BAH - new mare is ''kicky''...help!

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atot

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We came back from a lovely, albeit wet hack, and when it came to picking out my mare's feet, again, she was stroppy about it. Front feet are okay, she's not particularly helpful, but she is awful with her back legs - This is her only downfall, but its a big one and I want her to lose the habit ASAP!

She knows I'm there, she knows I'm going to pick out her back legs, she snatches her back leg up and a few times has actually kicked out. Its awful, and I'm not sure what to do.

She is such a nice horse with a terribly sweet nature, so I can't think what the matter is. I doubt its pain - Its the same with both back legs, and once she's given in I can fiddle around with them and she's pretty patient, its just getting there thats the problem.
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When she has lifted her leg for me I have an "apple dispenser" helper at the other end, and she gets lots of pats, but I'm going to be on my own a lot of the time.

She gets a sharp NO if she misbehaves, but I'm not sure if this is enough.
She's a really genuine, honest horse but her manners here are awful. In all other respects she is lovely to handle.

Any ideas MUCH appreciated.
 
Once pain has been ruled out I would suggest a hearty elbow in the ribs instead of a verbal 'no' may be more succesful (*nips off to put on bulletproof vest*) as, IMO, it sounds like a respect issue that has probably become a habit over time- you need to set out who is boss (although be just as quick with the praise when she stands quietly!)
 
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D'you know much about her background? Any possibility she might've had a traumatic experience?

I second ruling out pain.
 
I don't know her background, but I know she had it tough, hunting hard from the age of 3 in Ireland. She looked sodding awful when she came over from Ireland 10 wks ago. So it is highly possible but I just have the feeling she is slightly taking the piss....
 
Definetly need to rule out the pain, my mare never used to do it, but has now been diagnosed with a strained sacrialliac, she was kicking out when we lifted her back legs and was really snatchy, i would get her checked Either pysio, if they find anything then then the vet can be called, or just call vet straight out definetly worth getting her checked though, otherwise, as above bad exsperiance, hope you work it out
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She passed a 5* vetting two weeks ago, and she's been doing it since the day she arrived. Also I can hold the leg up once I've got it - she doesn't do anything when I've got a proper hold on it, hence why I assumed it wasn't physical.
 
I think you need the vet out to recommend a physio rather than directly going to a physio. I must say, even if she passed the 5* two weeks ago, you still think its necessary? I know I'd rather be safe an sorry, but its only been a fortnight since she's had the all over.
 
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She passed a 5* vetting two weeks ago, and she's been doing it since the day she arrived. Also I can hold the leg up once I've got it - she doesn't do anything when I've got a proper hold on it, hence why I assumed it wasn't physical.

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Did the vet mention anything about her trying to kick when she was flexion tested?? I'm sure he would have if she did - so I'd guess she is just a bit undisciplined. This is the sort of horse the leg rope is VERY helpful for. Just pass a soft lead rope around the pastern - holding both ends - and use THAT to pick her leg up. It enables you to 'keep hold' much more easily and puts you further out of kicking range. She'll soon learn there is no escape!

Obviously when she LETS you pick the foot up easily, don't hold it to high or too long - lower it gently and praise her. IGNORE any attempts to put it down, wave it around etc. - you'll just MAKE it an issue. Just use the rope to PREVENT her doing it and praise her when she's good.
 
It may be historic, in other words the memory of an injury in the past.

My OH's mare has had some problems this summer with her back legs and as a result has become a complete PIA to pick out her back feet, your description is very similar to the fun and games we are currently working through. Our mare is 16 and my OH has had her 9 years and never had the slightest trouble in the past and we are sure that she is fully recovered, but obviously there is still a strong memory of pain which we will have to work through.
 
Get her used to you touching the legs without necessarily picking them up. If she's ok with you handling her upper legs then take time brushing them, running your hand over then give her a pat and do something else.

Gradually move further down her leg each time you do this, so long as she's happy each time, making sure you don't try to pick her feet out each time you touch the back legs. Over time, you should be able to move all the way down her leg without issue.

Every time you can touch her legs without her fidgeting or kicking, praise her then do something else, and each time she kicks out then smack her at the same time as saying 'NO', as you have been doing. Depending on her attitude, she might end up responding to just a voice command, or she might need the smack too.
 
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I think you need the vet out to recommend a physio rather than directly going to a physio. I must say, even if she passed the 5* two weeks ago, you still think its necessary? I know I'd rather be safe an sorry, but its only been a fortnight since she's had the all over.

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Vettings will only test particular things (eyes, heart, respiration etc) so a sore back or stiff hocks (or plenty of other things that might be causing the problem) wouldn't necessarily have been picked up... I would get a chiropractor / physiotherapist out just to confirm there isn't anything wrong
 
We got Ellie as a 5 year old, and although we knew she had been through a pretty dodgy dealer's yard, we knew very little else about her history. She was quite timid but didnt have the best of manners in the stable- she kicked me in the head the first day after we bought her - all I was doing was fastening her surcingle on her rug. She was very 'kicky' in general, and it was obviously something I wanted to nip in the bud. I took to carrying a small whip in my boot, and if she kicked out at me, she got a flick across the hocks. Rightly or wrongly, it worked! And it only took about a week and a half before she didnt even think of lashing out.
And before anyone says how cruel I must have been, I'd invite you to come and visit my horse and see how terrified of me she is
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Vettings will only test particular things (eyes, heart, respiration etc) so a sore back or stiff hocks (or plenty of other things that might be causing the problem) wouldn't necessarily have been picked up... I would get a chiropractor / physiotherapist out just to confirm there isn't anything wrong

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How would a chiro or physio be in a better position to diagnose a problem than a vet??

If the issue cannot be resolved from correct handling, then perhaps the issue is pain. But given that the recent 5* vetting would've included flexion tests, then it's more likely to be the mare's handling and manners rather than a physical problem.

Chiros and physios are extremely useful in treating problems detected by vets, but they should not be relied upon as diagnosticians.
 
Nope she didn't. She said she passed with flying colours and that she would've taken her off my hands happily! I am going to ring her tomorrow for a chat though, see what her thoughts are.

Good idea about the lead rope - gives me that bit more confidence too - I keep jumping to the side when she lifts her leg up, as I don't know whether she is going to snatch it up or kick out.

Yep she's been getting lots of praise when she's done it right, and I had a good fiddle round before putting it down and she was alright.

Will also lunge her tomorrow and run the lunge whip down the back of her legs just to get her used to the sensation of a hand going down her legs.

thanks for your help - will keep you updated.
 
I hope your mare gets through it soon, NeilM. I understand it may take time, and the grooms are being great and just persisting till they've done all four legs, so hopefully she will soon learn.
 
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How would a chiro or physio be in a better position to diagnose a problem than a vet??

If the issue cannot be resolved from correct handling, then perhaps the issue is pain. But given that the recent 5* vetting would've included flexion tests, then it's more likely to be the mare's handling and manners rather than a physical problem.

Chiros and physios are extremely useful in treating problems detected by vets, but they should not be relied upon as diagnosticians.

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I wasn't suggesting they would be better qualified or in a 'better position' than a vet in all situations
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I recommeneded using them because they specialise in areas not covered in a 5* vetting (with the exception of flexion tests) so may pick something up that the vet didn't. Why call out the vet just for a referral to a physio? Surely that recommendation can be made by the vet over the phone, as the horse was only seen two weeks ago??
 
The best way to deal with a horse that lashes out or mis behaves having feet picked up is, get a long stick and place an old glove on the end, replicating your hand. you are then a distance away so you out of kicking range. Rub all over up and down, a walking stick is better with a curve( cover the curved end with padding) you can then hook the leg a safe distance away again without getting kicked. Agree with above to rule out pain first though. Have used this method for over 30 years and have always had very good results.
 
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I wasn't suggesting they would be better qualified or in a 'better position' than a vet in all situations
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I recommeneded using them because they specialise in areas not covered in a 5* vetting (with the exception of flexion tests) so may pick something up that the vet didn't. Why call out the vet just for a referral to a physio? Surely that recommendation can be made by the vet over the phone, as the horse was only seen two weeks ago??

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But you did suggest them in this situation, and I'm unsure why? If there's an unknown physical problem which may be causing the problem, why get a chiro or physio out, when a diagnosis is needed?

If the vet thought there was a problem that another practitioner was needed for, then this would have been picked upon at the vetting.

Given that nothing was mentioned in the vetting that could be related to the current problem, why recommend chiro/physio?

So much damage can be done by skipping to treatment before having a diagnosis made. Any reputable practitioner would refer back to a vet if they detected a problem, but that situation would be prevented if owners were honest with their vets about the reasons for wanting a referral in the first place.

Ultimately, the first port of call if a physical problem is suspected, that can't clearly be related to poor shoeing or tack etc, should be a vet.
 
My mare was a real sweety...and a complete plod when we went to see her. She came to me and was still sweet but with a few tricks to test me out. We've still not got back to the plod I viewed
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but the ground issues have been sorted.
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I'm not saying don't get her checked out if you want to but they do like to test their new owners. Mine wouldn't do feet, bit in mouth or rugged up without some trick - pulling hooves away, trying to lift leg to kick (with picking hooves and rugging) and biting. Just picking hooves more times than neccessary, rewarding and punishing as appropriate and (dare I say it?) parelli ground work for respect...not balls or pedastals, and definitely not wacking round the face with an orange stick (where do these ideas come from??). With time, patience and consistent handling you'll get there - I could have happily let mine loose on the moors the first 9 months
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Ditto the rope and the glove stick. Dizz used to be damn rude about her hind feet - I hung on, working on the basis that if the swinging around made me lose my grip, I'd be pushed away rather than actually kicked
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. She got the hang of it pretty quickly
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, now if she has the odd moment she gets a good No! and a sharp poke in whatever bit of her is nearest
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If this is a new problem then I totally agree with you Megan; however from the wording of the OP I assume it is a problem that has existed ever since she bought her (and as such since the vetting) Can you confirm OP??

I recommended the use of the physio/chiro because, in a horse that has hunted hard since it was 3 and is unlikely to have seen a chiro before, this is "probably" the root of the kicking problem... and (irrespective of whether or not it is the cause of this problem) being seen by a chiro certainly won't do her any harm.

Granted if the chiro can't find any problems relating to her kicking I would refer back to the vet, and the OP may wish to refer the mare to them in the first instance too (that is a personal preference)

I was simply putting across my personal opinion that, from the information given, this mares kicking habit is either likely to be a naughty habit or a symptom of a musculo-skeletal problem that is best tackled by the forementioned chiro/physio- at no point did I say she should 'not bother' with the vet

OP- srry for hijacking
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if she has no problem physcially picking it up, lets face it, she's just being terribly awkward and disrespectful!...keep close to her side, pick it up and try and hold on to it as long as it takes for her to settle then drop and repeat, be prepared to be there for hours if so, but its got to be done and it will pay off...if she kicks out, then give her the 'No' and a good poke in the ribs, 'stand!' and repeat again..she'l know u mean business and arn't there to f*ck about...
 
I'm afraid I have had plenty of dealings with vets who do not think there is anything wrong (and there has been) and a good physio can often tell whether something is a simple muscular problem or a deep-seated one which needs scans. My physio (who works closely with local vets) knows the difference and will not touch anything dodgy until it has seen a vet. Its unlikely a vet will diagnose anything re back or SI without expensive scans. My friends cob passed a 5 stager and it has since been diagnosed with SI problems and has always had the same snatchy leg symptoms. My horse too has diagnosed SI injury but has never been particularly snatchy legged. I would go down the behaviour route a little way before trying to open that can of worms. Hope it sorts its self out
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ali_m thank you for your ideas. She has indeed done this since she arrived (last monday, so really not that many times as of yet...)

I think, I may be wrong, but I think its illegal to actually get a physio/chiro out without a veterinary referral, so I would have to do that first.

If it is musculo-skeletal as you suggested, I doubt she would be happy being ridden, which she is. She shows no discomfort when ridden and offers me a lot in terms of flexion, so I just can't see it being muscular or skeletal.
She would also be in more pain once the hoof was lifted and being dealt with - yet she is fine when I've got it in my hand, hence why I personally think it is behavioural, and will treat it as that unless there is no improvement.

thanks though ali_m - as I said, any ideas welcomed and I appreciate what you've said
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Ditto the rope and the glove stick. Dizz used to be damn rude about her hind feet - I hung on, working on the basis that if the swinging around made me lose my grip, I'd be pushed away rather than actually kicked
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. She got the hang of it pretty quickly
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, now if she has the odd moment she gets a good No! and a sharp poke in whatever bit of her is nearest
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I can't hang on MM - I've tried, but nearly ended up being swung round into the line of fire. So I just step back, *deep breath*, and try, try and try again
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I'm afraid I have had plenty of dealings with vets who do not think there is anything wrong (and there has been) and a good physio can often tell whether something is a simple muscular problem or a deep-seated one which needs scans. My physio (who works closely with local vets) knows the difference and will not touch anything dodgy until it has seen a vet. Its unlikely a vet will diagnose anything re back or SI without expensive scans. My friends cob passed a 5 stager and it has since been diagnosed with SI problems and has always had the same snatchy leg symptoms. My horse too has diagnosed SI injury but has never been particularly snatchy legged. I would go down the behaviour route a little way before trying to open that can of worms. Hope it sorts its self out
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sussexbythesea that is my plan of aciton - treat it as behavioural unless there is no improvement. I am speaking to the vet tomorrow, to see what she thinks, and we'll go from there. I do have reasons though for not believing it is physical, I'm not just doing it to save money!
: She is happy being ridden, no sign of discomfort and as I said to someone else, she offers flexion etc and seems happy with her work.
: Once I've got hold of the leg as she's got bored of being a pain, she is fine with me holding it - I would've thought this would have caused more discomfort than just running my hand down her leg, yet she reacts to this not to the actual holding of the leg, hence why I don't think she's in any pain.

I will however be in touch with the vet, and I will keep you all updated with a post if anyone is interested. I hope it is sorted soon. She is a really decent mare and I am positive this is just a bilp that can be ironed out with some patience and discipline.
 
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Sounds like she's unsure of you and visa verse. When going to pick up back feet stay close to her belly and ask quietly to up when you run your hand down her leg.

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She does seem to focus on me a little too much when I'm near her back end. She's certainly not too happy with me fiddling with any of her legs, but she can certainly tell me more with the back legs! I've been doing exactly what you've described. I have been running my hand down her leg quite hard so she knows what I'm asking of her and that I'm not just tickling. II'm not unsure of her though. When her back legs fly out though yep, I'll admit I move pretty fast, but I'm straight back in there trying to have another go. It's taken us about 5 or 6 times for each leg each time I try, but we'll see how it goes though, I've got the patience to stick it out, and thanks to all the suggestions hopefully we'll see an improvement soon.
thanks johnrobert.
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