Ban all hunts

[Thriller]

http://m.westernmorningnews.co.uk/L...s-like-close/story-26034313-detail/story.html

Lacs want all hunts closed. Views?

 

[millikins]

Having had 10 years to "prove" hunts are acting illegally and failed, I suspect they are now hoping we will have a weak Labour Government after the election to further their cause.

 

[Alec Swan]

Were the lacs to have addressed their appalling management of the deer at Baronsdown Wood, where through the gross neglect of their 'rescued' creatures (though in reality, illegally trapped), sponsored by those with no care for wildlife nor an acceptable level of knowledge, then they may be taken seriously. The lacs are a collection of clowns, as I've just advised them.

Alec.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

I don't doubt that the LACS have a point though in regards to many hunts circumventing the law. The law is for everyone to uphold, and the hunts that do not think this law does applies to them just harms the cause for hunting within the law. Hunts that do that just polarise the argument and this jcreates problems all round.

Alec some of your points on here are helpful, but I do wish you wouldn't get into mud slinging and insults - the LACS might not be perfect but they do provide a very needed function - they do not deserve to be called clowns, and insulted etc. as per your post. I'm aware that you are probably trying to be divisive but it just weakens your argument - and I am not sure what that is ?

On second thoughts don't tell me - I would take a 2/9 on that it will be the following - hunting is great and should continue whatever as its good for foxes, the countryside and happiness, global warming , imports / exports, oh and the foxes actually like it too ...I could go on .... and everyone who opposes hunting ( and I draw a line here between illegal hunting and hunting within the law) is a complete idiot who doesn't know what they are talking about, has no experience of the countryside, lives in the city, ad infinitum.......

 

[Smurf's Gran]

duplicate

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Having had 10 years to "prove" hunts are acting illegally and failed, I suspect they are now hoping we will have a weak Labour Government after the election to further their cause.

Millikins - do you hunt and what are your experiences ? would be interested to know if you have first hand experience and what this indicates ?
From Lacs website it seems that there is plenty of illegal stuff going on in terms of hunting, but that it is hard to get a conviction as intent is hard to prove, and it also relies on someone videoing the evidence as it were, and this would require luck or very skilled timing to actually catch an illegal act, but as I'm sure all hunts are different ? it would be good to get some info

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

People break the law every day, driving over the speed limit, so should we all be banned from driving?

 

[millikins]

Millikins - do you hunt and what are your experiences ? would be interested to know if you have first hand experience and what this indicates ?
From Lacs website it seems that there is plenty of illegal stuff going on in terms of hunting, but that it is hard to get a conviction as intent is hard to prove, and it also relies on someone videoing the evidence as it were, and this would require luck or very skilled timing to actually catch an illegal act, but as I'm sure all hunts are different ? it would be good to get some info

It's not likely the LACS website would say otherwise, equally if you view any pro hunting sites they will reassure you that no illegal hunting takes place, neither view is un biased. The hunts do not have to prove a negative, and LACS and the RSPCA have had 10 years to produce evidence that will stand up in court and have largely failed to do so, which could be the difficulty of finding it, though multiple horses galloping across open fields with a pack of baying dogs whilst blowing a horn is hardly secretive, or it could be that there is no evidence to find.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Of course not, but people do get fined, and get points on the license etc. for breaking the law in their car. If people break the law and hunt illegally it should be the same - but I think its much harder to prove and that is the issue - if hunts would just stay within the law then there wouldn't be an issue.

It would ne really good to have some very honest opinions on here from people who hunt re the illegal / legal side of things

 

[Smurf's Gran]

It's not likely the LACS website would say otherwise, equally if you view any pro hunting sites they will reassure you that no illegal hunting takes place, neither view is un biased. The hunts do not have to prove a negative, and LACS and the RSPCA have had 10 years to produce evidence that will stand up in court and have largely failed to do so, which could be the difficulty of finding it, though multiple horses galloping across open fields with a pack of baying dogs whilst blowing a horn is hardly secretive, or it could be that there is no evidence to find.

I think they have produced some though, and while a hunt "in action" is very hard to miss, I think its probably very difficult to get the precise evidence you need - which would be the actual kill, with evidenc of the huntsmen willing the hounds on ? - specially hard if you are on foot - its probably hard enough to witness the kill even if you are riding with the hunt.

Do you have an personal experience you could share ?

I know in our areas since the Hunting Act came into force many more people hunt who maybe wouldn't have before, though some say their hunt is strictly legal, and others say that the hunting act changed nothing ??

Just to add, terrier men secretly placing foxes might also be hard to prove / find. Digging out foxes also hard to prove as there would be no pack of baying hounds - though this would still be illegal

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

But a lot of people have always considered the Laws on Hunting to be an ill considered piece of legislation. Whether or not this is true, most people think it was a piece of political manoevering.
I have heard people [those who have no countryside understanding or interest] saying things like "people in red coats chasing foxes" that is why hunting should be banned, its not that they think its cruel, its because someone else says so, its some sort of left wing idea.
What is being suggested is not that those who break the law should be punished, but that everyone should be punished, they got the law on hunting through parliament, if the police can't "police it", or have other things to do, then I can understand the antis being annoyed, but its ridiculous to think that the law will be changed.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Millikins - do you hunt and what are your experiences ? would be interested to know if you have first hand experience and what this indicates ?
From Lacs website it seems that there is plenty of illegal stuff going on in terms of hunting, but that it is hard to get a conviction as intent is hard to prove, and it also relies on someone videoing the evidence as it were, and this would require luck or very skilled timing to actually catch an illegal act, but as I'm sure all hunts are different ? it would be good to get some info

Sorry S G but you sound very like Tom..whatever on Countryfile ......... "tell us your stories of illegal hunting" I don't know if many hunt followers are 100% clued up on the legalities, and even if they are, if they would actually be in a position to witness such.
As for looking at these activist websites, well I have other things to do with my life.
"Willing the hounds on" .......... its a weird thing to say .........

 

[Maesfen]

Alec's spot on about the deer on their 'sanctuary', it is a criminal disgrace that deer are made to suffer so much, so yes, clowns fit the bill very well as nobody but an idiot would agree the conditions there are good for any animal which by nature is a free roamer.
It has always been a class war and nothing else, the animal welfare has no relevance when you add their intimidation, calling hounds across busy roads to be hit by traffic and causing accidents to others, spraying them in their faces and so on; that's just the tip of the iceberg so animal lovers they certainly are not and anyone who thinks they are need their heads seriously looked at.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Sorry S G but you sound very like Tom..whatever on Countryfile ......... "tell us your stories of illegal hunting" I don't know if many hunt followers are 100% clued up on the legalities, and even if they are, if they would actually be in a position to witness such.
As for looking at these activist websites, well I have other things to do with my life.
"Willing the hounds on" .......... its a weird thing to say .........

Actually Bonkers I do agree with a lot of what you say, ( though not the left wing thing that's just an argument put forward by the Countryside Alliance which I think has no basis in fact) but unfortunately due to the partisan views on here, its impossible to get past petty bickering as to who is right - if there could be an adult debate that would be great.
As for Lacs asking for all hunting to be banned. I doubt this would happen, but it is worth bearing in mind that this is being requested because of hunts who do hunt illegally - in my view they are spoiling this for others who want to hunt legally.

As for my comments being weird, you are of course entitled to your views but there is nothing weirder ( grammar ) than the aim of a sport being ripping an animal apart.

As for looking at activists websites - information is always good, and if you have an opposing view its always good to know what the other camp are saying?? you never know they may have a point some of the time.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Alec's spot on about the deer on their 'sanctuary', it is a criminal disgrace that deer are made to suffer so much, so yes, clowns fit the bill very well as nobody but an idiot would agree the conditions there are good for any animal which by nature is a free roamer.
It has always been a class war and nothing else, the animal welfare has no relevance when you add their intimidation, calling hounds across busy roads to be hit by traffic and causing accidents to others, spraying them in their faces and so on; that's just the tip of the iceberg so animal lovers they certainly are not and anyone who thinks they are need their heads seriously looked at.

Are you sure that's not the tactics of Animal Aid you are referring to ? I thought that they had largely disbanded now, and LACS are more credible

I would ask though if you can give more information on some of your allegations, as a point of interest, and debate.

Do you have any photos of the deer at the sanctuary ( and address?)

Thanks

 

[Fellewell]

Millikins - do you hunt and what are your experiences ? would be interested to know if you have first hand experience and what this indicates ?

Why should she/he?

I know in our areas since the Hunting Act came into force many more people hunt who maybe wouldn't have before, though some say their hunt is strictly legal, and others say that the hunting act changed nothing

Especially when you appear to know already.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Millikins - do you hunt and what are your experiences ? would be interested to know if you have first hand experience and what this indicates ?

Why should she/he?

I know in our areas since the Hunting Act came into force many more people hunt who maybe wouldn't have before, though some say their hunt is strictly legal, and others say that the hunting act changed nothing

Especially when you appear to know already.

The reason I'm asking for information is so we can have some sort of informed debate, and as Millikins has posted on here with info about hunting, and implications that illegal hunting does not really happen, I'm interested in his / her views - and as I'm sure you are aware views based on first hand experience (assuming they are honest) are more informative (and credible) than just repeating hearsay (which I am not saying she is doing).

As for me knowing what is going on - if you read my post again you can see that I have said that this applies to my area and am asking for information as to what goes on elsewhere for information puroses.

What is wrong with that ?? and what is your point ?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Actually Bonkers I do agree with a lot of what you say, ( though not the left wing thing that's just an argument put forward by the Countryside Alliance which I think has no basis in fact) but unfortunately due to the partisan views on here, its impossible to get past petty bickering as to who is right - if there could be an adult debate that would be great.
As for Lacs asking for all hunting to be banned. I doubt this would happen, but it is worth bearing in mind that this is being requested because of hunts who do hunt illegally - in my view they are spoiling this for others who want to hunt legally.

As for my comments being weird, you are of course entitled to your views but there is nothing weirder ( grammar ) than the aim of a sport being ripping an animal apart.

As for looking at activists websites - information is always good, and if you have an opposing view its always good to know what the other camp are saying?? you never know they may have a point some of the time.

I wondered how long it would be , before ......."being ripped apart" would appear. I just ate a cottage pie ......... I know that the poor thing was "put in a mincer and chopped into tiny pieces then heated to over 100 degrees centigrade" As long as I continue to eat meat, I have to accept this is the fate of the animal.

The aim of the sport is not to rip a fox apart.

I like to see foxes in the countryside, it would be a sad day when there were none.

Your phrase "willing the hounds on" is weird because it is not one any country person or knowledgeable hunt follower would use. It is more the sort of thing one expects to hear in regards to illegal pit bull dog fighting and bear baiting.

 

[Fellewell]

The reason I'm asking for information is so we can have some sort of informed debate, and as Millikins has posted on here with info about hunting, and implications that illegal hunting does not really happen, I'm interested in her views - and as I'm sure you are aware views based on first hand experience are more informative (and credible) than just repeating hearsay.

As for me knowing what is going on - if you read my post again you can see that I have said that this applies to my area and am asking for information as to what goes on.

What is wrong with that ??

There are programmes on TV practically every night showing animals in their natural habitat 'ripping each other apart'. It's known as predator/prey behaviour and hounds are no different. Hunting within the law is not hunting IMO. Hunting was an effective means of animal husbandry. Hunting is not a 'cruel sport' either and should not be categorised as such.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

I wondered how long it would be , before ......."being ripped apart" would appear. I just ate a cottage pie ......... I know that the poor thing was "put in a mincer and chopped into tiny pieces then heated to over 100 degrees centigrade" as long as I continue to eat meat, I have to accept this is the fate of the animal.
The aim of the sport is not to rip a fox apart.
I like to see foxes in the countryside, it would be a sad day when there were none.
Your phrase "willing the hounds on" is weird because it is not one any country person or knowledgeable hunt follower would use.

What would the terminology be for encouraging the hounds to give chase and follow the fox then ? (did my phraseology explain what I had meant)

Also I'm interested to know what the aim of the sport is ? (if not to kill a fox)

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

What would the terminology be for encouraging the hounds to give chase and follow the fox then ? (did my phraseology explain what I had meant)

Also I'm interested to know what the aim of the sport is ? (if not to kill a fox)

I think we have answered your questions and frankly I don't like people who pretend they are open minded, when that is exactly what they are not.

 

[A1fie]

The 'aim' for me going hunting is to watch hounds work - by that I mean watching them go in to a covert and try to pick up the scent of a trail and then see them run when they pick it up. It is beautiful to watch and it is beautiful to listen to them speak. It is wonderful to watch the hounds grow each season, to begin to identify their personality. It is like 101 dalmations - each hound has it's own character, be that naughty, brave, adventurous, shy etc.

I also love being on a horse in the country. It is wonderful watching the sun rise or fall, galloping over headlands, through woods, over ditches and hedges, through villages and up hills.

I hunt because I love wildlife including foxes. I am an animal lover, which you may find hard to believe. There is no joy in watching a fox being torn apart, but as a method of control, I believe it is fairer than shooting, trapping or leaving it to die slowly of disease or starvation. No fox dies without suffering naturally.

I hope that answers your question a bit, Smurf's gran

 

[Smurf's Gran]

There are programmes on TV practically every night showing animals in their natural habitat 'ripping each other apart'. It's known as predator/prey behaviour and hounds are no different. Hunting within the law is not hunting IMO. Hunting was an effective means of animal husbandry. Hunting is not a 'cruel sport' either and should not be categorised as such.

Felliwell you can probably guess that I do not agree with your views , and that is fine as we are both entitled to opposing view points. But you comment on one of my posts and have a bit of a go actually, then when I reply with an explanation you refuse to acknowledge this, you then quote me, missing off part of my comment which is relevant ??

 

[jrp204]

Do you have any photos of the deer at the sanctuary ( and address?)

Thanks[/QUOTE]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...y-accused-of-hypocrisy-over-deer-culling.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ed-of-starving-deer-on-its-own-sanctuary.html

 

[Smurf's Gran]

I think we have answered your questions and frankly I don't like people who pretend they are open minded, when that is exactly what they are not.

mmmm bit of a cop out there ???

I would actually be interested in your views as to the aim of the sport, and whether I agree or not is not relevant tbh.

 

[Fellewell]

Felliwell you can probably guess that I do not agree with your views , and that is fine as we are both entitled to opposing view points. But you comment on one of my posts and have a bit of a go actually, then when I reply with an explanation you refuse to acknowledge this, you then quote me, missing off part of my comment which is relevant ??

Do you want to identify people who do not 'hunt' within the law or simply congratulate those who do?

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Do you have any photos of the deer at the sanctuary ( and address?)

Thanks

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...y-accused-of-hypocrisy-over-deer-culling.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ed-of-starving-deer-on-its-own-sanctuary.html[/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting the link JRP204, that's quite shocking.

I see the articles were 2002 and 2004. Does anyone have anything up to date on what happened next, if there was any action, and how things are now?

Thanks

Thanks

 

[Smurf's Gran]

The 'aim' for me going hunting is to watch hounds work - by that I mean watching them go in to a covert and try to pick up the scent of a trail and then see them run when they pick it up. It is beautiful to watch and it is beautiful to listen to them speak. It is wonderful to watch the hounds grow each season, to begin to identify their personality. It is like 101 dalmations - each hound has it's own character, be that naughty, brave, adventurous, shy etc.

I also love being on a horse in the country. It is wonderful watching the sun rise or fall, galloping over headlands, through woods, over ditches and hedges, through villages and up hills.

I hunt because I love wildlife including foxes. I am an animal lover, which you may find hard to believe. There is no joy in watching a fox being torn apart, but as a method of control, I believe it is fairer than shooting, trapping or leaving it to die slowly of disease or starvation. No fox dies without suffering naturally.

I hope that answers your question a bit, Smurf's gran

Thanks for your very honest opinion, you can probably guess that I am against, but very useful to have some information that can be understood.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

http://www.countryside-alliance.org/ca/file/Hunting_for_Kids.pdf
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_hunting#United_Kingdom

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Do you want to identify people who do not 'hunt' within the law or simply congratulate those who do?

Neither, I would like to engage in debate in an honest and open way.