Bare foot dilema

[eahotson]

The spooky one came to me bare foot.Had feet like granite and no reason to change. Went to bare foot trimmer when it was pointed out to me,rightly, that current farrier was only doing a paddock trim and not a good one at that.Newbie is chestnut, with 4 large white socks, white feet (badly trimmed when purchased, vet and instructor!).Went back to bare foot trimmer as he only had fronts on anyway.Everything fine until a couple of days ago when he became foot sore hacking out.Trimmer thinks rain, take back a couple of days then lead on tarmac for a week. I don't know whether to do that or revert to farrier as this is a new yard and they seem to have quite decent farriers there.Indecisive as ever. Any advice?

 

[Flame_]

Farrier, those trimmers talk a lot but some of the actual jobs they do on the feet are terrible. Ask around before you pick a farrier, the odd one isn't much better than a trimmer, LOL. Generally speaking those you can trust most farriers to do whatever is best for the horse, and if you're careful to pick an approachable one they'll explain why they trim or shoe a particular way.

 

[eahotson]

Thanks. Will sort tomorrow.Do know now though that some farriers really are poor.

 

[spookypony]

[ QUOTE ]
Farrier, those trimmers talk a lot but some of the actual jobs they do on the feet are terrible. Ask around before you pick a farrier, the odd one isn't much better than a trimmer, LOL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, just like any other job, there are trimmers out there that do know what they are doing, and that do have proper training. How did you find your trimmer? Does he or she have training, and come recommended by other people? Since the profession is unregulated at the moment, recommendations are your best bet to finding a good one.

 

[Willza]

I guess it depends on the approach you want for your horse. The barefoot route is a holistic one where some knowledge of the natural hoof and its environment is needed to appreciate why it reacts in the way it does. If you can find the time or the environment to cater for this approach there's a lot of evidence to suggest (ie Farriery and scientific journals) that its more healthy for the horse.
If you can't find time or resources to replicate the correct environment to induce natural hoof growth though you may be better off with shoeing.

 

[Chestnuttymare]

What do you mean by 'correct envirnment' Willza?

Pirani, ask around and get a farrier that comes recommended. Like any profession, there are some better than others. I wouldn't go down the barefoot trimmer route. Some have only a few weeks of training. As it is not regulated, they could be doing it with a weeks course behind them. Just my opinion, but i wouldn't go near them. Was it a trimmer who commented on the 'paddock trim'?

My farrier trims my barefoot one when he is doing my mares shoes and his feet are beautiful and he goes over stony ground without a problem. They were a horrible mess when I got him 6 years ago and my farrier has got them looking fab.

 

[CrazyMare]

My unshod one is trimmed by my farrier when he does my mares shoes. Unshod one has feet like rock, and is sound on any surface, she happily boings around over stones etc.

My farrier has my complete trust.

 

[UKa]

Dunno. personally I would go down the route of using a farrier... have had barefoot horses for a large part of my life and back in the old days (makes me sound really old

) it was never anyone else doing their feet than a farrier...my current horse came to me unshod and went fine a few years like that. Then we changed to a different area where we are doing more hacks and more roadwork and she started to struggle so she now has front shoes on. Did this on recommendation by my farrier who did not "sell" me the shoes but gave genuine recommendation after attempts to leave her barefoot. Her feet are just very flat and prone to bruising. I would always use a farrier I trust to do bare feet and mine of course still cares for her back feet.

 

[eahotson]

No it wasn't a bare foot trimmer who commented on the spooky ones trim.I am loosing a little trust in my bare foot trimmer though. I have noticed that its the surface they are standing on that affects them most. In my last yard the grazing was very wet. Several horses had poor feet.Once they started coming in at night the feet improved.It was me that realized what propbably had affected the newbies feet along with his general make up.I do believet here are fabulous farriers/bare foot trimmers and some very poor ones of both.

 

[Chestnuttymare]

quote I do believet here are fabulous farriers/bare foot trimmers and some very poor ones of both.

Yes but only the farriers have gone through the intesive training for 4 years.
I would pick the fabulous farrier over the fabulous trimmer anyday.
the extreme wet or the extreme dry have effects on their feet.

 

[YorksG]

Shod or unshod, I would have a good farrier trim my horses feet.

 

[Willza]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean by 'correct envirnment' Willza?


[/ QUOTE ]

I mean that horses did not evolve to stand in the same 4 acre paddock 365 days a year and if you want to barefoot a horse this needs to be taken into account.

 

[air78]

Could it be sensitivity brought on from the flush of grass we're getting atm due to all the rain?

I'd try bring the horse in for a few hours a day to A. get it off the grass and B. to allow the feet to dry out properly.

 

[cptrayes]

Farriers may have 4 years training but they in all that 4 years they are not taught how to trim and manage a horse for performance barefoot. Two farriers, one newly qualified and bang up to date and one with over 30 years experience, told me that my flat footed horse could never go barefoot. It took nine months but he evented affiliated at Novice level jumping fences nearly four feet high onto stone landings.

There is now a growing body of evidence that Navicular Syndrome is likely to be a shoe-caused disease. UKNHCP (no I'm not a member) has many farrier members and courses that farriers attend. With Langford (Bristol) University they are running a clinical trial of barefoot as a cure for navicular. Yes a CURE not a treatment. The person running the trial hunts five or more horses which were condemned to death for the condition. People on the UKNHCP forum have many more between them.

Barefoot is not an easy alternative to shoes. The feed must be right (a huge proportion of horses are sensitive to fresh grasses, but shoes numb the feet slightly and shod horses "get away with it"), the movement must be right (moving horses grow foot faster), the conditioning must be right (you can't do ten minutes in an arena during the week and two hours roadwork at weekends) and the trim must be right (the foot does not function without the frog in contact with the floor - try achieving that in shoes). But the rewards, if you can do it, are absolutely huge.

My horses hunt a full day with no shoes, do as much roadwork and stony tracks as I want them to, and work the rest of the time on an arena surfaced with grit.

They aren't barefoot because they have good feet - they have good feet because they have no shoes. Please don't answer this saying that your horses can't do it because of flat feet, cracks, navicular, weak walls, thin soles or anything else. They can't possibly have been more flat than mine, or more cracked/weak/navicular or anything else than the case studies you can see on barefoothorses.co.uk (also not my site, though several of the horses jumping enormous fences are).

Call me evangelistic if you like, because I am. But if I hear of another horse shot because of navicular when a friend of mine hunts a 23 year old that was in heart bars for six years and still lame, I'm going to scream!

 

[TheFarrier]

[ QUOTE ]
bare foot trimmer pointed out --- farrier was only doing a paddock trim

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh*

 

[Enfys]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bare foot trimmer pointed out --- farrier was only doing a paddock trim

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh*

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Chestnuttymare]

Nor did they evolve by standing in a stable or having someone on their back. What can you do if you only have a 4 acre paddock?

 

[Flame_]

[ QUOTE ]
Farriers may have 4 years training but they in all that 4 years they are not taught how to trim and manage a horse for performance barefoot.

[/ QUOTE ]
They are taught to shoe and trim horses taking into consideration their individual needs and this includes the job the horse will be doing. Also, no-one is questioning the fact that wearing no shoes can be very beneficial to some horses, as can wearing shoes to others, just saying that the best person to make the assessment and do the job is a fully trained, qualified, experienced farrier.

 

[eahotson]

NO farrier it was NOT the bare foot trimmer. It was my then riding instructor and I am sorry but the bare foot trimmer did a better job.There are some very good farriers around BUT there are some bad ones as well.

 

[shadowboy]

I am all for horses being shod- I realise that there is a need for it, and that we have changed horses to the point where they often can no longer function 'naturally'. However, it often sickens me the way in which farriers are treated like royalty. Tea, sausage sandwiches and clients tending to their every whim. I understand their job is not easy, that it relies on a well behaved animal weighing in at half a tonne. But their evey word is taken like gospel, and worshiped sometimes almost moreso than we listen to doctors. They cancel appointments, charge a fortune and don't call when they are late. Yet we are in awe of them like they are a special being of person. They are trades people. They are doing this as a business- some have no interest in horses outside of farriery. A friend of mine dated a farrier and he didnt know what type of rug was what, he'd never ridden, he had no concept of their tack - what went where. Yet he was qualified and well paid!

Some (not all) do it because their father did/they didnt know what else to do/they wanted a trade/it paid well/ their mate down the pub who does it is loaded (this is a true reason!).

A barefoot trimmer might do it because they have a genuine interest. There are no courses where you are trained on the job, you must pay your own way through the two years. But although my EP is not perfect, she CARES she does it because of a genuine interest in the care of the animal - she is no 'hippy' she still shoes one of her own horses...

My driving instructor used to be a farrier but injured his back used to tell me all sorts of stories about some farriers which means I take their advice with a pinch of salt, although will use them where necessary, but I dont look at them with dewy eyes like some of the liveries......

 

[ESH]

Sorry if I am Hijacking your thread, but I have some questions of my own that I would like to raise.

I have had a very good barefoot trimmer for a few years now, my boy has never had shoes on and has gone everywhere, even over stoney tracks barefoot with no problem.

However my trimmer has been letting me down with regards to reliability so I have asked my local farrier, who is a very good farrier , spending lots of time making sure foot balance is 100% and has horses himself.

My dilema now is after the farrier trimming my boy just once he has started to be a bit footy on the stone tracks, now it could be that he has recently been hacking out much more than he used too or it could be the change in the trim. I don't know.

I would really love for someone to explain to me exactly what they think the difference is between a barefoot trim and a farrier doing a trim.

The only difference I could see was that he took off more dead frog than the trimmer ever did and used nippers and a knife to trim the foot rather than just a rasp, so maybe he took off more than the trimmer? would this make my horse more footy after just one trim?

 

[Donkeymad]

[ QUOTE ]
Farriers may have 4 years training but they in all that 4 years they are not taught how to trim and manage a horse for performance barefoot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh for god's sake, will you give up this crap

A farrier first learns to trim and manage hooves, for all occasions.

My horses/ponies/donkeys have always been trimmed by, dare I say it, a farrier. They are not happy hackers or show ponies, they WORK.

If people want to use barefoot trimmers, that is fine, same as those that want to use parelli,but for those that want to keep their horses unshod, a fully trained farrier is fully trained and capable of managing the hooves.

Barefoot v's farrier is becoming so much like Parelli, with the followers swallowing every bit of rubbish., along with the good bits.

 

[cptrayes]

"the best person to make the assessment and do the job is a fully trained, qualified, experienced farrier."

If your farrier does not believe that horses can do hours of roadwork unshod then he isn't the best person to assess whether your horse can do it.

Farriers are taught that for roadwork and rough surfaces a horse must be shod. That is simply incorrect, as many of us hunting, eventing and long distance riding on unshod horses now know.

It doesn't help Farriers objectivity that moneywise, for most of them, it's akin to asking a turkey to vote for Christmas.

How much longer can we go on ignoring research that shows that unshod horses have lateral cartilege on average four times as thick as a shod horse? With tiny spirals of blood vessels that are absent in the cartilege of a shod horse? Once you take the frog out of contact with the floor the internal structures atrophy. The fact that most horses will "get away with it" does not justify the death sentences that vets and farriers are still routinely handing down to the substantial minority of horses who can't cope.

Personally, I can't wait until insurance companies cotton on, and start refusing loss of use or death payouts until horses have been through the kind of rehab offered by the founders of the UKNHCP. The rehab which has now saved dozens of "permanently lame" horses from a bullet only to see them go hunting and jumping with no shoes on.

How many more horse have to die and owners hearts have to be broken before the vets and farriers wake up?

 

[abracadabra]

[ QUOTE ]


Farriers are taught that for roadwork and rough surfaces a horse must be shod.


[/ QUOTE ]

ive discussed leaving my 4 year old unshod, with my farriers, to which they (3 were out) told me his feet were good and i should have no problems whatsoever, and if i should feel the need for roadwork/stony hacks, whatever, to use hoof boots

my first horse many years ago also had great feet and my farrier told me in no uncertain terms id be wasting my money to have him shod

i have NEVER had a farrier tell me my horses MUST be shod to work on roads or rough surfaces

 

[cptrayes]

You've been lucky, but even your farrier is telling you that a horse with nothing on its feet can't do roadwork or tracks, he's told you to put boots on. If you need boots, you've probably got the feed, management, conditioning or trim wrong somewhere.

Every time barefoot is featured in a magazine, a farrier and/or a vet is quoted as saying that horses need shoes for roadwork and rough surfaces. It's what they've been taught. People read it and they believe it when it isn't true.

 

[TheFarrier]

I dont believe my word is gospel, i dont treat my cleints like carp and i dont expect tea coffee or anything of the sort. I do my job because i love it. I appologise for farriers out there who do of course.

I am really sorry that people seem to think that fariers dont know anything any more. We have CPD where we have to do a certain amount of extra training every year to keep up with what was current. We do a lot of training for a long period of time and no this is not just about shoes, infact we sepnd an entire year before even bieng allowed to study farriery learning about steel and shaping it and bending it etc etc.

There was a debate recently between farriers and barefoot trimmers and the out come is that the trimmers could not say how what they do is any different to a good trim done by a farrier, be that as it may what bothers me is that anyone who follows the barefoot movement seems to feel that our years of training dont count for anything and that we dont know what we are talking about.

I am not against horses bieng barefoot at all, what i believe is that when the rate of work wearing down the feet exceedes the rate at which the horn grows then either cut back on the work being done or put shoes (or boots) on your horse. Anything else is just cruelty.

I have been doing some research on barefoot trims and looking at as many expamples on the net as i can find. I dont believe that the good ones look any different than a trim i do myself (on working horses) and the ones that were not were shocking. I dont beleive a horses foot should be without quarters and i dont believe that a horses foot ahould be unlevel with parts of the wall not making contact with the floor. Horses were designed to walk flat.

Be all this as it may, it is late, and i just wanted to ay that i cant go to bed without saying that not all farriers are against horses being barefoot. I am neither fanatical about shoes or no shoes, i believe in doing what is best for the horse. That at the end of the day is my job. Call it a trade if you will... i call it a passion

I appologise for any typos or spelling errors as i said its quite late.

 

[abracadabra]

[ QUOTE ]
You've been lucky, but even your farrier is telling you that a horse with nothing on its feet can't do roadwork or tracks, he's told you to put boots on. If you need boots, you've probably got the feed, management, conditioning or trim wrong somewhere.



[/ QUOTE ]

no actually. read my post again and you will see that he said IF I FEEL THE NEED

 

[ESH]

I have a mare that was diagnosed with Navicular 8 years ago. Had tried egg bar shoes, never helped, tried Cytek shoes that kept her sound for a few years then 3 years ago she had problems again, so took her barefoot, with a barefoot trimmer and about 6 months later she became sound but cannot cope with stoney tracks without boots on.

However see my earlier post about switching to a farrier for trimming, do you know exactly what the difference is between a performance barefoot trim and a trim by a farrier?

 

[abracadabra]

[ QUOTE ]
You've been lucky, but even your farrier is telling you that a horse with nothing on its feet can't do roadwork or tracks, he's told you to put boots on. If you need boots, you've probably got the feed, management, conditioning or trim wrong somewhere.

Every time barefoot is featured in a magazine, a farrier and/or a vet is quoted as saying that horses need shoes for roadwork and rough surfaces. It's what they've been taught. People read it and they believe it when it isn't true.

[/ QUOTE ]

i just dont know where you think you get off telling a poster on a forum 'you've probably got the feed, management, conditioning or trim wrong somewhere', when you have no knowledge of that poster, horse, horse management, nothing...

i asked about boots, and from my saying i 'could' use them you get that my farrier is telling me horses cant work without shoes, nowhere in my post does it say he's telling me to use them, it says 'if i feel the need'

[ QUOTE ]
People read it and they believe it when it isn't true.

[/ QUOTE ]

and some people read a sentence, magically decipher what they think it *could* mean, and then elaborate on it!

 

[Chestnuttymare]

I give my farrier the same respect he gives me. He calls when he is going to be late and never doesn't turn up for appointments. And yes he does get tea nad bikkies, he is the man who helps keep my horses happy and healthy.

CPtrayes - you obviously have become very well informed and make the right decisions for you horses, fair play to you. Also the thing about navicular, my friends mare has it. She has had all the treatments going and finally tried taking her shoes off. The result happened overnight and they haven't looked back. It was like a miracle cure. Is there a link to the study you talk of, she would be really interested. Thanks.