warming up, two riders parked up right in front of the jumps and got into an indepth conversation which apparently made them deaf to requests to move... is this a known tactic?

............

Soo those are some of my examples.. are they bad sportsmanship or is it just what happens... anyone got any examples of their own.

This is the one that would annoy me - My highland will go through anything at speed so I'd be inclined to shout "jumping" and if they don't move, tough luck. Same with the daughter practicing around the jumps, I'd time it so she had to swerve to avoid my pony.

I've heard of one lead-rein come out of the ring that came 2nd (out of 3) and the handler smacked it several times with the cane before going back for their second class.

I have to say though, on the whole I haven't seen much bad sportsmanship.

 

[Equi]

This is exactly what I mean by bad sportsmanship. How do people stoop so low.

He's such a creep. When I beat him he came over and said "well there's a first time for everything" and slapped me on the bum.

 

[Annagain]

Personally I don't understand sticking at something too easy just to win. I go to challenge myself and do my best, I don't care about rosettes, I just want to be the best I can be.

Archie and I are far from perfect at prelim level but having done dressage from the days when prelim is all there was, it doesn't cross my mind to do an intro. With respect to those doing intro, I'd be bored stiff not having a canter! Likewise with Monty, I find prelims a bit tedious and much prefer to do Novice tests on him. We're doing ok at novice, not amazingly, but again going back to prelim just to win wouldn't satisfy me at all because there's no challenge in it

Having said that, I definitely understand not wanting to leave a comfort zone too. 80-85 is my comfort zone. 90 is my challenge and always will be. I just get a mental block after that. A couple of years ago I went to an unaffiliated ODE. There was a 75 class and a 90 and, having done a BE80 pretty successfully a couple of weeks before, I thought I'd give the 90 a go assuming that, being unaffiliated, it would be kinder than a BE. I was wrong. When I walked the course, I actually cried with nerves.

Chatting to a girl back in the car park she told me she knew of 8 people who had walked it the day before and switched to the 75 overnight. I was sooooo tempted but I knew there wasn't one challenging fence for us on the 75 course and I'd be bored by the time I was half way round. I pulled the brave pants right up and did it, even though I had to get off to be sick in the warm up after the girl before me told me she did BE100 with her other horse and this course wouldn't look out of place at a BE100. I was terrified but was so pleased to get round, even though I'd had one (very silly and all my fault with hindsight) stop and really felt I'd achieved far more than I could have if I'd won the other class. I still know I could never go beyond that though!

 

[MagicMelon]

Have to say OP I dont see much of what you've mentioned as if that happened in my area you can be sure people would be up in arms about it if people were cheating like your guy going in the last few rounds of that class and people messing about with the jump off order, it just doesnt happen (not that Ive ever seen anyway - if it did, I simply wouldnt go back to that venue). Hogging practice jumps is a thing I see quite a lot of, especially at BS. But I dont think its a tactic as such, simply the odd rider being very selfish and thinking they're far more important than everyone else. I just shout a lot - shout politely at their "people" to move when Im approaching, ask them politely to put the jumps back down when they're finished etc. I dont let them put me off. There's been once or twice that someone has literally hogged the jumps so badly and whacked them up so ridiculously high so none of us could get a look in that I've complained to the BS judge or organiser and they've sorted it.

I've seen worse things happening in showing than BE, BS or RC. Just people being nasty to their horses. Saw one last year that I did complain about - watched a Welsh Cob at a big county type show get eliminated in the working hunter, she stormed out of the ring and literally beat the horse over / through (!) the practice jumps for 20 mins straight right in front of seated spectators who were muttering about if this was "normal" with horse people. I did loudly say it was not and went off to complain but by the time I came back she'd gone. I also remember vividly XC jump judging at a PC event years ago, a girls horse stopped at our fence, she'd clearly come off already (covered in stains) but she just started laying into the horse. This girl was only 13 / 14yrs old but full on pelting the horse non-stop with a whip, on its head too. We rushed out of the car to grab the reins and the nearby paramedic was so horrified he screamed at her to get off the horse and walk straight back to the organisers caravan where he'd be complaining to. He led the horse back, wouldn't let her touch it and told the parents exactly what she'd done who I think were quite shocked. Talk about a spoilt, little brat!

 

[Midlifecrisis]

Not sure about this - it happened at the weekend during an arena cross country competition. Winner of class would be the horse and rider who completed course clear and as close to optimum time allowed. The potential winner looked to be just over a second from optimum time - until last rider - a teenager rode the course fast then after penultimate fence looked at clock and pulled horse into walk until 4 seconds left then popped over last fence and with tenths of second to optimum time finished and won the class. Is this allowable? I wasn't competing so not in a position to complain but it seemed totally wrong to me...everyone else rode in a steady consistent rhythm which surely is the "test" - what if everyone had belted round and pulled up to waste time - bizarre behaviour.

 

[LadySam]

He's such a creep. When I beat him he came over and said "well there's a first time for everything" and slapped me on the bum.

 

[Equi]

That was pretty much my own face!

 

[Shadowdancing]

Not sure about this - it happened at the weekend during an arena cross country competition. Winner of class would be the horse and rider who completed course clear and as close to optimum time allowed. The potential winner looked to be just over a second from optimum time - until last rider - a teenager rode the course fast then after penultimate fence looked at clock and pulled horse into walk until 4 seconds left then popped over last fence and with tenths of second to optimum time finished and won the class. Is this allowable? I wasn't competing so not in a position to complain but it seemed totally wrong to me...everyone else rode in a steady consistent rhythm which surely is the "test" - what if everyone had belted round and pulled up to waste time - bizarre behaviour.

See this is what I get confused about- technically that's not doing anything 'wrong' but it is very sly! Similarly is lurking away from the gate when they're calling people in for a jump off wrong or just smart? As with trying to casually block off practice jumps one way or another... is it wrong or a way of getting an advantage...

 

[Shadowdancing]

This is the one that would annoy me - My highland will go through anything at speed so I'd be inclined to shout "jumping" and if they don't move, tough luck. Same with the daughter practicing around the jumps, I'd time it so she had to swerve to avoid my pony.

I've heard of one lead-rein come out of the ring that came 2nd (out of 3) and the handler smacked it several times with the cane before going back for their second class.

I have to say though, on the whole I haven't seen much bad sportsmanship.

Had to laugh at this, my friend who was in the ring at the time has a HUUUUGE coloured cob built like a brick xxx and goes like a rocket when she sees a fence. She's far too meek and polite as a rider otherwise the pair of them could probably have bulldozed that pony out of the road and possibly straight out of the arena.

 

[Annagain]

Not sure about this - it happened at the weekend during an arena cross country competition. Winner of class would be the horse and rider who completed course clear and as close to optimum time allowed. The potential winner looked to be just over a second from optimum time - until last rider - a teenager rode the course fast then after penultimate fence looked at clock and pulled horse into walk until 4 seconds left then popped over last fence and with tenths of second to optimum time finished and won the class. Is this allowable? I wasn't competing so not in a position to complain but it seemed totally wrong to me...everyone else rode in a steady consistent rhythm which surely is the "test" - what if everyone had belted round and pulled up to waste time - bizarre behaviour.

Usually people either aren't told the optimum time (just told "good hunting pace") or clocks / watches aren't allowed. I know they're piloting them at the lower levels of BE now.