Badminton Question

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Fanatical

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Ok, I am a complete die hard eventing fan and a big time Badminton geek so probably should know the answer to this question...but don't, so thought I'd ask on here.

The wait list.

It must be the most heartbreaking, demoralising thing ever to have a horse who is fit, sound, well and ready to perform at the biggest, most famous 4 star (ok 5 star - rolls eyes), in the world and end up not getting in off the wait list. Just to get a horse to this level and have them ready is a huge challenge in itself, so to then not be able to run at the event...urgh! :-( I am heartbroken for them all.

So, WHY does Badminton limit its starters?

Whilst in the past there have been a few more left on the wait list at the deadline than this year, there are never a huge number left. This year there are 6. Surely, over two days of dressage which invariably starts at 09.30am, and finishes between 16.30-17.00, they can fit 3 more in each day. XC day starts at 11.30am and finishes around 17.00 - again, surely they can start a little earlier/ finish a little later to accomodate another 6? And then the SJing is already split into two parts - surely by this point it isn't an issue between those that have withdrawn or not made it this far.

I completely understand the system which is used to put horses on the wait list (ie: number FEI points), its more why its necessary. Enlighten me folks please!
 
To be honest I’m not 100% sure. I wondering if it was an FEI directive on max number of starters, had a quick flick through rules and can’t see anything but may have missed it.

Either way, where do you draw the line if you don’t have a pre-defined number of starters?
One year you could squeeze in the final few off the waitlist. The next year you could have a longer waitlist, why couldn’t you just squeeze in 4-6 off that? How do you make the decision? Is it down to how well known the names missing out are 😜

No, as tough as it is, the system is there for a reason. Sad for those who miss out though.

ETA - it would also have an impact on the other 5*, particularly lehmehulen. There are only so many qualified combos. The more that are allowed to start Badminton, the less there are at Lehmeulen.
 
I get the issue around where do you draw the line, but as I said in my original post, there aren't normally that many more left than there are this year.

If anything, its the lesser names I feel sorry for, not the big names - I actually feel the opposite. I feel that each rider should have one horse accepted and then as and where there is room (subject to the wait list - if there must be one), second rides are accepted.

I accept there is a knock on effect to other events etc, but Badminton is the pinnacle and it is a shame - especially when Burghley doesn't limit their starters.
 
I thought it was the dressage that had to limit the numbers, in my mind the judges are only meant to judge a set maximum per day and once that was reached no more could be taken from the wait list.
 
Fanatical said:
I get the issue around where do you draw the line, but as I said in my original post, there aren't normally that many more left than there are this year.

If anything, its the lesser names I feel sorry for, not the big names - I actually feel the opposite. I feel that each rider should have one horse accepted and then as and where there is room (subject to the wait list - if there must be one), second rides are accepted.

I accept there is a knock on effect to other events etc, but Badminton is the pinnacle and it is a shame - especially when Burghley doesn't limit their starters.
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Are you sure Burghley doesn’t limit entries? I genuinely don’t know answer, but it could be that Burghley doesn’t receive quite the number of entries to start with hence the perception they accept all and don’t limit?

I strongly disagree with the accepting single entries over double entries. As lovely as it is to see those way down the wait list have a lovely run, they are down the waitlist because they are so low on FEI points they will never be competitive. As you say this is the pinnacle of the sport, we have to get the best horses there for both their owners and development of these horses for national teams.

BP might have a point on the dressage judges.
 
ihatework said:
Are you sure Burghley doesn’t limit entries? I genuinely don’t know answer, but it could be that Burghley doesn’t receive quite the number of entries to start with hence the perception they accept all and don’t limit?

I strongly disagree with the accepting single entries over double entries. As lovely as it is to see those way down the wait list have a lovely run, they are down the waitlist because they are so low on FEI points they will never be competitive. As you say this is the pinnacle of the sport, we have to get the best horses there for both their owners and development of these horses for national teams.

BP might have a point on the dressage judges.
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I am not 100% sure re Burghley but they don't hold a wait list like Badminton do - as you say, maybe they just don't attract the same volume of entries.

It is only my opinion and unlikely to happen (re accepting one horse per rider first)... and I do agree with you in part, as it is great to see the names and I accept its important for teams/ championships etc. I think it just pulls on my heart strings when people don't get in.

It is a fair point re the dressage judging and could well be a valid one.
 
Burghley only had 72 runners last year so I suspect by that stage of the season entries are a bit self limiting and it is less of an issue.
 
I never understand why some are allowed more than one entry and then some with only one ride are added to the wait list - I feel that is unfair.

Also, must be frustrating when say two don't get through the initial trot up and you're sat at home with a sound horse not able to go :(

I have no idea what the reasons are behind it, I'm sure there are some - but from an outsider POV, it comes across unfair.
 
alexomahony said:
I never understand why some are allowed more than one entry and then some with only one ride are added to the wait list - I feel that is unfair.

Also, must be frustrating when say two don't get through the initial trot up and you're sat at home with a sound horse not able to go :(

I have no idea what the reasons are behind it, I'm sure there are some - but from an outsider POV, it comes across unfair.
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It's to do with FEI points - there's a minimum qualfiication amount needed to be able to enter and those with more get preference.

You'll see from the wait list their number of points and it's in descending order.
 
Burghley always seems to clash with world/euro/olympic champs so many arent entered due to that.. They do seem a little more flexible than Badminton, allowing riders to run more horses, for example.
 
I would not do one run per rider either, it is the pinnacle of the sport and is justifiably allowing the best to go there.

What I would do is not close the wait list a week before. I think that after the one week deadline then riders should not be penalised if they turn down a late slot, but other riders may choose to travel to the event and prep, just in case of a trot-up disaster.
 
I should think every year there’s a very good chance you’ll get in off the wait list as aren’t there always 1 or 2 that get spun or don’t represent at the first trot up? Gutted for the 2 who didn’t pass this time and they were both 1st timers too I think. So disappointing get that far.

We’re off to have a mooch around today and catch some of the dressage.
 
Bernster said:
I should think every year there’s a very good chance you’ll get in off the wait list as aren’t there always 1 or 2 that get spun or don’t represent at the first trot up? Gutted for the 2 who didn’t pass this time and they were both 1st timers too I think. So disappointing get that far.

We’re off to have a mooch around today and catch some of the dressage.
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This doesn't happen - the last time for horses to be accepted off the wait-list is 2pm on the Sunday preceding the event, so horses that do not pass the first horse inspection are not replaced.

The schedule allows for 85 entries, any further entries beyond this number are wait-listed in descending order of FEI points. This is the same number of entries accepted as for Burghley. Double entries are accepted for both events. The only difference in the two is that Badminton's own entry rules (not the FEI rules) only allow 2 horses per rider. At the other 5*s there is no limit.
 
I have another question.. completely different to OP's and I hope you don't mind!

Harry Meades horse was withdrawn as the mare had a 'routine injection' which caused such a stiff neck, she was unable to graze after he dressage test so they withdrew.

The articles explains she had a cartrofen injection before the event and reacted badly to the needle.

Apparently this is very common in horses competing at this level and completely normal.

Am I wrong in knowing cartrofen is a pain killer, so some of these horses running Badminton, are on pain killers and its legal? I had no ideal this was 'normal' as this article is saying?!

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/badminton-2019-harry-meade-686266
 
Cartrophen isn’t a pain killer, it’s effectively an injectable joint supplement. So if the horse has mild joint issues (which at this level is common) the use of Cartrophen on the assumption it helps could help to manage mild joint pain. But we are talking fine margins here.

It’s completely legal and very routine in elite sport.
 
I compete in FEI events and my horse has preventative Cartrophen injections and yes it is legal. It's not a pain killer though maybe that's where you are confused.
 
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ihatework said:
Cartrophen isn’t a pain killer, it’s effectively an injectable joint supplement. So if the horse has mild joint issues (which at this level is common) the use of Cartrophen on the assumption it helps could help to manage mild joint pain. But we are talking fine margins here.

It’s completely legal and very routine in elite sport.
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I really had no idea until I read Harry's fb post last week that this was routine...

Fiona
 
Fiona said:
I really had no idea until I read Harry's fb post last week that this was routine...

Fiona
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You wouldn’t be alone, I was naive to it until I was in a position to observe top level horse management.

The attention to detail that goes into these athletes (which is what they are) is quite staggering.

ETA: and something I don’t feel is discussed openly enough so kudos to Harry.
 
ihatework said:
You wouldn’t be alone, I was naive to it until I was in a position to observe top level horse management.

The attention to detail that goes into these athletes (which is what they are) is quite staggering.

ETA: and something I don’t feel is discussed openly enough so kudos to Harry.
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Yes presumably it's not discussed, hence Harry's fb post being somewhat of a revelation.....

Good on him...

Fiona
 
Funny I mentioned it to my vet this morning and he was surprised that they did it so close to the competition, since every injection can potentially have small side effects, but agreed that it is perfectly commonplace.
 
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