Barefoot...again

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Akkalia1

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I am a barefoot novice, also a bit undereducated when it comes to hooves and what I should be looking for in a healthy hoof. My 4yo thoroughbred has been barefoot since about July as her hooves were crumbling around nail holes and she was losing shoes very quickly along with a lot of hoof. Her feet look a lot better now but she does feel her feet still, infinitely better than my previous TB mind you. Her front hooves are also a different shape as one lost more hoof than the other.

Anyway I'm thinking of sticking with barefoot and have bought some renegade vipers for hacking. But I would like to learn more about what a healthy hoof should look like, and how to achieve and maintain that. I'm not convinced her hooves are balanced very well and the soles and frogs probably aren't great.

Can anyone (ester, cough cough) point me in the direction of a good source of information for the basics here? I've looked at the rockley blog which I suspect will be helpful further down the line but really need the basics at the moment.

I can post some hoof pictures for the hoof geeks among you as I took some for hoof boot advice. Will post them later once I've uploaded to photobucket.
 
Oh Lordy! Now don't go promising pics and not delivering!

Lucy priory's blog is worth going through and I've just spotted she has started posting again :). Pete ramey has some nice pics but keeps most of it for his books I think. Think I've spent some time on fran jurgas hoof blog too.

I did have a copy of feet first too but it went wallows after about the 5th loan.
 
Have a look at these:
http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/healthy_hooves.html
http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/unhealthy_hooves.html

But take any pictures with a grain of salt. In the end, pretty is as pretty does, and there are many stomping horses out there with "ugly" hooves, while others look very nice and still the horse struggles over some surfaces.

I second the recommendation for Pete Ramey's stuff. He has some free articles (now maybe a bit out of date, but much cheaper than his book, and easy to understand) on his webpage:
http://www.hoofrehab.com/Articles.html
 
Thank you both, I will look at all that! I've been struggling all evening with a painfully slow internet connection and haven't managed to get photos uploaded but i will tomorrow, promise!
 
Ok, hoof photos...hopefully!

Near fore

Off fore

Near hind

Off hind


Near fore sole

Off fore sole

Near hind sole

Off hind sole

Front views

Rear view

The beast in question!


These photos were taken a few days after a trim, I think she was taken a bit short on the fronts.
 
Ooh good pics how exciting! At work so briefly they do look a bit flat in front - very familiar to me- so that is probably at least part of the soreness as they are going to come into contact with every unevenness then. I'd get some hoof stuff into those front frogs. Back of foot def has improvement to come, I think for some booting can actually help that a bit, was just saying the same to someonelse as they stride out better and load the back of the hoof more if they are a bit flat soles and protective otherwise.
 
The hinds are better than the fores which are a little under-run with poor digital cushions but by now you should have well balanced hooves so if you're not, make sure you find someone with a lot of performing barefoot horses in their care.
 
They are quite flat yes, so she struggles with stones. She potters along on tarmac cautiously barefoot but if she meets a stone it obviously hurts. Sound as a pound on soft ground. She even seems to feel stones through the renegades.

Must get some reading done as I just have no clue what I want to achieve and how to do it.

I have some red horse field paste which i just received and was planning on putting on once a week to help soles and frogs, put some on this morning. I also bought some artimud as since these photos she's developed a crevice on each front sole between hoof and white line. You can see the beginning of it in the near fore sole photo. So was planning to stuff them with the artimud. I think this is basically the same as hoof stuff but with a slightly stickier formula so I could apply that to frog crevices too couldn't I instead of buying hoof stuff as well?
 
Thanks tallyho, the fronts are certainly the weaker ones. I think the problem I had was she lost so much hoof in July particularly on one front foot that it's been hard getting them back to a good shape and a matching pair, which I don't think they are yet. I think maybe I need to have a chat with my farrier to develop a plan of action. In terms of how balanced they are again I'm not totally sure what I'm looking for so am going to educate myself!
 
Akkalia1 said:
They are quite flat yes, so she struggles with stones. She potters along on tarmac cautiously barefoot but if she meets a stone it obviously hurts. Sound as a pound on soft ground. She even seems to feel stones through the renegades.

Must get some reading done as I just have no clue what I want to achieve and how to do it.

I have some red horse field paste which i just received and was planning on putting on once a week to help soles and frogs, put some on this morning. I also bought some artimud as since these photos she's developed a crevice on each front sole between hoof and white line. You can see the beginning of it in the near fore sole photo. So was planning to stuff them with the artimud. I think this is basically the same as hoof stuff but with a slightly stickier formula so I could apply that to frog crevices too couldn't I instead of buying hoof stuff as well?
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Yes I would to get rid of the thrush, red horse paste is really good for that. If you don't mind, could I ask what you currently feed?
 
Don't mind at all. She gets Timothy hay chop, hi-fibre cubes, speedibeet and micronised linseed. Along with forage plus hoof and skin winter balancer and digestive supplement. Ad lib hay.

About to swap the chop and nuts for thunderbrooks stuff as the sugar/starch contents are lower I think.
 
stencilface said:
I feed mine high fibre cubes with no problems, he's sugar sensitive on grass, but is fine on this feed.
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The main reason I was going to swap her off these is I can't find an ingredients list so am not sure if there's alfalfa in them? Wanted to cut alfalfa out after advice that it may be adding to the bonkers-ness!
 
I keep coming back to the sole pics in front now on computer, they seem to tell a slightly different story to the side on pics. I can't quite decide from the sole pics where her heels actually stop and whether it it is making it look like they need to come back or whether that is because of the frog/rest of the back of the foot not coming out to meet them if that makes sense.

I would say at this point they look like the feet of a horse that is not using the back of its feet as it should do, are you aware how she is landing in front? As these were taken for boots I am wondering whether working in boots might help her with that. I have never seen a renegade in real life (I'm an easyboot gloves bird by accident) so can't really say about her still feeling stuff with them on, I'm not sure if you have any pad options with them though I would start without anyway.

Any option to get a second opinion on her feet if you are worried? I'm not sure farrier is doing a bad job but the are feet I would expect to be further on than they are by now so someone on the ground able to advise a bit more holistically might be helpful?
 
Hmmm I think I probably would like a second opinion but not sure who there is in my area. I'm near Dundee in Scotland. Wonder if part of the reason the fronts in particular aren't where they should be is because of the amount of hoof she lost? She's also not been doing much work, certainly not on hard ground even with boots as we took a step back to groundwork which I mainly did in the field. We've only recently started hacking again. I suspect she lands toe first, will analyse at the weekend!
 
In the summer when her hoof crumbled around the nails she lost the shoe along with a lot of hoof up to where the nail holes were. She got re-shod that time with a shoe two sizes smaller due to the amount she'd lost. The same thing happened again within two weeks of being shod but on both front feet this time so she lost hoof on both front feet but particularly badly on the one that had crumbled twice. They looked awful, I didn't take photos unfortunately. It was at that point we decided there was no point shoeing her for the foreseeable future as she'd have no hoof left! She had great looking feet when she came to me but just had front racing plates on, farrier thought the reason they were now crumbling was because her feet weren't used to the wet/dry cycle she was now getting being turned out all the time - she was most likely kept stabled 24/7 prior to coming to me.

Thank you very much for that link, the lady in Fife should come out to me I would think. Some people told me to be careful with barefoot trimmers as they're not always qualified and they're not regulated? But if her feet aren't where you would expect it's maybe wise to have someone else take a look who's more focussed on barefoot?
 
Aanchp if I've spelt that right too, but I'm only personally familiar with the uk set up.

They aren't regulated and no they aren't always qualified - and qualifications vary quite widely but if you can look at the righ organisations you can find out what they have done, and ask them etc ask them what horses they have on their books etc.

You don't have to let them do anything either ;) when we started I had her out for a chat, decided whether to do it and whether to do it with her and then went ahead. Most will happily come and consult and not trim if you aren't happy.

My farrier admitted he hadn't a clue about rehabbing barefoot so suggested I get a trimmer ;) pony was lame, partly as a result of his shoeing and he would have like to go the wedges and pads route. For the last 3 years I have done him myself and now he is the other side of the country that farrier is now doing him again just fine- well after some strict instructions ;) because he has a sorted foot to work with but he wouldn't have known how to encourage it to sort itself.
 
Thanks Tallyho, will take a look.

ester said:
My farrier admitted he hadn't a clue about rehabbing barefoot so suggested I get a trimmer ;) pony was lame, partly as a result of his shoeing and he would have like to go the wedges and pads route. For the last 3 years I have done him myself and now he is the other side of the country that farrier is now doing him again just fine- well after some strict instructions ;) because he has a sorted foot to work with but he wouldn't have known how to encourage it to sort itself.
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This is what I'm a little worried about. I'm not sure how much my farrier works with horses who are barefoot and in work if you know what I mean. And I'm no expert so I just let him do his thing.

I'll have a look and pick someone to come and have a chat with me. Terrified of getting someone who makes a mess!

Do you think it's important to get someone used to doing thoroughbreds? I know they are just horses of course but the little I've read so far suggests that especially with racehorses who are shod so early, the digital cushions don't get a chance to develop properly so their feet don't have the best start in life and so you're having to sort out a long period of problems. Maybe that's why Luna's hinds are better than her fronts, I don't think she'd ever been shod behind, she certainly just had fronts on when she came to me.
 
ester said:
My farrier admitted he hadn't a clue about rehabbing barefoot so suggested I get a trimmer ;) pony was lame, partly as a result of his shoeing and he would have like to go the wedges and pads route. For the last 3 years I have done him myself and now he is the other side of the country that farrier is now doing him again just fine- well after some strict instructions ;) because he has a sorted foot to work with but he wouldn't have known how to encourage it to sort itself.
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Omg, I think I would fall over if my farrier said anything close to resembling that! I don't bring my horse in when the farrier is there as I can't be bothered to deal with any questions.

My mum asked a few weeks ago if I wanted the farrier to trim my horses feet. I swiftly said no, he loves to trim a frog and I don't think would listen if I asked him not to. Let's just say my horses frogs are a bit rubbish atm, but I don't want them trimmed!

That night I had a dream he'd put shoes back on him and I cried :D :D
 
If they are on the uknchp list then they are likely coming from a less is more mentality.

Hinds are generally better anyway, you can certainly talk to them about her being a tb but I'd don't think it will matter too much.

We made frank sore twice while trying to encourage improvements minimal change made!, firstly his heels and later his bars, we didn't do either again (only sore for a couple of days) and he soon reverted to how it was.

SF he was interested while we were doing it and we were trying to sort out a time where him and trimmer could be there together and have a chat about it.

I did tell him if he messed up now frank would soon let him know ;)
 
ester said:
Aanchp if I've spelt that right too, but I'm only personally familiar with the uk set up.

They aren't regulated and no they aren't always qualified - and qualifications vary quite widely but if you can look at the righ organisations you can find out what they have done, and ask them etc ask them what horses they have on their books etc.
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I'm not sure if thats right ester, only EPAUK are self-regulated and approved by LANTRA since 2006 and currently the only body to have an approved training programme. Also, I think since 2011, UKNHCP trimmers also have to train under EPAUK.

OP, just make sure you have a trained trimmer. I can see two in Scotland. http://www.epauk.org/membership/our-members/map/

AANHCP is the American version of UKNHCP and they both promote natural equine services whereas EPAUK is only a trimming foundation.
 
Oh the whole lantra thing got complicated for me I do remember it coming up uk wise too. I did mean they aren't regulated legally outside of their organisations, and there are trimmers totally outside of any organisation.
 
Oh thank you Regandal, it's great to have a recommendation for someone nearby. She is on the website link ester gave me but not on the trained trimmers link Tallyho showed me so got a bit confused. She is pretty close to me though so will contact her for a chat.

Said horse now seems a little lame in trot on hard ground. It was hard to tell last night what foot it was on as was playing about with my back renegades trying to get them set right (they're on hire atm) and she seems to find them a little uncomfortable, think the heel captivators might be a little large and digging into her pasterns, she was taking very short strides on the back in trot. So combined with this it was hard to tell but looked lame on a front foot - the one with the white line gouge which has got bigger. Gaaaaaaahhhhhhh! Farrier going to come and have a look at it and it is currently packed with artimud.
 
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