Badly fitted saddles and claims courts

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Angelz

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Reading so many threads about badly fitting saddles Im wondering why people dont go to small claims court?

Im currently thinking about doing just that and would like to know why people dont seem to do it?
 
Any sensible saddler who has had a report of a badly fitting saddle he or she has fitted would do the decent thing and go back and sort it out.If the owner and saddler can't agree then it's easier to refund, shake hands and walk away.If there is damage to the horse's back then this would have to be proved which might be difficult.
I've never had that happen to me so can't comment further on that.
I have had a couple of saddles come back (synthetics) 20 odd years ago, the pony just didn't get on with it, I went back and had another look and as far as I could see if fitted perfectly and I had flocked it up to the ponies profile.
Soon as the rider mounted, he bucked.
I refunded and took the saddle back, we parted on good terms, it turned out later that this particular pony didn't like any rider or saddle on it's back, ill fitting or perfectly fitting and I think it was just one of those things.
I don't know if they went on to have his teeth,back etc checked out all I know is they couldn't do anything with him and sold him on, what happened to him after that I have no idea.
I have seen a very badly fitted and flat as a pancake saddle pressing down on the horse's back, when I changed it for a correctly fitted and flocked saddle the horse reacted badly to it but no reaction to the badly fitting one!
Sometimes, it doesn't make sense but I still say, the best saddle fitters in the world are the horse themselves, they react there must be a reason for it.
This is why I refund rather than argue that it fits, we are trained to very high standards and that the horse always comes first before the rider.
 
Mines happy to come out if I pay him and happy to re-flock it if I pay him but the (2nd opinion) report I have from a Master saddler says that it is not possible to correct this by re-flocking only, basically the whole bottom panel needs replacing (its not deep enough to add the required amount of flocking) :-(

The saddle maker has never seen the saddle on the horse but is insistent it just needs re-flocking, he wont even come out to see if what the problem is unless I pay him, the saddle was made to measure less than 3 months ago.

Wish my saddle fitter/maker had the same ethics as you! :-)
 
That's the trouble if there's more than one person invoved, if all of them could be there at the same time to discuss it, it would be better but of course it is not very often possible!
Could you not get a template of the horse's back to show the maker and or a photo?
Is your horse quite high withered?
If you go to court, would the Master Saddle be prepared to make a statement for you?
I have had to give factual statements in the past, some saddlers will back you up, some will not.
 
Angelz said:
Reading so many threads about badly fitting saddles Im wondering why people dont go to small claims court?

Im currently thinking about doing just that and would like to know why people dont seem to do it?
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It's a minefield. You would have to prove your horse hadn't changed shape - i.e. it did fit at one point and horse lost or gained weight

Then explaining to a judge why it doesn't fit would not be easy; as explaining to a lay person how saddles fit a horse will be a challenge

Finally you'd have you prove that even with pads and thick numnahs your saddle isn't fit for purpose
 
Anyone who makes a made to measure saddle without seeing it on the horse is asking for difficulties. We send out the odd saddle on mail order but it comes on a full week's trial as do all our saddles. At the end of the week you can refund it. A saddle HAS to be fitted with a rider, and with seeing the horse in walk trot and canter - a saddle that is fitted to a stationary horse has NOT been fitted.

Buying M2M means you are getting a one off saddle that you usually have to pay for in full before it is made, and you do not have the same rights in law, though I'm not sure how that sits in finer detail. It does mean that it is ALWAYS better to buy a stock item where you can - it's the saddle the fitter sees on the horse, it's the one you ride in, and usually you get in on a trial period as well (though most retailers/fitters will take payment when you have the saddle, and then arrange a refund).

Funnily enough I've had exactly the situation as cremedemonthe where the "better" saddle, copying an old saddle the pony loved, one of our own, made the pony veryun happy. Once I removed enough flock to you could almost feel the points :eek: the pony was happy. As cdm says, the horse's opinon is the most important one.

And in another recent case where it was really hard to be able to test the saddle out (a concrete yard and a bridlepath) I had to go back out with another saddle which DID work, the first was just moving too much, but I'd really not been able to check it properly on the first fitting.

Cross posted with Jen, edited to add - this is why it is very difficult to take to court. I think a customer taking something to court is more often than not the sign of failure on the part of the fitter, even if the fitter wins which they frequently do, so tough is it to prove a saddle never fitted. Proving it has done damage can be a little easier but it's still hard.
 
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I could try sending a picture and he may agree the panel is to shallow, its only just clearing the horses spine when viewed from behind.

No, the horse isnt high withered.

yes, the maker came out and took the measurements.

His attitude has been terrible and I have little faith in him being co-operative, he said I was being nasty and threatening because I sent him a letter that consumer direct had told me what to write in, it was neither nasty or threatening it just simply asked him to supply what I had paid for-a saddle that fitted.
 
Im having a problem too at the moment. To be fair the saddler has come out numerous times to adjust and has just swapped the made to measure saddle I originally bought for another none made to measure. Ive only ridden in it twice but can see it is moving forwards a little and due to its cost am scared Im going to have a load of trouble with this one too. Im at the point Ive had enough and thankfully have kept my old but well fitting saddle. My question is would I be due a full refund. Its nearly 12 mths now since the original template was taken but in this time the saddler has been out about 6 times and the saddle has probably spent 4 of these months at the shop being altered. I cant afford to accept 2nd hand money as a refund for a brand new saddle but I can appreciate the saddler will then be left with 2 technically second hand saddles.

When you say the saddler has never seen your saddle on your horse, do you mean he templated it and just gave it to you when it was made, presuming the fit was right???
If thats the case then I think that is really bad and surely you must have some come back. It isnt fit for purpose. If you templated then I dont think you have a leg to stand on Im afraid.
 
Angelz said:
I could try sending a picture and he may agree the panel is to shallow, its only just clearing the horses spine when viewed from behind.

No, the horse isnt high withered.

yes, the maker came out and took the measurements.

His attitude has been terrible and I have little faith in him being co-operative, he said I was being nasty and threatening because I sent him a letter that consumer direct had told me what to write in, it was neither nasty or threatening it just simply asked him to supply what I had paid for-a saddle that fitted.
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Sorry you answered my question before I posted.
Can I ask who it is please, pm me if you prefer.
 
Jen_Cots said:
It's a minefield. You would have to prove your horse hadn't changed shape - i.e. it did fit at one point and horse lost or gained weight

Then explaining to a judge why it doesn't fit would not be easy; as explaining to a lay person how saddles fit a horse will be a challenge

Finally you'd have you prove that even with pads and thick numnahs your saddle isn't fit for purpose
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I think this is the 'get out' clause, being able to say it is due to the horse changing shape and if it was due to that I would have no issue at all in paying for it to be adjusted BUT the 2nd opinion said he couldnt even adjust it to fit.

I dont know but would the depth of the panel be affected by the horse changing shape-I guess I need to know the answer to this question before I take it to court, the Master Saddler is willing to write a report for me, which is great but if the panel depth would be different due to a horse changing shape then its all pointless really and he will just say that my horse has changed shape thats why it no longer fits:(
 
I think timing is an issue too.
When did you first let him know it didnt fit? If its 3 mths later then he could say the horse has changed shape. If you have been fighting this since the start then thats different. I still think he should have come out to make sure the saddle fit in the first place.
 
Louby said:
Im having a problem too at the moment. To be fair the saddler has come out numerous times to adjust and has just swapped the made to measure saddle I originally bought for another none made to measure. Ive only ridden in it twice but can see it is moving forwards a little and due to its cost am scared Im going to have a load of trouble with this one too. Im at the point Ive had enough and thankfully have kept my old but well fitting saddle. My question is would I be due a full refund. Its nearly 12 mths now since the original template was taken but in this time the saddler has been out about 6 times and the saddle has probably spent 4 of these months at the shop being altered. I cant afford to accept 2nd hand money as a refund for a brand new saddle but I can appreciate the saddler will then be left with 2 technically second hand saddles.

When you say the saddler has never seen your saddle on your horse, do you mean he templated it and just gave it to you when it was made, presuming the fit was right???
If thats the case then I think that is really bad and surely you must have some come back. It isnt fit for purpose. If you templated then I dont think you have a leg to stand on Im afraid.
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Its a horrible feeling isnt it :-(

Yes, he templated it and dropped it off to my friend in a service station 6 weeks later
 
Louby said:
I think timing is an issue too.
When did you first let him know it didnt fit? If its 3 mths later then he could say the horse has changed shape. If you have been fighting this since the start then thats different. I still think he should have come out to make sure the saddle fit in the first place.
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No I let him know 3 months later because I just assumed it fitted with it being made to measure. I had my 1st riding lesson in it at the weekend-it was then that the riding instructor suggest I get someone to have a look at it as it wasnt right, so I did on Wednesday, there was a Master saddle fitter/maker at the yard, he checked 11 horses-some were fine, some had some flocking done-he got to mine, put it on my horses back and said 'shocking' I thought he was joking at first but he wasnt, he refused to touch it, advised me to get legal advice and said he would write a report for me if required as it was that bad! :-(
 
Poor you :(
After numerous attempts to put mine right, all ammicable though I took mine back to the shop and dropped it off. Id had enough and tbh didnt want to see it again. I felt my made to measure saddle was being made to fit. I could have bought a much cheaper one and achieved that. The saddler was being very fair with me though and I didnt worry about never seeing either another saddle or my money back. Im starting to worry a bit now though and I dread having to make the call that its not right. I feel really bad about it when really I shouldnt as its not my fault it doesnt fit.
Im not sure how you stand 3 mths on. I think the key is he should have seen it on the horse and he didnt. Mine checked the saddle on my horse and took it away on that day as it wasnt quite right. The rest is just an on going saga :(
I hope you get it sorted.
 
I certainly didn't pay for my M2M in advance, I paid when it was delivered and fitted. I also never paid for him to come out and reflock when it settled, nor did I pay to have some stitching done many years later.

I always had to ride when my saddle was checked and it was flocked on the premises and I rode again etc until he was happy.
 
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